Dark Eldar as a new race? Suggestion thread

[Mngwa]

Dark Archon is finished now. Shuma is da bozz.

..dat hair...

DAWN OF WAR NEEDS MORE HAIR.

No, not hair gel (not looking at anyone in particular except that I am) but more hair. Banshees had quite a lot but not nearly enough! Farseer had a little, but only little, and the WSE was almost bald!
Hairy commanders are what we need!

[Swift]

Can't wait to play him... HINT HINT Caeltos

[Daddy]

I played Dark Eldar in soul-storm. This would be an EPIC Addition to DOW that will overshadow the retail version!

Here is my Input in such matters directly taken from The original Dawn of War Unit List.

I would like to see the Archon will have a retinue Incubi, similar to the Lord General. Like in the first Dawn of War

Mandrakes -Combat specialists -Close combat units that can be upgraded to use infiltration (stealth).

(These can be remodeled heretics, or melee Dire Avengers with heretic re-skins.)

Warriors-Basic infantry -Common Dark Eldar unit good at ranged attacks.
(Dire Avengers re-skin obviously)


Wyches-Combat specialists -Armed with deadly weapons and combat drugs, they hit morale of the enemy unit hard and fast.
(Instead of attacking morale, they inflict courage damage, also someone mentioned using banshee models.)

Haemonculus Secondary commander Can attach to squads to improve damage to morale by weapons.
(Well DOW has no attached to squads function, but would still make a sweet commander to boost damage)


Warp Beast Pack Fast attack combat unit Without a beastmaster the squad will attack friendlies when panicked
(This can be an ability similar to the Blood Rage by the Chaos Khorne Dreadnaught, but will happen when beasts are suppressed, reskined and re-sized bloodcrusher without the rider deamon could work here)

Hellion Hover-infantry Mounted on skyboards these units look similar to the Green Goblin.
(This will be the challenging feat to accomplish Imo)

Scourge Jet-pack infantry Armed with Splinter Cannons by default they can be upgraded to have Dark Lances to be effective against vehicles. Unlike in the tabletop game this unit must stop in order to fire the Splinter Cannons. They can fly short distances.
(I don't know how these guys would work, but it would be freakin aweseome!)

[Mngwa]

Hellions and/or the beastpack would be interesting. Neither of them have anything like them already in the game, but they could both work. Work better than jetbikes, at least.

[Swift]

I really disagree with stuff about Scourges. Perhaps we should brainstorm units less and focus army wide first.

[Tsototar]

Dark Archon is finished now. Shuma is da bozz.

Breathtakingly beautiful.

In terms of units I think the Talos pain engine would fit well as the walker in their ranks. Heavy suppressive effects whenever it kills an infantry model (regenerating its own health? Haha)

The "damage over time" theme sounds good too; I do think of the Dark Eldar as a very courage-damage heavy faction, though. Pain and fear are pretty suppressive aren't they?

What would a faction where very many units have suppressive abilities (maybe available only as upgrades) be like to play/fight? I think it could be interesting, as opposed to "Eldar with some tweaked stats and no psychic abilities"

[Swift]

Whilst I don't want to suggest things this early, I like your idea of that. We know they have poisoned weapons, but they could be a hallucinogenic poison, fear inducing etc. I like the sound of lots of suppression, but might lots of suppression be a bit too good?

[Mngwa]

Dark Archon is finished now. Shuma is da bozz.

Breathtakingly beautiful.

In terms of units I think the Talos pain engine would fit well as the walker in their ranks. Heavy suppressive effects whenever it kills an infantry model (regenerating its own health? Haha)

The "damage over time" theme sounds good too; I do think of the Dark Eldar as a very courage-damage heavy faction, though. Pain and fear are pretty suppressive aren't they?

What would a faction where very many units have suppressive abilities (maybe available only as upgrades) be like to play/fight? I think it could be interesting, as opposed to "Eldar with some tweaked stats and no psychic abilities"

Indeed, I could think of abilities that suppress for most units. Although not all of them should be able to do that, it would be great to have some kind of options if you need something to do that.
The Phantasm-Grenade Launchers for Warriors/Trueborn, Baleblast-ranged attacks for mandrakes (in the 5th edition codex, they actually were pinning, but now that they were made viable in 7th edition the option was removed. Slightly sad but not dealbreaking for them), wyches I can't think of any (they don't have anything super-nerve-wracking like the banshee-masks) but I don't think they would need any if they have some self-buffing abilities (combat drugs could actually be something to break suppression instead of causing it to others, although it should definitely be an upgrade instead of something they get without a price).
Wracks, the hexrifle or even the liquifier gun, since an acid-flamer can't feel that good for your back. Self-healing and buffing is more of a Chronos-Engine thing, so I wouldn't think the Talos should have something to suppress (except possibly the Liquifier gun). Having both of the engines as walker-units could be interesting though, since they wouldn't need too different modeling work, and two walker-vehicles in DoW2 isn't unheard of (Bloodcrusher and Chaos Dreadnought came to mind).
Haemonculi (who could work as subcommanders) have everything they need to have any amount of weird abilities, suppressing could be done by one of them (I don't remember their usual wargear and artefacts they use too well, but there were some variety in them).

Damage over Time should definitely be something mandatory to have on at least something, but I was wondering how well it would work and how balanced it could be if it was on the most basic ranged weaponry (the splinter weapons). If the damage between actually shooting and the damage caused after would be balanced well I don't see any problem with normal ranged-fights, but it could certainly give them an edge against retreating units (who normally don't care about ranged fire in DoW2). With that, as well as dark eldar being the fastest faction in 40k, the damage over time should probably be only a slight portion of the firepower kabalites could do. But it could be useful for them if an enemy tries to break from the fight and fall back (without retreating), so that they may lose someone to the poison while regrouping even if there was no pursuit.

[Tsototar]

so I was just on a fairly long flight, and started thinking about Dark Eldar and new factions in principle (this is gonna be a long post, be warned).

I think it's worthwhile to look back at DoW1, specifically when they finally introduced Tau and Necrons. So you've got two whole factions with lots of different units etc., that appeal to players who like the idea of playing as said factions, and also adds fun for people who don't want to play as them, by having a different set of "problems to solve" i.e. "how to fight these new guys?".

But the Necrons added something even more - a rather different "economic system" from all the other factions, not needing req points in quite the same way everyone else did, and therefore with a different set of limitations and advantages, and necessitating quite some differences in how to fight against them strategically (as opposed to tactically). And the way that "economics change" worked seems fluff appropriate, which is good.

So to that end, the Necrons add "more" to the game complexity/"interestingness" than the Tau. And this sort of thing would also affect/apply to DoW2. There's the other thread about adding Tau, and the question/topic regularly pops up re: Tau in the elite mod, doesn't it. But what exactly would the Tau, as a new faction, do for the game?

It would be a real "pull" factor for people who think "wow I can be Tau? Awesome!". It adds one more set of different engagement methods etc., for people who will have to fight them. But there doesn't seem to be much scope for any great "economics" change.

(And a problematic issue would be that you'd be introducing a faction for which the general conception ("long range shooty army") already has not one but two representatives in game (IG and Eldar; Manticore, Prism, Dcannons). If the Tau are going to be shootier than that, with most existing maps there's going to be problems with most of the Tau roster being able to shoot into enemy bases from their own)

So in terms of "something different", I'd imagine implementing the Necrons would be more interesting than the Tau. Simply reimplementing the Necron system from DoW1 into DoW2 seems a bit ... lacking though?

I think there's an opportunity here, if introducing the Dark Eldar as a faction, for something really quite different/new. It's going to take a lot of thinking/calculating, working out edge cases etc., but if it works it'd be something that could really grab people -

(fluff-wise) The Dark Eldar don't just go out and capture/hunt people just for the fun of it (though yes, Dark Eldar Are Bad And Enjoy Hurting Others Just Because).

They do it because if they don't have souls to siphon off to Slaanesh (indirectly), they themselves are dead meat:

A Dark Eldar who does not capture and kill is doomed.

They need the victims souls in order to stay alive, or else they could just hide in the Webway flogging/spanking each other for pleasure and never leave their basements.

We have a resource for "souls" in the game already - red.

The Dark Eldar could be a faction that needs red in a (somewhat, does not have to be 100%) different way from every other faction in the game.

One possible way:

For the Dark Eldar, red would be a resource that diminishes over time. Red would be, for the DE, a "cost of living".

It ticks down continuously (rate of reduction To Be Determined).

A DE player that lets red drop to zero... is going to regret it.

How?

He can be hurt, e.g. every single model on the field takes hp loss every second red is zero, for example.

This would be a semi-self-correcting thing (since if it keeps going on, he'll start losing models and once any/enough models actually die, hey look there's red, and can therefore stave off the health loss. But only for a while - the new red is going to slowly disappear and get "used up" too...).

The DE faction needs red to function, and if the DE player cannot obtain the red from killing enemies... well, the deaths are going to have to come from somewhere.

Yes this means a DE player should start with some amount of red (this will require careful calibration). (Tier requirements should take care of any worries of globals being used right off?).

I have no idea now if the amount of "red cost per minute" should scale according to the size of his army, but my gut feeling says no -

BUT gut feeling also says any lack-of-red penalty SHOULD scale with the size of the army (hence why I said hp damage per model, above) - a DE player with a large army ought to be better able to inflict losses on the enemy, AND also be more desperate to do so (since his penalty scales up greater along with the size of his army). The higher you climb, the harder the fall...

It could open up different calculations when fighting against a DE army - would it be possible to "starve" a DE enemy by simply refusing to fight him, for example?

or deliberately limiting engagements in particular ways (for high-health squads, being always sure to pull back before you lose models could be more hurtful to him than outright fighting and winning, maybe (the need to take/hold VPs is going to be a complicating factor, but maybe it could be a calculated player move to allow the DE to take an early VP lead in exchange for really hurting him later? After all, camping at the VP right from the start of the game is one way to lose the game). Maybe the red a DE player gets from loss of his own models is a LOT less than what he gets from killing enemies, so it wouldn't affect the calculations of someone having to fight the DE (plus, it would make the red countdown even more frightening to the DE player, as he would lose proportionately a LOT more units if he didn't have enough souls he could harvest from opponents).


All of the globals would continue to have a red cost but it'd force the DE player to have to really think about it. Calling in a nuke and using 500 red is going to be a major disaster if the nuke fails to achieve sufficient/any kills, for example. If there's a per-model hp cost, and your army is already at low health, for example, then a failed nuke could be followed by your entire army just falling over and dying next.

Every move of a DE player will, at the back of the mind, have to involve the continual fear that you're going to run out of souls... and then... (and fluff-wise, this is basically at the back of the mind of every DE, isn't it?).

The globals, I'm thinking of something like one to increase health of a squad (this makes sense, DE use victims' souls to maintain themselves), another to increase damage, one to hurt a targeted enemy squad, speed, that kind of thing. Will have to worry about "snowballing" where use of globals (or any other ability) leading to a lot of red and thereby "solving" the DE need-for-red problem.

(all of this working would be heavily dependent on the background math (rate of use of red, etc.) - yes, it's going to be tricky to work out, but I'm not sure it's impossible).

As was pointed out above, the DE army could be too strong if every squad has all sorts of suppression abilities etc. - that could be the tradeoff for having this sword-of-damocles hanging over the player's head all the time. You could have unit-to-unit the best squads of the whole game, for example, but you're going to have to worry about something no one else need worry about...

I think it could be an opportunity for something really "new", in terms of gameplay, as opposed to "here's a new faction with a set of slightly-different units with slightly-different stats and slightly-different powers". I mean, that's not to say that that in and of itself isn't worthwhile, but (if it's possible to make it work) wouldn't something radically (?) different be more fun?

[Tsototar]

How about this - one point of red deducted per second. If red drops to zero each model takes 10hp damage per second. Player starts off with 120 red (so two minutes "free").

(Err, is this kind of mechanism even implementable?)

[Mngwa]

Could be something. I am pretty sure that something like that is possible, because the orks have a slow gain of the red resource automatically, so I can't imagine it would be too difficult to reverse. I could be wrong there though.
No idea can you start a game with red, that could be something a little tougher.

I think there were some ideas about having the Power from Pain-system used with the red-resource in some of the previous pages.

As far as lore goes, though, I wouldn't think that withering away happens so quickly! Something better for the game instead of HP-loss could be simply slower HP-regen if the red-resource is depleted. If that were the case, there probably wouldn't be need to even try tailoring the red-bar so that Dark Eldar would always start with a certain amount of it.

[Darkhavien]

What about having the Red resource unlock army-wide passives? Like the power-from-pain mechanic sort of is in table-top already.

Have it tick down so they have to keep killing if they want to keep it charged.

[Orkfaeller]

I dont know what other DE units Shuma is planing to make, if any, but

I used to work on spme Dark Eldar wyches textures, based on Banshees. They are not very great, but mixed with some assets from the Warriors they could maybe atleast be used as a placeholder, 'till Shuma ( or someone else ) releases proper models.

[Swift]

Don't beat yourself up I think they look fairly good.

[Tsototar]

The reason I was thinking of a kind of global countdown leading to a "total" disaster, is because I wanted/thought it would be good for there to be a kind of "existential threat" - like, it's a really high stakes thing as opposed to just "win/lose" (you could imagine the Orks just rallying for another battle after a defeat, for example, Chaos just flaying the leaders and trying again, and I guess the IG would shoot a lot of people for "cowardice" to motivate them, but losing a battle isn't quite "world-ending"?).

So, both

I think there were some ideas about having the Power from Pain-system used with the red-resource in some of the previous pages.

What about having the Red resource unlock army-wide passives? Like the power-from-pain mechanic sort of is in table-top already.
Have it tick down so they have to keep killing if they want to keep it charged.

sound definitely workable just... not "apocalyptic" enough for me . "Good to have" benefits that will help them win/lose, but not quite a "we must do this OR WE WILL DIE" kind of thing, that would totally dictate gameplay. "We must kill NOW or we are all doomed!" would be the driving force, kind of thing

As far as lore goes, though, I wouldn't think that withering away happens so quickly!

I'd actually thought of this, and was thinking this could be an "exceptional case" scenario - say, the DE who are involved in this attack on the Aurellian sector are a kabal that had fled the web way after a foiled assassination attempt against Asrubel Vect, say, so they couldn't take all their soul victims with them and now desperately need souls, and are already feeling the effects... this would also help explain the lack of certain units in their roster (no X or Y units simply because they were unable to flee with them). The VP points could be some kind of antenna they need to gain control over in order to flee to reenter the web way in a different area than Comorragh.

Or maybe this is just a bold move on the part of one of the Archons, to demonstrate his superiority over the others, like someone entering a boxing ring with an arm tied behind his back to show he can win even though deliberately handicapped ("I shall go forth and take on new victims WITHOUT bothering to bring any with me for necessary sustenance, just to demonstrate my contempt for all you losers hiding back in the city; I shall take whatever I need from the field, and woe to any who dare challenge me in the future if I'm this good at fighting!")

Something better for the game instead of HP-loss could be simply slower HP-regen if the red-resource is depleted. If that were the case, there probably wouldn't be need to even try tailoring the red-bar so that Dark Eldar would always start with a certain amount of it.

I even considered maybe the DE starting with no red and hp loss enabled, so that right off the player is experiencing the effects of lack of red and losing hp and slowly dying (that should really hammer home the point of You Really Need Red, Dude). But then, unit balance is already hard enough...

(maybe starting units are immune to the red loss. Or it could be a popcap/upkeep kind of thing, no red loss if you have less than "x" pop).

I just think it would be really quite cool if a DE player is forced to do things simply because he must to survive (no tactical "waiting" games)...

[Tsototar]

I used to work on spme Dark Eldar wyches textures, based on Banshees.

that makes a lot of sense, I mean, female Eldar are... female Eldar, after all, so "genetically" they draw from the same source.

and they look fine!! if I saw a woman charging at me with a knife and abs like those, I'd run too

[Mngwa]

To be fair, wyches are also male. Howling Banshees can be male too but they are more universally female and it wouldn't be as easy to tell with the aspect armour anyway (ehm... What? Men can have boobplates too!)
So having male wych-models would be interesting too. I don't know how difficult it is and what kind of problems it can have to have multiple kinds of models in one squad (that would otherwise have the same stats), but that would be an interesting option. Another choice is that if there is an upgrade to special wych-weapons (like hydra gauntlets, although the razorflails are my favourite), the model wearing that weapon could be modified to look male for the variety.


Bob the Wych wants to be in Dawn of War as well!

(Upon looking at the picture, I just noticed that he conveniently is holding a special weapon, the shardnet and the impaler. Never realized that before even though I have seen this pic)

EDIT: Almost forgot, but those models look great!

[Tsototar]

To be fair, wyches are also male. Howling Banshees can be male too but they are more universally female and it wouldn't be as easy to tell with the aspect armour anyway (ehm... What? Men can have boobplates too!)

haha did you see my signature?

anyways the Eldar aren't sexist, that's why you have male and female Farseers, and there are female Guardians too.

Though there are certain aspects that appeal more to particular genders I suppose... and you can't really "equalise" biology. I remember the first time I read Starship Troopers, it really struck me as making a lot of sense that basically all their pilots are female thanks to the reaction time benefits etc. So, shee agility requirements = mostly female.

And I read an article post-Interstellar which discussed how for long-duration manned space exploration should actually be "womanned" because they're physically smaller and so need smaller spaces + can be equipped with less food (the less mass to lift off world the better...).

Another choice is that if there is an upgrade to special wych-weapons (like hydra gauntlets, although the razorflails are my favourite), the model wearing that weapon could be modified to look male for the variety.!

Ok that would be sexist . How about the default units are male and the upgraded units are the female ones?

[Mngwa]

Another choice is that if there is an upgrade to special wych-weapons (like hydra gauntlets, although the razorflails are my favourite), the model wearing that weapon could be modified to look male for the variety.!

Ok that would be sexist . How about the default units are male and the upgraded units are the female ones?

The Hekatrix could be female!
And anyway, I was thinking about it mostly because they would be of a smaller amount than the other models. Then again, DoW2 has a nice way of transferring weapons from dead guys to the live ones. But I am sure Dark Eldar have the technology to do gender-switching surgeries in the middle of combat!

[Tsototar]

The reason I was thinking of a kind of global countdown leading to a "total" disaster, is because I wanted/thought it would be good for there to be a kind of "existential threat" -

I just think it would be really quite cool if a DE player is forced to do things simply because he must to survive (no tactical "waiting" games)...

Imagine a late game where the Eldar faction has a VP lead, say. If it was Craftworld Eldar, they could camp on the VP, guarding it with D-cannons, Fire Prisms, all sorts of standoff weaponry, lying in wait for opponents who need to come crashing in because he needs the VPs. But not for DE without enough red - they'd be *forced* to move off the position looking for a fight, because otherwise they'd slowly weaken and become easier for an attacker to win...

[Daddy]

I feel the Red effects mentioned above, would take away from the actual game-play and tactics. It's not fun for a player to "have" to attack just to avoid penalties.

Especially against races like IG or SM with APO support that can just bunker down and play defensive. It is hard enough to break a Good IG defense.

Think of new or Noob players, that would love to play Dark Eldar, this new concept would probably just frustrate them.

[Tsototar]

I feel the Red effects mentioned above, would take away from the actual game-play and tactics. It's not fun for a player to "have" to attack just to avoid penalties.

Especially against races like IG or SM with APO support that can just bunker down and play defensive. It is hard enough to break a Good IG defense.

Think of new or Noob players, that would love to play Dark Eldar, this new concept would probably just frustrate them.

you're not wrong this thing could "overshadow" the "basic" gameplay. I think I mentioned as I proposed it that I was trying to think of something that would make the faction "really different".

I guess I might be getting a bit bored (?) in that I don't want "just another set of units with different stats"? There's already 7 operating under essentially the same rules, and one more in and of itself seems unnecessary, other than people who just absolutely have to play as DE (I'd understand, I mean, I have no interest in non-Eldar play).

Other than looks and unit stats, what differentiates the DE from anybody else? Is that enough? I am leaning towards "no" as the answer to that, hence trying to think of various other tweaks.

I mean, if you want something fast-moving, hard-hitting and fragile, why not just play Craftworld Eldar? But with a wildly (?) different underlying mechanic, DE could really be an "expert mode" faction, say - you really need to know what you're doing with it, but if you do, then the various powers etc. they have would make for a really intense game?

[Daddy]

I agree with you in that Dark eldar would have to bring something unique to the gameplay.

The following was retrieved from the Dark Eldar Wiki :http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Eldar

"The Dark Eldar operating near the Nexus of Shadows are frequently on the move"

"The Dark Eldar employ a number of hand-held weapons designed to eviserate, lacerate and incise at close quarters."

"Dark Eldar raiding forces never attack the foe directly, but use their speed, mobility and the advantage of surprise to attack swiftly and then withdraw, with the intent of slowly bleeding the foe dry. As a result of this tactical doctrine, Dark Eldar forces never gather in a single place that would leave them open to an enemy counter-attack."

"During large battles, the Dark Eldar favour a style of combat that might be considered a "wave attack." The Dark Eldar in large war fleets assaulting well-defended targets organise themselves into successive waves made up of units with differing tactical capabilities and destroy the enemy in a series of separate but linked sequential assaults. "


Essentially sounds like DE would be a race that is great at weakening and destroying static defenses, reward mobility, strong close quarters, slowly bleed enemies.

[Daddy]

I think what DE can bring to the game is the use of combat drugs. On demand boosts, Like fleet of foot but better.

I see the Archon with a melee retinue but unlike the lord general, his purpose is to tie up. A kinda tanky hero with retinue that can be re-inforced in field.

The kabalite warrriors should have the range of shotgun scouts, high damage the closer they are to the target. They are not meant to fight other ranged squads without support. Yet excellent with at dealing with approaching melee squads. I see these dark warriors to be capable melee fighters, have high melee skill but low to mediocre melee damage. Not meant for dedicated melee fight, just strong enough to stall in a melee fight.

The purpose of this is so you can tie up with archon, then rush in kabalite warriors for a hard strike. Though in tier 2, they become well supported with a raider. A raider that has a charge ability to advance quickly and disrupt.

Mandrakes can get a passive ability "stalk" that lets them infiltrate but lose speed. This is to tie up ranged squads, as your warriors can't fight a ranged squad cause of low range. Mandrakes not meant to fight dedicated melee units but good at taking out ranged squads.

Those are a few ideas running in my head, trying to fit it to the lore yet bring in something unique.

[Mngwa]

I think what DE can bring to the game is the use of combat drugs. On demand boosts, Like fleet of foot but better.

I see the Archon with a melee retinue but unlike the lord general, his purpose is to tie up. A kinda tanky hero with retinue that can be re-inforced in field.

The kabalite warrriors should have the range of shotgun scouts, high damage the closer they are to the target. They are not meant to fight other ranged squads without support. Yet excellent with at dealing with approaching melee squads. I see these dark warriors to be capable melee fighters, have high melee skill but low to mediocre melee damage. Not meant for dedicated melee fight, just strong enough to stall in a melee fight.

The purpose of this is so you can tie up with archon, then rush in kabalite warriors for a hard strike. Though in tier 2, they become well supported with a raider. A raider that has a charge ability to advance quickly and disrupt.

Mandrakes can get a passive ability "stalk" that lets them infiltrate but lose speed. This is to tie up ranged squads, as your warriors can't fight a ranged squad cause of low range. Mandrakes not meant to fight dedicated melee units but good at taking out ranged squads.

Those are a few ideas running in my head, trying to fit it to the lore yet bring in something unique.

Kabalite Warriors use long-barreled rifles, I don't see why they should be close ranged. Even in TT they are same range as bolters. I do think that they should do pretty well in CC though. Better than most ranged squads (except catachans!). There's a lot of artwork with them fighting CC against orks or space wolves (I remember two pics with those first, I think there are more). Anyway, them and especially trueborn are still experts at long-range.

The Archon with a retinue would be interesting, but I would think that, unlike the Lord General, he could have it as just an upgrade so he could run around on his own (maybe he would be faster without a retinue?). Incubi are an obvious choice but I would wish them as an actual unit as well. The Court would be a good option for retinue-upgrades. Lhamaean in place of sergeant, a sslyth (or maybe two with one upgrade?) in place of commissars and ur-ghul instead of a vox-caster, or so.

[Mngwa]

I just had such a funny idea I wanted to say it. (I may have said this before in my walls of text earlier, dunno...)

DE vehicles can't get rear-armour hits. They are sleek craft made from cardboard that die to a stiff breeze, so it shouldn't matter if a lascannon hits it through the front, side or rear. And looking at the models, there indeed doesn't even seem to be any "weak spots" where it would be more devastating to the craft to be hit at than the whole craft itself.

So how about it, Land Raider? Will you give your special ability of no rear-armour-hits to your good cousin, Raider?

[Daddy]

Yeah raider will have to expose its rear often enough to perform hit n runs. And as you stated, it would already have low health. So rear armor hits should not affect it.

As for Kabalite warrrios, they could have long range fire, but increased damage as the target gets closer maybe .

This fits something a DE would do. instead of long ranged firefights, they really want to get up to your face and harrass you with their DE oddities.

Any good SADIST knows that more can be done when your victim is close. You cant victimize your opponents when they are far-away. Better yet I should say it is more satisfying to have your subjects nearby.

[Tsototar]

Any good SADIST knows that more can be done when your victim is close. You cant victimize your opponents when they are far-away. Better yet I should say it is more satisfying to have your subjects nearby.

Masochist says to the Sadist: "hurt me!"
Sadist replies to the Masochist: "no!"


no rear armour hits, low health... how low health are we talking about? considering vehicle mechanics in DoW2, would it make the vehicles effectively unusable?

[Mngwa]

no rear armour hits, low health... how low health are we talking about? considering vehicle mechanics in DoW2, would it make the vehicles effectively unusable?

I was thinking that a venom could have similar health to a sentinel (don't remember how much that would be exactly, though) as well as have either heavy-infantry or Super-heavy-infantry as the armour-type. For a raider, maybe going with the rhino-way and have it upgrade to vehicle armour. Having checked the HP-values for some vehicles, possibly less than 500 health. I am not one for balancing that out though.


Also, more on about kabalite warriors and long-range fighting with DE. They do sometimes (or often, or rarely, or always, no idea really) have scopes which they can use to "tape" their shots. They then can watch as their target writhes in agony as well as brag with it to others.

[Tsototar]

I'm concerned with vehicle HP numbers because the way the game mechanics work it's not really possible to have the vehicles be as "fast" as they ought to be? It's basically the reason why the game doesn't have jet bikes or land speeders, isn't it? those would need to be so fast/maneuverable in the game it's not workable/implementable in the current mechanics. If the entire DE roster has vehicles along those lines then there's a big problem re: vehicles. (had to sneak out of Comorragh without all those vehicles?).

Also, more on about kabalite warriors and long-range fighting with DE. They do sometimes (or often, or rarely, or always, no idea really) have scopes which they can use to "tape" their shots. They then can watch as their target writhes in agony as well as brag with it to others.

This makes me think of suppression even more. If your squad mate is writhing in agony from a wound by this kind of Xeno weapon, there's no way you're not going to keep your head down and hug the floor, faith in the Emperor or no