Veteran Marines: Put in the Stronghold?

[Torpid]

That's wraithguard not webways. Wraithguard are such a stupid unit, worst unit addition ever.

Anyways. There is another stupid tactic you can do in 2v2 which is hilariously effective. Play RA, go 3x Horms + BSWB. Have an ally as the PC, he goes bile spewer + noise marines. Play normally, pressuring your foe as much as possible with your horms so he lacks MC, retreat, let him cap the mid of the map then fully reinforce everything and let chaos get in your tunnel network. Dig a tunnel behind one of your foes base, out comes 3x horms+BSWB, nm and 3x horms. The PC+NM swiftly take down the turrets, and you can cover them from ranged fire via hive nodes + the BSWB, horms protect them form being tied up in melee. Once you destroy the base turrets the PC should build some of his own turrets in their place, it makes that player unable to retreat, else he retreats straight into turret fire and is devoured by hormagaunts. It's pretty lulzy.

[appiah4]

just seeing enemy HQ area not= baserape...
destroy webway before they come, 250hp long CD built time
(or just ignore and go for VP-s, genbash)

If I see the area I can drop a nuke, or call in something else entirely, what's your point? And yes the WWG can be destroyed, IF YOU NOTICE IT. The Sternguard can also be destroyed, and are impossible not to notice.

And you know what, there are armies that can drop in more dangerous things vs base turrets than a Sternguard into your base, like Kommandos. And they don't.

You know why?

It's stupid.

[Dark Riku]

Yeah... Wth Riku

Yeah... WTH Torpid.

Why doed anything need power melee? To deal with (S)HI. DUH! ASM don't scale mighty well due to the lower stat increase per level. Nothing in the SM roster seems to be meant to take on anything on their own ~~

"Just because something sucks doesn't mean it should become better."
This is absolute gold! XD I can't believe you even wrote that. °_0

Whirlwind, just as much as the libby are useless units.
Niche situations? You mean 3v3 game mode? -.-
There is absolutely no situation where you want to get these things.

No, I'm not mis-defining anything. Vanguards can't be used in any competitive 1v1 game. I bloody tried. They are UP.

For your other question would you be so kind to read the rest of the fucking thread where you'll find all your answers.

Anyways. There is another stupid tactic you can do in 2v2 which is hilariously effective.

Such great addition to this discussion!


Again Faultron. Nothing you say makes any sense already explained to you.
Please stop for your own sake...

[Faultron]

libby totally viable in 1v1, maybe not every MU but viable.

even more call ins for SM in T2 and T3
this is the most lulzi op shit thing i ever heard

i know it is christmas soon, but this is not the right place:)

[Torpid]

Oh Mr. Riku, will you please stop bullshitting with me and discuss my points properly please. It's impossible to talk to you without you quote mining my posts, case in point "Just because something sucks doesn't mean it should become better", when in this case I qualify that statement later on in the same paragraph. What does this serve, ridicule, lulz, shits and giggles, ad hominem? I don't know, but it doesn't seem to have much of a purpose, how about you respond to what I actually said and stop making straw-man arguments like a politician.

Call-in vanguards would for very very obvious reasons demand a red cost, I for one don't want vanguards to have a red cost as they cost enough as it is and even in t2 would still do.

Regarding UP, I would say something is UP if it fails to sufficiently perform its role as a unit. The role of the unit is dictated by Caeltos ultimately for new units or by the meta otherwise. A problem arises from this which leads to my saying that UP doesn't necessarily imply that it needs a buff. You see the role may be unnecessary, there may other possibilities to perform that role, in the case of the need for extra HI/SHI, I really don't think SM struggle with that, tacs do nicely with their kraken bolts/plasma gun of course, but ASM can stall HI ranged units for ages as it is and (S)HI such as ogryns/KCSM are meant to be able to deal with ASM. Dreads do great too in all forms, as do P devs and their t3 - at least as well as orks/nids/eldar/chaos... oh, that's nearly all races. SM don't need a power melee squad in t2, I'm not buying it, I don't see it as a necessary role that must be fulfilled - they have gone on for so long without this being a problem, do you think that was due to the libby smite? I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to say no. I would like to know why Caeltos wanted to add vans/sterns in the first place, Caeltosian insight into these things helps push these discussions in the correct direction as we can see the implementation of units in a light other than our own biased and broken light.

And no Riku. Nothing in the SM roster is meant to take stuff on on their own. Oh wow, have you just realised how SM macro works?

SM are about not bleeding, but bleeding your foe and snowballing via the inevitable dispropotionate experience gains you get from that. It is all about unit-unit AND simultaneous hero-unit synergy, it is about blobbing to ensure you don't bleed while capping everything with scouts. This furthers my point - SM aren't meant to have a unit that can take on things like KCSM or banshees, or any other counter-initiation unit on their own.

Whirlwind is only useful in 3v3, but the libby/vanguard are not. That doesn't say much though.

Regarding "For your other question would you be so kind to read the rest of the fucking thread where you'll find all your answers." If it is already on the thread couldn't you just copy-paste it, sorry I don't have a perfect memory and despite reading the entirety of the balance section of this forum I can't remember everything that happens. How did I know you had already answered it, do you really think I have the time to read through 13 pages for the sake of it? Besides you don't even debate with me anyway so what's the damn point in taking it that serious? I'm trying to shape up the discussions here because they are going absolutely nowhere, but you're really not helping.

[appiah4]

Wat?

Are Torpid and Riku one and the same, or who's arguing what here? This post completely lost me. Congratulations. I have no idea what you are arguing anymore.

[Dark Riku]

Regarding "For your other question would you be so kind to read the rest of the fucking thread where you'll find all your answers."
If it is already on the thread couldn't you just copy-paste it,

Go look it up yourself you lazy fuck.
Something I encourage you to do about the rest of this game too.

SM are about not bleeding, but bleeding your foe and snowballing via the inevitable dispropotionate experience gains you get from that. It is all about unit-unit AND simultaneous hero-unit synergy, it is about blobbing to ensure you don't bleed while capping everything with scouts. This furthers my point - SM aren't meant to have a unit that can take on things like KCSM or banshees, or any other counter-initiation unit on their own.

Nobody has troubles getting exp from SM. They give more exp in Elite. I'm assuming you don't know this. Too bad scouts get forced of by every other unit and die like flies.

Talking to you is a waste of time. All you do is talk in circles with no real meaning or conclusion and insult anyways.

Wat?

Are Torpid and Riku one and the same, or who's arguing what here? This post completely lost me. Congratulations. I have no idea what you are arguing anymore.

I's Torpid's non existing brain at work here. Try not to pay much attention to it.
It's quite the weed though. Can't be reasoned with

[Magus Magi]

Without seeking to agitate anyone, I think there is significant precedent for tier 2 power weapon melee squads.

Getting a Vanguard veteran squad means ridding yourself of the meltabomb and existing assault marine levels, which limits your synergy with other tier 2 sources of AV damage and your survivability in the late game (loss of hp derived from levels).

If the Vanguard Veteran power fist upgrade remained a tier 3 option, it would mean that getting Vanguard Veterans in tier 2 would serve much the same purpose as getting purifiers. The trade offs would still be there (loss of melta). It would also reward good SM play by allowing experienced players to get a little XP on their Vanguard before entering the late game.

Caeltos seems fond of pointing out that this is a Beta, a chance to test new unit ideas. Tier 2 Vanguard might turn out to be a horrible idea, but it never hurts to test it out. It might be just right.

[Forestradio]

If your ASM are level three or more, don't buy vans, especially if they have melta bombs

If your ASM are level two or lower (and they really shouldn't) then you can consider vans, but tbh I'd rather save for assault termies or a pred

[Sub_Zero]

and they really shouldn't

You know it is kinda common to have low level assault marines in mirror matches if both players are good enough to preserve models.

[Caeltos]

Nobody has troubles getting exp from SM. They give more exp in Elite. I'm assuming you don't know this. Too bad scouts get forced of by every other unit and die like flies.

I think it's abit more complicated then that. Infact, I'd prefer to use the term that it's tweaked. Scouts gives considerably less experience, whereas there were increases on other units.

However, considering that the beefier units die less - the exp proportion and value changes, I would be more inclined to suggest that the experience gain is more of an improvement (Narrowing it down to just individualistically the Space Marine EXP changes atm, but it's important to consider the other misc. changes to Towers/Gates/Etc.) with how things pan out in the long process.

As an example, and I hope I got my exp list right;

- Scouts give 100 exp, compared to 130 (retail)
- Tacticals give 230 exp, compared to 200 (retail)

It's more likely that you'll suffer numerous scout losses, meaning reaping the rewards from those is more difficult, whereas the Tacticals/ASMs/and alike are more difficult, you'll see less overall pay-off from the general scout-bleed proffiency

So, the more scouts you have, the less snowbally the opposition potential is presented, assuming you can keep them alive. Whereas the most default, cookie-standard oriented builds, are more likely to see less pay-off , due to the higher exp value rewards from kills & etc.

Which of course, all are intended by design when I originally made it back like 2 years ago. Scout heavier builds are, I guess more common-ground now, since there's less of an uphill battle if things goes wrong. But I would NOT say that it's a nerf to the overall Space Marine experience architecture, that's just abit bias.

[Dark Riku]

I agree on your post above Caeltos. And yes, your figures seem to be accurate. That's what I have here too at least ^^

But I would NOT say that it's a nerf to the overall Space Marine experience architecture, that's just abit bias.

Good thing I never said that was the case
(Because I'm under the impression you think I did, I could be wrong here.)

[xerrol nanoha]

What if veteran squads couldn't level up, but their base stats were the equivalent of being level 4 by default. That way people would be less upset about wasting upgrades/exp levels on their normal squad when upgrading (since upgrading would give virtual max level)

[Magus Magi]

I would not object to this idea. ^

That said...I think that automatically granting level 4 stats would require a sizeable cost increase to the SG/VG upgrade cost...

If SG/VG had the equivalent of level 2 stats automatically, or level 3, and didn't level, I suspect that might seem a more attractive option to those worried about SG and VG over performing.

Still like the thought though. It would neatly sidestep all of the concerns that players have about level loss on Tacs and Assault marines while providing the SM player (and their opponent) with a consistent SG/VG experience. Consistency is good right?

[Torpid]

Are Torpid and Riku one and the same, or who's arguing what here? This post completely lost me. Congratulations. I have no idea what you are arguing anymore.

Despite what Riku says, in reality we are just two cheeks from the same arse.

[Vapor]

Are Torpid and Riku one and the same, or who's arguing what here? This post completely lost me. Congratulations. I have no idea what you are arguing anymore.

Despite what Riku says, in reality we are just two cheeks from the same arse.

Then who's the asshole?

[Dark Riku]

Giving them instant stats of lvl 4 seems OP in my eyes.
Instant 74MS isn't a small thing to have.

Then who's the asshole?

I'm not sure. I don't talk to that thing. But we are definitely sitting on Toilailee.