Dawn of War Codex

I almost soloed Orkfella's land raider with a vengeance round HB team at close range :3

I got creamed that game though, still was worth it to see his reaction afterwards.

You know it's kinda surprising when the noobs have more points than the other guys, but suppression did way more than the vr did. As well, what is the point of increased range? With the standard setup team dispersion, the rounds barely do anything at max range, even less than at the extended range vr give. It would be far more useful to get increased accuracy or something, which translates directly to increased damage anyway

I'm hardly a noob, I have 800+ hours of gaming under my belt since DOW2's initial release. Just because I'm no Tex doesn't mean I don't know anything. You don't have to be a world class director to know which actor has talent. You just need to know about cinema.

Some people have also noted that Vengeance rounds do stupidly low damage at range, thanks to dispersion (which makes the extra range even more useless). This allows even Tzeentch Marines to force them off (they have better HP, great damage to HI and once your HB model is dead, good luck resetting it - watch your devastators melt.)

I vaguely remember that Vengeance Rounds in retail did not suppress but the damage was the same regardless of range (at some point in time). Ditch the extra range, add uniform damage over total range. That would be a minor but nice fix at least, IMO.

Yeah, that is what I am talking about. Great that you get it.

appiah4 wrote:I vaguely remember that Vengeance Rounds in retail did not suppress but the damage was the same regardless of range (at some point in time). Ditch the extra range, add uniform damage over total range. That would be a minor but nice fix at least, IMO.

Do you realize this would more than triple their long-range damage and what would be the anti-infantry effect after that? We are talking ~380 dps at range 49 in tier 1... Np just a small tweak! A change like that requires a complete redesign of the weapon.

Lulgrim wrote:

appiah4 wrote:I vaguely remember that Vengeance Rounds in retail did not suppress but the damage was the same regardless of range (at some point in time). Ditch the extra range, add uniform damage over total range. That would be a minor but nice fix at least, IMO.

Do you realize this would more than triple their long-range damage and what would be the anti-infantry effect after that? We are talking ~380 dps at range 49 in tier 1... Np just a small tweak! A change like that requires a complete redesign of the weapon.

Yeah I realize that; but all the Elite changes are weird anyway. How about just taking it back to retail (50% dps increase, no range increase, 30 sec upgrade, 45sec cooldown, 50/10 cost) and making its damage uniform across range would probably be a lot more reasonable. As I said, I vaguely remember that it was like this at some point anyway (can anyone confirm, or am I imagining?)

More accuracy does not mean uniform damage, which would be ridiculous

ThongSong wrote:I almost soloed Orkfella's land raider with a vengeance round HB team at close range :3

I got creamed that game though, still was worth it to see his reaction afterwards.

Still convinced that had something to do with the LR's size type, that thing MELTS

Size of a unit does matter. An vengeance rounds are perfect as they are. Those who are complaining on how "useless" vengeance rounds are just have no idea how to use them.

The only thing I would change is make Vengeance round toggled. However it wouldn't be a sustained where energy is drained, it would still have a duration. However, if you halt the ability in the middle of it's duration it goes straight to CD. I hope this makes sense.

"Those who are complaining on how "useless" vengeance rounds are just have no idea how to use them."

Not to seem combative, but I don't think statements like these are helpful to discussions of unit balance.

Besides, there are some very competent players on here expressing concern.

this is why i no longer visit the comment section on youtube. Nothing but balance shit. Oh this is imba, did any of you actually look at toil's build? he built like 6 or 7 devs, and stayed in t1. OF COURSE A VEHICLE COUNTERED HIM. IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. Do people expect everything to counter everything in this game?!?

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with the theatrics. It's not conducive to a productive discussion.

I believe my last post cleared up my opinion on this pretty succinctly.

It's not just that it was a vehicle, it was a single, tier 2, 600 HP vehicle facing an army, controlled by one of the best players in the game, with 5 separate vengeance round capable squads. The result was the loss of a game that, up until that point, appeared almost completely one sided (361 VP difference). And the bloodcrusher survived.

Toil purchased that upgrade 5 times in order to have some anti-vehicle capability and they failed spectacularly. Moreover, they played almost no role in getting him the dramatic VP lead in the first place (see my previous post).

People arguing VR is UP: "Here are examples of it underperforming, here is an explanation of why it's bad, and here are ideas on how we could fix it."
People arguing VR are fine: "You suck. Noob. LOL. It's fine."

Bravo.

Magus, I am one of the worst players in this game and I managed to brought down a bloodcrusher with only one team of devastators equipped with vengeance rounds

Vengeance rounds do work at close range.

Toilalee (sorry if I has written it wrong) just failed that game. Nothing more should be said.

getting a squad of missile tacs is a great way to use them as bait for a bc.

bc rushes the tacs to tie them up. let tacs sit close to a vengeance round HB squad...

SUPRISE MO'FO! VENGEANCE ROUNDS OF THE EMPRAH TO THE FACE!

dead bc :3

Yes, I wanted to mention that in my previous post. Tacs get covered by devs from any offensive vehicle.

Yet I have not seen a single replay of Vengeance Rounds taking out a single vehicle, only this "VENGEANCE ROUNDS IN YO FACE MOFO!" power myth. Despite posting a video of one of the most talented players failing to kill 1 light vehicle with 5 of them too.

All I got was "Toilalee's bad." "Toilalee fail." "You suck, shut up noob." "Tex was supported by JP/TP squads." (This was the funniest. As if the Devastators themselves didn't get shotgun knocback and devastator suppression support from other squads in every engagement..) "He could have killed it with only 1 by FIRING AT IT FROM CLOSE RANGE! IN YO FACE MOFO!!1!one!" (As if that's something he actually has control over.)

A clever player will rush your devastators and fuck them up with a melee vehicle everytime. And he did. At one point he let the BC charge headlong into TWO VR devastators (almost as if trying to prove it could be killed), took close range damage from BOTH of them, but still managed to route them off. Pretty much every ranged vehicle can outdps your precious VR Devastators at long range, every time. And they will.

So please, spare me.

VR are probably only good for Gen Bashing I suppose, because those are the only things you can actually engage choosing and maintaining your engagement range with a setup team. How about that? IN YO FACE MOFO GENERATORS!!!!

From my experience VR do no job vs generators. And why don't you want to trust the worst player of all the times? And exactly me who managed, manages and will be managing to hurt/take out vehicles like bloodcrusher. You can send me a PM and we will go to check how effective VR are in a simulated situation. Will you?

appiah4 wrote:Yet I have not seen a single replay of Vengeance Rounds taking out a single vehicle, only this "VENGEANCE ROUNDS IN YO FACE MOFO!" power myth. Despite posting a video of one of the most talented players failing to kill 1 light vehicle with 5 of them too.

I don't have a replay but can confirm VR being really powerful short range. Though it makes sense considering it's just a damage boost to the normal HBolter rounds.
I was in retail and had a VR dev covering a normal dev. Stormboyz jumped the normal dev, I ran it back towards the VR dev and the Stormz got pretty much shredded within all of 1 or 2 seconds with 2 models remaining upon retreat. I believe VR have a lower damage multiplier in retail than elite too.

They are fairly low-threat to ranged vehicles though, unless you have VoT on them and the good fortune of running up to them while they're relatively undefended.

Despite the fact that their description kind of advertises them towards an anti-armour role, I always find myself getting them primarily for splattering infantry. Mark Target combined with close range VR is just absolutely stupid dps.

I still am totally baffled by the fact that some people find it surprising that a melee walker supported by 2 jump squads and 2 MoT Csm owned Toil's T1 dev spam. Basically everything in Tex's composition rapes HI/set ups. 2 Csm with MoT will eat a Devs in seconds if they are tied/forced to move. That is a T2 army vs T1 army... It is not supposed to be advantageous for the T1 army...

I mean Tex invested more in his army (and primarily anti HI investments) than Toil in addition to going T2 it should have a payoff

"Tex was supported by JP/TP squads." (This was the funniest. As if the Devastators themselves didn't get shotgun knocback and devastator suppression support from other squads in every engagement..)

Shotty blast is nice won't prevent the Devs taking from damage and forcing them to reposition. Raptors and Letters have 3s kb immunity after the jump and BL are immune to suppression anyway. So if he actually intends to force the jump troops off he needs to use the remaining Devs that have not been jumped to shoot down the jump troops and get rofl stomped by the Crusher and 2xTcsm + hero while forcing off the jump infantry. VR are a threat to a vehicle it just buys some time. Had there not been VR Toil would've been base locked 1 minute after the BC came out.

Boy did that get out of hand...

In that particular game my biggest mistake was not buying artificer's armor around 5-6minute mark, before tex hit t2. If I had spammed mines in front of my devs like you are "supposed" to do for this build to work BC wouldn't have had nearly as much of an impact and I might've won the game. If BC had charged to 4 devs like it did, but had been snared by a mine on the way, it would've died right there. And even if Tex had picked up on that and gotten wary of my mines he would've been more careful with it.

Anyway it was just one friendly game with a bo I have very little experience using. Do not base entire balance discussions and arguments on one game, especially if it is not even a tournament game.

"I still am totally baffled by the fact that some people find it surprising that a melee walker supported by 2 jump squads and 2 MoT Csm owned Toil's T1 dev spam."

As detailed below, the rest of Tex's army had a minimal role in winning him two of the three substantial engagements in which the bloodcrusher participated. The bloodcrusher, far more than any of those other 4 units, upended that game.

In the fight starting at 14:30 Toil's jump troops played a minimal role in interrupting the Devs. The first squad that the Raptors jumped wasn't firing at the Bloodcrusher, and the Bloodcrusher had already left the firing arc of the one that was before the raptors moved on to that one. The bloodletters were nowhere to be seen for most of that engagement.

In the second fight, starting at 17:00, 4 of the 5 Devs are set up and fully prepared for the fighting to begin, with the fifth diverted to combat a flank. The bloodcrusher moves quickly into the lines, breaking Toil's defense in approximately five seconds (17:05). The Raptors were responsible for jumping a single squad, which was firing normal rounds at the PC.

I'll admit, at 18:00, we get to see some of the VR power begin to make itself known. At that point the Bloodcrusher is operating well within the Dev's firing arc. There are two Dev's present, one of which gets tied up by bloodletters. The Bloodcrusher, with it's 600 hp, engages a scout squad briefly before charging into melee with the Devs and retreating successfully.


"Had there not been VR Toil would've been base locked 1 minute after the BC came out."

Toil may not have been "base locked" at 15:30, but he lost that game the second that bloodcrusher took the field.

The Vengeance rounds did absolutely nothing tactically appreciable in that game. In every fight before the bloodcrusher they were completely negligible (see my previous post on page 12). In two of the three fights after it hit the field, they failed to force it off. At the risk of repeating myself, Toil purchased the vengeance round upgrade 5 times, and had a massive lead throughout most of the game. The bloodcrusher was also level 1 the entire time (it leveled to 2 at 18:12, while falling back).

I'm going to go ahead and admit something: I don't feel very strongly about Dev. vengeance rounds. Maybe they are balanced, maybe they aren't. I'm betting that Toil, and Riku, and Max power, and you Nurland, and all the rest have a much better idea than I do. I'm not super invested in them. I also suspect that Caeltos doesn't give a wink about what I think anyway. But that game does not, in my humble opinion, swing in favor of the vengeance round upgrade.

Toilailee wrote:Boy did that get out of hand...

In that particular game my biggest mistake was not buying artificer's armor around 5-6minute mark, before tex hit t2. If I had spammed mines in front of my devs like you are "supposed" to do for this build to work BC wouldn't have had nearly as much of an impact and I might've won the game. If BC had charged to 4 devs like it did, but had been snared by a mine on the way, it would've died right there. And even if Tex had picked up on that and gotten wary of my mines he would've been more careful with it.

Anyway it was just one friendly game with a bo I have very little experience using. Do not base entire balance discussions and arguments on one game, especially if it is not even a tournament game.

Holy cow...it's the man himself.

You poor fellow. You post one replay and people like me won't shut up about it.

Nurland wrote:Had there not been VR Toil would've been base locked 1 minute after the BC came out.

No, he would have gone T2 with the 375 req he wasted, bought 2 Lascannons and won the game.

He did not bring Tex down to 7 VPs with VRs, he got him down there with suppression. At no point in that match did he need or make meaningful use of VRs. The VRs lost him the game, not save him from getting baselocked.

Magus Magi wrote:You poor fellow. You post one replay and people like me won't shut up about it.

Actually it was Indrid who posted it and Tex who sent it to him, but ye..



..btw on the actual topic VR troll sentinels since they get both the boost vs HI and the 900% boost vs vehicles.

SM troll IG. Flamers, vengeance rounds, snipers, AC dreads, the libby and flamer termies. Fun.

I'm not convinced by any of these arguments to make vengeance rounds better at all. Nor devastators actually, I think they perform just fine.

Also, is it just me who finds this post painfully condescending?

Magus Magi wrote:
Holy cow...it's the man himself.

You poor fellow. You post one replay and people like me won't shut up about it.

Don't get it started, please. SM troll IG, SM troll IG.... This thread ain't about SM vs IG. You just provoke people.

The objective of about 25% of the posts on this forum seem to be to provoke people, either that or they're blissfully ignorant of the most basic functions of this game.

Stick to the topic.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:SM troll IG. Flamers, vengeance rounds, snipers, AC dreads, the libby and flamer termies. Fun.

I'm not convinced by any of these arguments to make vengeance rounds better at all. Nor devastators actually, I think they perform just fine.

Also, is it just me who finds this post painfully condescending?

Magus Magi wrote:
Holy cow...it's the man himself.

You poor fellow. You post one replay and people like me won't shut up about it.

That post was in NO way meant to be condescending. In fact, I intended it to be just the opposite. I'm aware of the fact that Toil has, in several previous posts, expressed consternation at the degree to which discussions of unit balance blow up.

Even though I continue to post my honest opinions on the subject of unit balance, I know how to poke a little fun at myself. I'm aware that I sound like a bit of a blowhard every time I post, especially to someone with a much better grasp of the game (Toil). So it's really true. One of his replays goes up, and Toilailee has to deal with people like me picking it apart, and arguing about unit balance, even though it was just a friendly match between him and Tex in an isolated context.

If you look at his response, I believe (I certainly hope) he took it exactly that way.

I am however, really irritated that you decided to take it as condescending. I make a real effort to couch my discussions of unit balance on here with frequent reminders that I'm not speaking from a place of extreme experience.