Dawn of War Codex

Ok... Inspiration on melee kill on a ranged walker does not outshadow splash + higher base dps. Since it doesn't have that higher base dps and splas you generally don't melee that much stuff with ranged dreads. And only SM melee Dreads and upgraded DDs have the flamer. It is not really like Eldar struggle against garrisons and.

It having a free garrison counter in addition to already extremely good upgrades and lower price than other heavy duty walkers sounds just absurd. It already outshadows Falcon quite heavily atm.

Faultron, Kvek and other people keep repeating those things because you keep repeating your own statements about the wraithlord being bad and/or worse than other walkers which isn't true at all.

Just because something on a unit would get a nerf doesn't mean it has to get a buff too.
That a bad train of thought. :/ Why do you think it got a nerf in the first place...?

The English is manageable It's just hard to read and understand your points due to your sentence structure and lay-out. You kinda seem all over the place when writing.
But hey, at least we non-native English speakers can communicate trough English :p

alright i find the root of the problem about WL finally.
i didnt understand why the cries, so i did tested something ingame.

did you know they increased the damage for WL bright as well?not just 100%fotm which is fine btw but damage increased as well?
like 80 retail to 120-125elite per shot???
WL fire slower a bit then brightlanceplatform variant(90 per shot) yes but deals more dmg(which is i think better) this doesnt make any sense.this is not balanced at all.
and nobody even speak about this or i cant find this in patch notes...
(when you just play you cant notice this if you not paying attention)

this is big, big problem

WL brightlance damage nerf pls.


Edit: sry my bad, the number is not correct it does 80 as allways,122 is rear armor hit

Warlock globals should be changed
he has +1 more global in T1 compare to other eldar commander, and he is the best commander amongs them as well (T1), maybe WSE in some situation.
Distort field or Swift movement should be T2 global.

I don't think that's justified

what?
this 2 global in T1 is very strong and too strong together, way stronger then any other eldar commander for what reason?
and ppl want to change/ hate banhees cos of this basicly...as you can see in other topic
cos they think sheez are op, but not.

or if this global ok to have, why other commander have to play weaker/weak T1?

what is the reason to have 3 commander but only 1 is viable/strong?
should i play only warlock every time cos he strong in T1-T2....and drop the others if i want win?why?

this game is about T1 and T2, T3 doesnt matter too much even if your commander is the best in T3.
Every commander and race in this game should be balanced around T1-T2 mostly, if you want balance...

just look Battleforge(rip)
it is very similar game with map/game dynamics , and in that game u rarely went T3, if so only 1-2 units(from like 20 overall and u put the rest in T1, T2).
some guys dont even played with T3 ever, they put more pressure instead in T1-T2, which works here in Dow 2 as well.

or change and make T2-T3 easier to reach, i mean every commander good in T1-T3

I think you underestimate the FS and the WSE. For instance they both have heavy melee options unlike the WL among other things. I'm not saying WL isn't strong. But I wouldn't say he's stronger than other heroes. The only thing that matters in the end is how you like to play your hero.

u dont have heavy melee in T1
and singing spear on farseer is not so good option, she not a melee fighter, u better go doombringer and support ur other av units.
the blades on wse is only viable cos of his teleport chase and finish potential

T1 warlock clearly the strongest and in T2 as well i think
so it makes no reason for haveing both globals in T1.
but this suggestion was not rly about the 3 commanders, but the WL global support for himself and his army...vs other race mainly
and u even suggest on the other topic banshee nerf, about her chase potential

Faultron wrote:u dont have heavy melee in T1, even if u could have doesnt rly matter:)
and singing spear on farseer is not so good option, she not a melee fighter, u better go doombringer and support ur other av units.
the blades on wse is only viable cos of his teleport chase and finish potential

T1 warlock clearly the strongest and in T2 as well i think
so it makes no reason for haveing both globals in T1.
but this suggestion was not rly about the 3 commanders, but the WL global support for himself and his army...vs other race mainly
and u even suggest on the other topic banshee nerf, about her chase potential

Is doombringer the new thing on Farseer? I used to see people run spear all the time and ignore the ability weapons, but now I never see gravity blade or singing spear.

xerrol-nanoha wrote:

Faultron wrote:u dont have heavy melee in T1, even if u could have doesnt rly matter:)
and singing spear on farseer is not so good option, she not a melee fighter, u better go doombringer and support ur other av units.
the blades on wse is only viable cos of his teleport chase and finish potential

T1 warlock clearly the strongest and in T2 as well i think
so it makes no reason for haveing both globals in T1.
but this suggestion was not rly about the 3 commanders, but the WL global support for himself and his army...vs other race mainly
and u even suggest on the other topic banshee nerf, about her chase potential

Is doombringer the new thing on Farseer? I used to see people run spear all the time and ignore the ability weapons, but now I never see gravity blade or singing spear.

gravity blade is not so important like in retail, u have other options now.and having doombringer on farseer was always very good since she is support commander, not melee fighter.you cant go all the time melee with spear against ranged focus fire(or ranged vehicles), she dont have even big health or supression kb immunity, until you go T3 armor.

with the singing spear you need an armour and really a couple of levels. it's increases her damage quite a bit but she generally doesn't need the damage; the abilities are more useful. plus it's expensive. i don't get it unless i need another source of light av for a dread.

The weapons were just an example, I didn't want to highlight them as a major/main difference or anything.

If you run with your FS lone hunter style and have the Singing Spear and Armor of Fortune she can basically take on almost any squad she encounters even in fight 1vs2. Of course it depends on the type of enemy units.

The reason why I would 'nerf' the Shees is that no matter what hero you're playing they can always chase retreating units for an extensive period of time. The change would actually improve the damage they'd deal to the units but unless they are in the retreat path they wouldn't get to swing their swords. Which is how it works for all the other units in the game.

I know shurikens are very important for eldar,
but in retail they had 9 pop not only to help this ,backbone' unit, but also to reduce the weakness of no upgrade, so u was forced to buy the brightlance shuriken in T2.

Now in elite this has been changed a bit, and i think pop should be 12, or atleast 10.
(D-cannon is also 12, and almost all other setup suppression teams)


And i still think 1 of the Warlock global should be moved to T2.

One of the many Eldar traits ~~
While the hb doesn't even have 1 trait.

Dark Riku wrote:One of the many Eldar traits ~~
While the hb doesn't even have 1 trait.

sm army doesnt rely as much on the suppression team like eldar.they are more fragile, and different army+playstyle.This is why eldar has better, or lets say IG.(but i dont know how IG need that, i dont play IG, and rarely see them vs my eldar)
(the devatator trait is heavy armor+slow on lascannon)

but my point was that in retail shuriken were designed to have 9 pop cos if shitty transition to T2, and u basicly bought 2-3 platform in games just cos of this.
now we have upgrade, we can play with 1 platform+ we got new units in T2 which helps to play with 1 platform even further.
so i dont think 9 pop is normal in elite.

Faultron wrote:(the devatator trait is heavy armor+slow on lascannon)

Those aren't fucking traits -.-
Unless all of a sudden SM's lascannon is the only one that snares.
Ow wait no the other ones do too and actually do a better job as well!!!

Dark Riku wrote:

Faultron wrote:(the devatator trait is heavy armor+slow on lascannon)

Those aren't fucking traits -.-
Unless all of a sudden SM's lascannon is the only one that snares.
Ow wait no the other ones do too and actually do a better job as well!!!

it is a trait but not unique, and only he has heavy armor + havocs(and gk if we want to count that unit, or nids warrior but these are different)

devastators get vengeance rounds wheeeey

vengeance rounds are pretty good, if somewhat niche.

there is your unique trait riku, besides the other traits:)


but what is with the shuri pop, is it ok?

Devastators have to pay 75 req to get that trait when all other setup teams start with their special trait. And yet another bad thing. If you upgrade vengeance rounds there will be no lascannon. Devastators are the worst AV setup team (the least damage) and the worst supression setup team (remember 75 req investment and the fact that it locks the av-upgrade). But that is the topic about Eldar anyway I had a plan in my head to create a topic about setup teams.

Faultron wrote:there is your unique trait riku, besides the other traits:)

They have no advantage over any of the setupteams. They have no traits!
They are straight up THE WORST.

No Riku, they've got some traits that makes them alright. It depends on how you look at it.

Heavy Armor IS a trait, regardless of your opinion on it. And it should be accounted for, disregardign that is just silly.

They have a good setup/tear-down time compared to alot of setup-teams, making them quite a manuverable heavy-damage setup team with respectable health-pool against piercing damage types. Compared to Shurikens that have 3/4 models (the Shuriken is afterall it's own entity, should the 3rd one die, the squad will die.

Shuriken has the highest manuverability and damage. However it also is quite suspectiable to even ranged damage due to being regular infantry. Meaning they're easier to fend off from ranged firefights/flanks

Devastators/Havocs are more potent at responding to the flanks, but more noticeable the Devastator due to their superior tear-down time. However, as they deal more damage - they deal less courage damage on the distances. The scenarios will itself and how the players respond to them makes this a very heavily subjective opinion on who is better and who is not.

They're quite potent to be very manuverable and scale with melta-bombs ASMs in T2 and in conjunction with Missile Launchers. Last and not least, the scouts shotgun to mitigate the pressure potential and safe-guard their surviveability and misc. other factors of course in that sense from unit composition. Compared to IG/Eldar in that sense, at least - they've got far better protection capability of their setup-teams and are better at punishing against engagements. Whereas the Shuriken is more potent at pressure potential due to it's speed and damage output. The setup/tear-down has no real significance in commiting to responding to a counter-push given their relative low health pool and etc;

Each setup-team has their traits, nobody is worse then the other. Espicially when you factor the overall army composition scaling performance of each corresponding faction.

Compared to IG/Eldar in that sense, at least - they've got far better protection capability of their setup-teams

What can IG do to protect their setup team? Let's look what other units can do.
1) Sentinel. Pretty much owns any jump squad with its stomp allowing the setup team to get away and stay on the field.
2) Catachans devils. They force melee with their insane damage and after 3 seconds they use the shotgun blast.
That is already great support.
But let's look at heroes. There is not much in t1 but some things are viable such as medkits (gotta manage to heal before your setup team lose a model), "GO, GO, GO" ability generally helps to kite away and that is great thing against stormboyz (no effect on landing), anti-supression ability helps to kite away from raptors, invisible setup team (the ability that the inquisitor provides), aura of discipline might help a bit and that is all I think.
What can Eldar do to protect their setup team? Let's look what other units can do.
Only banshees are good to force off a jump unit before they force off your setup team. High damage, the ability to supress, enough said.
2 heroes can provide very good support. The Farseer either debuff the jump unit to force it off even faster or buff the setup team to make it harder to force off (the ability that comes from the 1st armor) and I am not sure if these abilities can be used at the same time, she can heal and she can supress on demand as well. The Warlock can make your setup team immortal really. Chanelling runes heal will help to keep your setup team on the field and banshees will do the job.
And now about space marines...
1) Scouts with shotguns will do nice damage with shotguns (cannot be compared to incredibly high damage of catachans or banshees of course) and after 3 seconds will knockback and supress the jump unit.
2) Tactical marines can force melee with kraken bolts (against raptors, asm) to help to force off the jump squad faster
3) Assault marines can jump on the jump unit after 3 seconds
The FC and the Techmarine provides no support in t1. The Apo does. His heal and purification rites to knockback the jump unit.
And I would say IG/ELDAR provide better support for setup teams because of units with higher damage and better support from heroes.

Heavy Armor IS a trait, regardless of your opinion on it. And it should be accounted for, disregardign that is just silly.

It is but nothing else

They have a good setup/tear-down time compared to alot of setup-teams

Do they? I thought only the shuriken cannon had different setup/tear-down time.

However it also is quite suspectiable to even ranged damage due to being regular infantry.

I dunno I always setup them right in the face of ranged blob and in most cases able to supress them. Having immmortal main gun is a huge advantage. And devastator's member with the heavy bolter can be killed during setup time and you know what it can lead to

Caeltos, what about we remove restriction to get the lascannon once vengeance rounds equipped? I don't ask for anything else. Wanted to create a topic about that.

Caeltos, what about we remove restriction to get the lascannon once vengeance rounds equipped? I don't ask for anything else. Wanted to create a topic about that.

It has crossed my mind, and I haven't ruled it out. There would probably to quite some changes along the way if that ever gets implemented tho.

Those aren't fucking traits -.-
Unless all of a sudden SM's lascannon is the only one that snares.

Scout move speed is clearly not a trait either as Hormagaunts have identical move speed...

nope that logic doesn't work

FC and TM both can support devs/protect them from flanks. Battle Cry, Defend, Bionics, MCB in T1.

It might be in line with the existing SM theme for devastators to have significantly more health than other setup teams. Considering everything that's been said of their current weaknesses.

Earlier, Caeltos suggested that the heavy armor of Devs was a trait we should consider valuable. But without a sufficient health pool, that trait doesn't really accomplish much. When devs get jumped or ambushed they seem to die just as fast as the others do. If the advantage of the SM setup team was durability, it would fit their existing gameplay theme and make their devastators more competitive.

I also really liked the idea of being able to keep the option to get the lascannon even if you've purchased Vengeance rounds. That sounds like a good way of making the Devs more versatile (also in line with the existing SM theme). (Props to Sub_Zero for that idea)

Riku@
trait is trait negative or positive still trait. and trait not =unique for only one
in ur logic melee resistance should considered also not a trait...
and i tried to point out/leed in short basicly the same what Caeltos said here, but without this detailed.(in pm)
and after your responses (pm) i lost the respect towards you, sry
even if you dont care

Subzero@
heavy armor is not the only trait for them...read all the posts fully

but why Caeltos and others, you dont speak about the 9 pop shuri which is the main discussion here, in eldar topic
i think it was designed so cos of shuriken and brightlance were separate units and tiers (and maybe lack of units in T2), which you changed with upgrade+ability and added new units.Maybe i am wrong of course, but nobody replied anything yet about this.

Faultron wrote:but why Caeltos and others, you dont speak about the 9 pop shuri which is the main discussion here, in eldar topic
i think it was designed so cos of shuriken and brightlance were separate units and tiers (and maybe lack of units in T2), which you changed with upgrade+ability and added new units.Maybe i am wrong of course, but nobody replied anything yet about this.

I can't speak for other people, but I've never even considered the population discrepancy until you mentioned it. Not once in 5 years of playing this game. So, as usual, not being quick to jump to conclusions, I'm thinking about it. I don't want to start postulating things that I've never even fathomed.

Like some of the logic behind the original game design is just beyond me. Not to say it's created poor balance necessarily, just that I would never have thought of designing a game that way. For example, I remember Relic stated overtly that Eldar squad leaders were meant to be the best (hence the amazing way that shees and guardians and wraithguard etc scale with their leaders, especially in retail). Just a racial trait.

Maybe having low population setup teams is also a racial trait? Who the fuck knows? I certainly don't. Case in point, postulating with really minimal information and thought doesn't really achieve much.