Project Balance: Tyranid section

[Faultron]

hahaa sory but my informations are correct, you guys should prove ur own nonsense, before u threat me.

about units size i may did mistake yes, cos i didnt checked those values and it doesnt rly help u at all (and it is easy to fail those 2 btw) , about my statement with the 2 weapon...doing mistake is not a big thing, especially here when it is not even relevant to the discussion...

did u even read my post about the 2 weapon and , tested ingame....

so at ur point u say venom weapons for nids doing same dmg like falcon cannon( and act like that) cos they have splash? splash dont add+ dmg on single model just cos it is splash as i know.or if yes it is weird and should be changed.

u guys should rly post better, like calmed down, and good mannered behave.
this forum is a shame
if anybody ask or try to suggest something everybdy go crazy all time and rant basicly, without explain and prove anything.

not to mention i was asking just something simple, and ppl were gribbing out only few things about my post which they tought it is incorrect, and started fighting against me again....then i proved it is correct.

then u lulgrim come here and basicly doing the same,
no numbers or ingame proof just posting whatever that i should stop
what i have to stop? asking?lol
kvek said fex BS is not plasma cannon he thought it is barbed strangler family weapon, but nobody want to kill him
dark riku said and others said
venom cannon is the same brightlance, which is incorrect only on paper.nobody wants to kill them


then did a mistake with unit size avatar and termies and u want to kill me...which is so pointless, i put them only for imagination basicly, doesnt change anything about the venom cannon discussion.

but yea i am bad person and stupid u are right, gratz

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i was referring to damage, not accuracy. you're also looking at the weapons themselves, not the weapon families and damage types. i was looking at the damage types for the weapon multiplier values. venom cannon is more accurate, baring large targets.

side note, i think i figured out why the pulse laser sucks against loaded transports; page says that venom_cannon family has attack occupants flagged.

[Faultron]

Fex venom cannon is brightlance family, armor piercing damage. Splash of 2 and damage of 0.6 between 0.5 - 1.5 distance and 0.4 between 1.5 - 2.0 distance makes it stronger vs. infantry than lascannons. Now calm down.

Avatar is not huge, only Land Raiders are. Terminators are large, not medium. Stop spamming incorrect information or I will stop it.

Does splash damage give+dmg on single models? or it means only area damage, but same damage for all target, with modifier?

fex do 90 dmg per hit, 1 model from 10 will suffer 90 hit points(if he is able to do full), and around range 2+reduced splash dmg ?

or it does 90 basic+splash damage?(with modifier change) to every single model in area 2

2. question
does splash dmg multiplies with model number in area of 2?
(i mean high model like 10 will suffer more damge per model, then 3-5 model infantry with same type of armor)

[Uncle Milty]

Faultron, just to let you know:
This is Lulgrim's forum and you shouldn't be bitchy, especially around him.

And: You indeed behave a lil bit different then all those other guys who post questionable content because you try to prove everybody wrong and you don't seem to realize that your sources might be out of date.
Lulgrim is one of the modders, so naturally he has a more detailed insight than you. If he states something you can be sure that his statements are profoundly researched.

But nontheless i try to explain again, why the venom cannon fex does good damage to infantry besides being brightlance weapon family:

We all know that av doesn't hit infantry reliably. That means its shots usually land somewhere else but not on the target.
If a lascannon hits its target (even if it is infantry) it will do the full damage multiplied with the dmg modifier. Same goes for the venom cannon. This just doesn't happen regulairly.
The venom cannon however does have splash. This means that it might hurt its target even if it misfired, when the actual impact point is somewhere near its target, so that models are hit by its splash. A VC doesn't hit infantry better than a brightlance does. It just splashes his damage into infantry blobs and that's why it is sometimes not totally terrible against those.
How the splash for it is defined can be read in Lulgrim's post. The impact point will take the full damage * dmg modifier in up to 0.5 range around. 0.5-1.5 will do 0.6*weapon damage*dmg modifier and so on. One model will only be hit once per shot, so if the shot happens to hit spot on, the model won't take both the full damage as well as splash damage.
The splash damage won't multiply by the number of targets it hits. But naturally all those targets will take damage thus making the shot do more combined damage than it would do to a single model.

To reiterate:
You do know that i work on the detailed tooltips, i explained you, how to use cope's tool and you still gather your information from outdated websites. If you'd chacked the update time there you could have noticed that it is not up-to-date.
Do not try to state anyone wrong based on information there. You can provide a link and ASK, if those information do still apply. Most of the time however they don't.

[Kvek]

hahaa sory but my informations are correct, you guys should prove ur own nonsense, before u threat me.

about units size i may did mistake yes, cos i didnt checked those values and it doesnt rly help u at all (and it is easy to fail those 2 btw) , about my statement with the 2 weapon...doing mistake is not a big thing, especially here when it is not even relevant to the discussion...



u guys should rly post better, like calmed down, and good mannered behave.
this forum is a shame
if anybody ask or try to suggest something everybdy go crazy all time and rant basicly, without explain and prove anything.

not to mention i was asking just something simple, and ppl were gribbing out only few things about my post which they tought it is incorrect, and started fighting against me again....then i proved it is correct.

then u lulgrim come here and basicly doing the same,
no numbers or ingame proof just posting whatever that i should stop
what i have to stop? asking?lol
kvek said fex BS is not plasma cannon he thought it is barbed strangler family weapon, but nobody want to kill him
dark riku said and others said
falcon venom cannon and fex venom cannon is the same brightlance, which is incorrect not even same weapon family on paper.nobody wants to kill them


then did a mistake with unit size avatar and termies and u want to kill me...which is so pointless, i put them only for imagination basicly, doesnt change anything about the venom cannon discussion.

but yea i am bad person and stupid u are right, gratz

I said it's an anti infantry AoE weapon, i never said it's a barbled strangler family type weapon...
You should make better posts too, and if you haven't noticed everybody disagrees with you, like literally everybody...

[Faultron]

@kvek

I defined u think it is only anti normal infantry weapon, cos u said how is good vs HI and SHI, when it it a plasma cannon.but yes the basic dmg is low, however it has suppression aoe, and hits the target easier then , plasma devastators.
and if ppl disagree with me thats alright, but u have to explain to me why.

@Milty
i usually never bitching around, until somebody starts it
to prevent this in forum here, it is easy and fast.for example here, somebody should just tell me what u did+lulgrim with the stat info.and not starting a discussion about something else, that if am wrong or right, even if so u can still explain me why i am not right, but with backed up source.

my original question was this,
still dont know what is the bug here with carnifex, only the fire rate problem? why we dont solve this with decreased base damage?
and the only answer i got for it was from kvek saying it is 700/200 cost unit so,of course it is strong.

[Faultron]

so the 0,05 small infatry size modifier is out dated or just doesnt apply to splash,only for the basic damage which hits only 1 model if ever hits?

@milty
lascannon doesnt do full damage to small infatry if hits, only highly reduced damage

[Kvek]

so the 0,05 small infatry size modifier is out dated or just doesnt apply to splash,only for the basic damage which hits only 1 model if ever hits?

@milty
lascannon doesnt do full damage to small infatry if hits, only highly reduced damage

Lascannons do 100% damage to infantry, but they don't hit infantry usually
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/SM_Lascannon
and in case you are talking about twinlinked one :S
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/S ... n_Predator

[Faultron]

so the 0,05 small infatry size modifier is out dated or just doesnt apply to splash,only for the basic damage which hits only 1 model if ever hits?

@milty
lascannon doesnt do full damage to small infatry if hits, only highly reduced damage

Lascannons do 100% damage to infantry, but they don't hit infantry usually
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/SM_Lascannon
and in case you are talking about twinlinked one :S
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/S ... n_Predator

so what the size damage modifier on the site is not damage modifier, but accuracy?
sry i didnt know that, and i saw ingame my brightlance platform(eldar) doing 20-30 damage to infantry, but never 90(the full damage)

sry to all the missunderstanding from, false stat reading lead me the way how i understood the damage(wrong)

[Lulgrim]

everybdy go crazy all time and rant basicly, without explain and prove anything.

That's exactly what I told you to stop doing! You have posted 11 confusing rambles in this thread now with bullshit claims about VC damage and your proof seems to be "lol". Seriously?

then u lulgrim come here and basicly doing the same,
no numbers or ingame proof

I don't even

then did a mistake with unit size avatar and termies and u want to kill me...which is so pointless, i put them only for imagination basicly, doesnt change anything about the venom cannon discussion.

It's not a great deal since everyone else knows. But you not knowing Terminator size means you probably shouldn't be starting heated arguments about stats...

Why don't you take a break and think about stuff.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the bright lance does greatly reduced damage with beam scorch.

anyway, now that this has all been cleared up...

[DarkGod]

I have noticed that in several games the Swarmlord has a bug where it goes after one model and does not stop. It cannot be controlled and is then lured back to base to be destroyed. Anyone else notice this?

[Orkfaeller]

Its known as "walker rage", all walkers seem to be affected by it, some claim, some walkers more than others.

Dont think thats something you can fix.

[Dark Riku]

I've only had if with a Wraithlord once that I can remember. But I believe using the stop command reverts this. Never heard about the SL doing this Just spamming buttons (if stop command doesn't work) and tabbing in and out can fix these things.

[DarkGod]

Oh right okay I didn't know that. Thanks for the tip Dark Riku.

[Dark Riku]

Just make sure you look at your units for possible upgrades you accidentally hit
I use the "spam buttons" to fix when my screen is suddenly stuck and it turns with mouse movement instead of shifting.

[Torpid]

Bringing up the steam overlay often fixes these issues.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

If u wanna balance tyra onlu need to do one thing. Raise the price on warriors makes no sense that u get such an amazing unit for a non existent cost

[Kvek]

If u wanna balance tyra onlu need to do one thing. Raise the price on warriors makes no sense that u get such an amazing unit for a non existent cost

That won't balance nids, they need more tweaks than this.

Doom needs to be at least for 800/150 and more :S

[Magus Magi]

I just took a quick peek back through the other posts on this thread, and I've seen some mention of the Tyrant Guard as it relates to unit balance. I'm interested to hear what people think of it.

My feeling is that they perform very well right now...but I haven't played very much as Tyranids and I don't feel entirely confident of my opinions regarding them.

I do wonder about the effectiveness of the "Shield Wall" ability specifically. If the regenerative power of shield wall were increased, but the ability did not grant the Tyrant Guard vehicle armor, I feel as though it might help decrease the overall power of the Tyranids in tier 2 and slow down their ascension to Nid-zilla in tier 3. I'm hoping that the shield wall ability would remain useful as a heal, or for tanking damage, but would allow players an easier time cracking the Tyrant Guard if they made the choice to pool all their fire on it (or if they successfully isolated it from the rest of the tyranid army).

Earlier in this thread Tex made a comment about Tyrant Guard backed by Zoanthropes...

TEX:
"I have found that nid T2 could very well be the best in the game, and it is largely due to zoanthropes. The snare they have is definitely on the OP bubble. Right now the only saving grace is that it still bugs out against transports that have units inside.

Tyrant guards supported by rippers and zoans is something I still can't quite figure out how to counter if I was the other player. This is a crazy thing to deal with and I will continue to exploit it lol."

He also referenced the power of the Thornback Carnifex. I should know this off the top of my head, but I can't remember if the Thornback is the only variety of Fex that can spawn rippers...if it is, maybe the other two Fexes could get that ability as a way of buffing them. Getting a venom cannon carnifex, then getting rippers to slow a vehicle, in order to counteract the fex's inability to fire while moving, might inspire some interesting tactical maneuvers.

Again...I know painfully little about Nids...I'd be interested to hear more from you guys though. Browsing these forums and reading your ideas is a valuable part of my daily procrastination.

[Dark Riku]

The other variants get spore mines spawn. And the other one get's a targeted damage ability. And they are all free too after upgrade :/ just CD based.

[Bahamut]

If u wanna balance tyra onlu need to do one thing. Raise the price on warriors makes no sense that u get such an amazing unit for a non existent cost

actually, warriors by themselves are quite bad in combat, they got the freaking awesome leap knocking back units, but then they have to kite away. Even tactical marines with sarge can beat them in melee on their own, which is fine

@magus

Vanilla fex (vanilla one right out of the base) doesnt spawn anything

Thornback fex (melee one with charge) spawns free rippers

Barbed Strangler fex (the one that supresses in a big aoe) spawns free spore mines

Venom Cannon fex (the shooty one) doesnt spawn anything

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Sarges are t2 which woyld correspobd with adrenal glands. Im srry 300 25 for a 3 unit squad with power melee provides basic synapse and has an amazing leap kb how does that make sense at all. Seriously

[Torpid]

Because it grants no suppression counter for a significant cost and also gaunts without power investment are significantly weaker and also the main nid suppression counter - ravs, are pretty shitty. Nid t1 has always been strong and that is not the issue here, that held true in retail too. The issue is the economic wonder that is endless swarm, the very strong AV potential of zoanthropes considering they are a set-up team counter, the cheapness of tyrant guards at the moment and the difficulty regarding killing them due to towers and their shieldwall (which could probably cost more energy), towers giving the very fast nid army even more mobility and then the DOM making tyranid t3 absolutely perfect at countering everything.

Then there is the lictor alpha.

[Tex]

Well said sir. That is pretty much a decent wrap of the issues.

Speaking of wrapping the issues, I will be finishing up this chapter of project balance within the week and I definitely have a large list of recommendations.

[Magus Magi]

The other variants get spore mines spawn. And the other one get's a targeted damage ability. And they are all free too§after upgrade) :/ just CD based.

Free is...a thing...

Can't wait to see the final recommendations list, it's like Tex has taken on the role of ELITE mod Inspector General.

[Rataxas]

Way to nerf nids :

- Cap Towers - Hard cap on 3-4 max no more.
- Hook nerf - 100 sniper dmg ? and can bring any model in to nids army ? It should do no dmg at all and can works like a knob assins knife ability with knock back + stun. With no dmg !!!

- Economic aspects of nids, if you will notice ( on good players i say not on nuub replayes or fucked up games ) nids dont bleed with expensive units such like Warriors. Usally they can lose 4-5 modles of terma / horma in squad , the cost of single model in T2 is around 8-10 req !!!!!!!! in T1 around 16-20 req ? .
Hormas / Termas are faster , cheaper , better than lets say shootas , you need to buy nob leader + BS on shootas what makes them 45 power cost ! + rest ! + they bleed , + they does not have synaps in T2.
- Economic aspects of nids 2 , if as a nid player i will get horma , terma terma i got no upkeep penalyty ( or do i ? but not big ? ) think if i will keep my popcap less than 30/100 my army wont suffer on upkeep ?

- Zoantrop , Heal for all army , 2 zoans can easly heal faster than HQ ? Stun on vehs almost without cooldown , and they do not deploy to fire. I would lower the heal rate , and give them deploy time before shoot same as dcanon or devplasma.

- Warriors BS , the problem with them is that they dont have deploy time , can fire 360 degree and have HI armor which makes them harder to kill for races without plasma / power melee in T1. I would change that giving them deploy time before shoot , lower their HP if they will get BS on around 600-700 , HB is around 625 hp ?

- Warrior leaders in T3 should be removed. They are not needed. Nids T1 units already got boost from synaptic units and they can hold their ground pretty easly in T3.

- Tyrant guard should do less dmg on veh armor , unit that cos 400 / 55 can easly fight with dred for 450 / 120, and almost win.

- Malantai , 500/90 to counter all infantry army ? it should cost 600/120 , and ability that allows him to drain life from units , should be nerfed , dunno , doing this slower , or maybe make it as directional drain life as the Chaos Lord armor works , you can target unit / squad , but not AOE.


So if we want to change nids we should start looking at their economic aspects , and meaning of look , not just watch stats after the game and see 100 units lost , cause even if those 100 units 10-maybe 15 are warriors and some synpatics units , rest is termas / hormas for 8-10 req per model. As orcs , eldars , chaos , can suffer pretty much same amount of units lost and for much more cost.

[appiah4]

I'm not a regular Tyranid player but the T3 warrior leaders do sound pretty unnecessary, they add crazy knockback to hormogaunts and tend to cause unreasonable disruption in T3. Adrenal Glands, experience and Melee Synapse made Hormogaunts good enough IMO.

EDIT: Malantai price seems fine to me.. Yes it's insanely good against infantry armies but it can do nothing vs Armor or Melee, a single predator can knock it out pretty fast with its autocannon.

EDIT 2: Reg. Tyrant Guard, remember that it does not have Vehicle Armor and can not be repaired. The price seems fine, considering you can damage it with everything.

[Kvek]

I'm not a regular Tyranid player but the T3 warrior leaders do sound pretty unnecessary, they add crazy knockback to hormogaunts and tend to cause unreasonable disruption in T3. Adrenal Glands, experience and Melee Synapse made Hormogaunts good enough IMO.

EDIT: Malantai price seems fine to me.. Yes it's insanely good against infantry armies but it can do nothing vs Armor or Melee, a single predator can knock it out pretty fast with its autocannon.

EDIT 2: Reg. Tyrant Guard, remember that it does not have Vehicle Armor and can not be repaired. The price seems fine, considering you can damage it with everything.

Yes it can, but if you also have a zoan there with a venom brood the pred isn't going to do much, and the rest of the army will just cry about Doom being imba.

[Nurland]

Regarding appiah4's post:
Doom of Malan'tai just rapes all infantry (including melee). He has AoE damage ability, AoE disruption ability and if the melee gets close he can just use the self heal ability. The only things that reliably hurt the DoM are ranged, high dps vehicles. Which will probably get owned by the rest of the nid army since there probably is a venom brood, maybe a zoan and warrior leaders for termas.

And TG has such a large health pool that regular AV weapons don't do quite enough damage to it so you basically need a vehicle snare and/or some SHI counters to force it into shield wall and then you need a hard vehicle counter and some soft AV to take care it out. So a well managed TG is very, very hard to take out considering its price.