Grey Knights Topic

[Torpid]

Unfortunately PS WATH interceptors annihilate catachans, as do double GL storms, as do incinerator strike squads and guardsmen die even faster. It's hard to cap since I require most of my army to fend off the BC. The sentinel doesn't scratch the GK HI units and interceptors may as well be immortal. Then in t2 ogryns are useless due to the dread, lascannon set-up teams just get jumped instantly by the interceptors/bc and ranged units all die too quickly vs the grenade launchers/interceptors.

[Black Relic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIql32SLBSM

I just watched this video from Indrid. I noticed this with the strike squads special attacks. They have a 360 special attack if you watch closely. I don't think they are supposed to have that. And i don't think they should either. It should be changed to something similar to ASM chainswords with a 75\-75.

Watch the slugga vs strike squad. 4:00 and Tactical vs strike squad. 19:50 just to name a few.

[Arbit]

Both the brother captain and strike squad have absurd specials that fling shit far and wide. At the very least the strike squad needs to have the knockback force reduced.

It's a very big gamble attacking either with sluggas, because you can go from solidly winning the fight at 60-70% health down to your squad scattered and nearly dead in an instant. It's worse than fighting banshees, and that's saying something.

[Dark Riku]

It's worse than fighting banshees, and that's saying something.

No it isn't.
1: they don't have power melee.
2: they aren't faster than normal units are like shes.
(To catch and kill you in retreat.)
3: they don't have an ability that makes them run even faster.
(to absolutely murder you in retreat.)
4: there are only 3 members, making banshees have more of a chance to actually knock over your units.

[crazyman64335]

LOL at the guy who says it's worse than fighting banshees, for all the forementioned reasons riku presented. it's eldar all over again. People are complaining they're getting stomped by them, yet can't play them for some odd reason. hmm how interesting.

And for people complaining about special attacks, seriously get over it. The unit costs 500 req, of course they should have a kick ass special attack. otherwise everyone would just open with 4x storm troopers or something, hmm giving me ideas

[Black Relic]

So everyone is ok with strike squads 360 degree special attack? Doesnt make sense to me but whatever I guess.

[crazyman64335]

So everyone is ok with strike squads 360 degree special attack? Doesnt make sense to me but whatever I guess.

based off that video it looks like 2 actually did specials from 2 different angles. even then, special attacks are so random that a player can't bank on them to win a fight.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

There's the fight with the catachans - 1 model versus 8 (with demoman). He knocks all of the catas surrounding him save one (not sure if he wasn't close enough for the hit). So definitely a 360 attack.

[Black Relic]

I forget which tac vs strike squad it was but one of the tactical Marines was clearly behind one of the members of the strike squad and he got knockedback. tac battle start around 19 minutes.

[Arbit]

LOL at the guy who says it's worse than fighting banshees, for all the forementioned reasons riku presented. it's eldar all over again. People are complaining they're getting stomped by them, yet can't play them for some odd reason. hmm how interesting.

And for people complaining about special attacks, seriously get over it. The unit costs 500 req, of course they should have a kick ass special attack. otherwise everyone would just open with 4x storm troopers or something, hmm giving me ideas

lolwut

You and Riku, try reading this again

It's a very big gamble attacking either with sluggas, because you can go from solidly winning the fight at 60-70% health down to your squad scattered and nearly dead in an instant. It's worse than fighting banshees, and that's saying something.

I'm talking specifically about sluggas vs the brocap or strike team, and specifically their special attack. The comparison to banshees was only based on how annoying their special attacks are - the strike team's seems bigger in radius and seems to throw stuff farther. How fast they are and whether they do power melee or not is totally irrelevant for the purposes of the comparison I made.

[Torpid]

*facepalm* Jesus christ people we're having a bad night tonight huh?

How about we read each other's posts before making comments, and if we do feel compelled to make a sarcastic/malicious/hostile comment, at least think twice about doing so.

[crazyman64335]

so wait, before this goes any further, how about we do a little comparison. Your units get knockbacked by a strike squad. Now you're probably going to retreat that squad and have them escape without a squad wipe.

Now let's compare them against banshees, not only is the special attack chance higher (more models = higher chances) but if they do a special, you're fucked because you can't run from banshees and your more likely to lose the squad.

Now after hearing that please tell me, which would you rather face? i've said it already and i'm going to keep saying it. NOBODY goes into a battle thinking "oh boy if i get a special attack i can win" because it's something that nobody has control over.

[Torpid]

so wait, before this goes any further, how about we do a little comparison. Your units get knockbacked by a strike squad. Now you're probably going to retreat that squad and have them escape without a squad wipe.

Now let's compare them against banshees, not only is the special attack chance higher (more models = higher chances) but if they do a special, you're fucked because you can't run from banshees and your more likely to lose the squad.

Now after hearing that please tell me, which would you rather face? i've said it already and i'm going to keep saying it. NOBODY goes into a battle thinking "oh boy if i get a special attack i can win" because it's something that nobody has control over.

That wasn't his point. He was using the phrase "It's worse than fighting banshees" as hyperbole, ya know to get his point across better through emphasis and all? It obviously didn't work. He meant that at least with a fight between sluggas & shees you know exactly when you need to retreat because a shee special doesn't instantly take off 40% of your squads hp, so you can always wait for that threshold of health to be pierced and then retreat. SS on the other hand just randomly get a special and you lose 4 models, now of course, you also have to account in the fact that they can get such specials in your retreat timings, but he's just talking about the obscene nature of it.

Also, NOBODY sends hormagaunts at a strike squad thinking "oh boy, if I'm lucky, those strike squad members won't get a special attack off on me and I shall utterly annihilate their pious asses with my superior dps".

[Dark Riku]

I'm talking specifically about sluggas vs the brocap or strike team, and specifically their special attack. The comparison to banshees was only based on how annoying their special attacks are - the strike team's seems bigger in radius and seems to throw stuff farther. How fast they are and whether they do power melee or not is totally irrelevant for the purposes of the comparison I made.

"LolWhut?" How about you learn how to read and write?
Because this: "The comparison to banshees was only based on how annoying their special attacks are" is not what you said in your original post.
You stated that fighting a strike squad is worse than fighting banshees in melee which is not true for numerous reasons already stated.

Also battles are usually fought with more than 1 unit....

[Codex]

Come on guys, not everyone here has English as their first language, so let's all just calm the fuck down and accept that we're going to have some misunderstandings. That goes for both comprehension and for expression.

That said, Arbit, please don't bait more by going lolwhut when people take what you say literally. After all, I'm an English speaker through and through and I still took the "worse than banshees" comment literally, or at least to the extent that you're really struggling to cope vs GK strikes. You could have gone a little out of your way to clarify your position when it was challenged; instead you arguably were belligerent.

(Lolwhut reading comprehension here I BOLDED IT FOR YOU)

@Riku, Crazy

Alright that's enough. E.g. this "How about you learn how to read and write?" is unnecessary.
Or at the very least you could have phrased it way nicer.

[Arbit]

I apologize for my snark. I was talking about a specific matchup (sluggas v strike team) and how annoying the strike team's special attack was, and that it was more devastating than banshee specials. I could reasonably be accused of hyperbole on the latter, as having watched Indrid's video it looks like they are about equal is AOE, knockback, and damage. Again, I was abstractly comparing the two special attacks there. Taking into account all attributes and army support, I do generally feel more comfortable sending sluggas against banshees, because with shoota support you can whittle them down pretty fast due to their HP and armor type. Strikes have better HP and due to their armor type take reduced damage from shoota support. As a way of explaining my annoyance for strike squad/banshee specials, I just generally hate matchups where random special attacks basically make or break the outcome of the fight. From Indrid's video, you can see that the strikes absolutely wiped the floor with unupgraded sluggas because of frequent knockbacks, whereas the burna sluggas won (barely) because the strikes only got off one or two specials.

I thought it was clear enough from context that I was not saying strikes were in general superior in melee, chasing, damage type etc. to banshees, but I guess not. If there's a misunderstanding between the writer and the reader, it's more often the writer's fault, so I accept my delicious slice of humble pie.

[Kvek]

Why is Vortex in t2 ? It does a shitton of damage and slows the target,
This thing can just blow up a termagaunt squad, the only way to avoid this is to retreat.

Also the Sword in t1 gives you an excellent bonus, and 60power_melee damage per hit, why is it for 20 power ?

[Caeltos]

Because it belongs there, that's the short and simple version.

I don't want "why is dis and dat in dis and dat tier". Honestly, one should be able to come to their own conclussion on why it's there. It doesn't help fuel the feedback at all, it just seems like mindless nagging.

[Kvek]

Not sure if an auto-force off ability (against high model/low hp) belongs to T2, and since it has the "slow effect" you can't really dodge it without retreating, can be combined with hellfury to just wipe out a terma squad in a few seconds. (even in retreat)
Or simply put it behind an enemy army, use a grenade barrage on them, move interceptors/purifiers (with or without WATH) and force him off.

[crazyman64335]

Not sure if an auto-force off ability (against high model/low hp) belongs to T2, and since it has the "slow effect" you can't really dodge it without retreating, can be combined with hellfury to just wipe out a terma squad in a few seconds. (even in retreat)
Or simply put it behind an enemy army, use a grenade barrage on them, move interceptors/purifiers (with or without WATH) and force him off.

can't dodge it without retreating? i beg to differ. i've seen plenty of people dodge the blob of glowing energy many a time. sure is it more difficult to see / dodge in the middle of combat absolutely. But it's by no means an "auto force off" wargear, the time the gk player spends microing the bomb is less time he's watching his army

[Kvek]

"cough" attack move "cough"

[Batpimp]

Why is Vortex in t2 ? It does a shitton of damage and slows the target,
This thing can just blow up a termagaunt squad, the only way to avoid this is to retreat.

Also the Sword in t1 gives you an excellent bonus, and 60power_melee damage per hit, why is it for 20 power ?

because barrage was not working i tried using this on a eldar player. believe me they had no problem dodging it. It was my best recourse for slowing down his shees before melee combat and it worked all of one time.

Also i used it against an IG player same game and he also had no problem moving around it.

[Kvek]

Barrage has nothing to do with the Vortex.
Yh he moved his sentinel out of it, and guardsmen got blown up ?
Also against Eldar the only reason he can dodge it with his units (run out of it) is FoF

If you want we can test it, just go orks/ig and i will use the vortex, want to see if your units can get out of it.

[Ar-Aamon]

I had the feeling that the psycannons of the Terminators/Paladins aren’t as good as the Purgation’s one.

So I tested it today and I was quite surprised to see their performance. To sum up: Don’t get them at all unless you want to make the squad weaker. It’s a vast of requisition and power. Their stormbolters do way more damage and the AV is so marginal (not even 4 dps) that is hasn't any effect on the battlefield.

First I let one level 1 Purgation Marine go against tics with AC. It took 44 sec to kill them. Next were KCSM with Champ. It took 1 min 50 sec to wipe them. Next was the Crusher and he stood for 55 sec. All were level 1 like the Purgation Marine.

After I did the same with 1 Termis/Paladin and here are the numbers. For the tics it took 1 min 37 sec as they stood close together (splash damage) and 2 min 36 sec as they aren’t very close. The Bloodcrusher stood for 2 mins and 41 sec. And the test with the KCSM I had to abort because it took annoyingly long. The stopwatch showed 4 mins as the KCSM lost their 1’000’s hp.

And yeah in 1 min and 7 sec you can finish the tics with the stormbolter.

@Torpid
Against GK try double sentis, cata and then a healbunker. Works very well but it needs a lot of micro for the sentis.

@Kvek
crazyman64335 made the point. Nothing to add, it can be carved in stone.

[Ace of Swords]

Paladins are a melee squad if you forgot about that, the psycannon is just there to add some damage on approaching/escaping vehicles.

And i want to add that no other terminator squad, beside having huge CD on their call in, a 350 red of cost, and just costing sightly less than paladins, has a passive aura, and both melee and ranged capabilities with that much healt.

[Ar-Aamon]

Yeah. Ace. I. know. All I was trying to say that you lose battle performence if you equip the Psycanon. And as I said the AV is lolz. Not worth to invest. 100/30 for 4 dps AV, orly?

And no need to compare with other Terminators. But you know the inspire/demoralize by kill. Not bad at all if you ask me. Nonetheless they are not the matter in dispute. It’s about the Psycanons.

[Kvek]

@Torpid
Against GK try double sentis, cata and then a healbunker. Works very well but it needs a lot of micro for the sentis.

you don't play 1v1s, do you ?

Also not sure if Crazy made the point, it's true that you have to (attack move) micro it.
But if your opponent wants to dodge it, he needs to move out of it, which takes time, and lets you do something to force him off easily.


Where can i find vortex's stats ?

[Torpid]

Yes, double sentinels is undoubtedly good vs gk. Discovered that a while ago thanks to ace.