Dawn of War Codex

Certainly not directly, but rather indrect through the knockback an (theoretical) ticket out. Apo also could lead/initiate an engagement. This would also mean, that the apo would be less on support, ergo not as important to keep on the field as long.

@Oddnerd

1. Yes they could counter more then 2 setup teams. Set-up spam is incredibly annoying and no faction relies on set-ups. Also that means Apo couldn t access rites to counter cheap/squishy melee to drag them down. And Apo can t support as well, due to having less abilities/energy and jumping set-ups means splitting him from the main force; so even if he had the energy, getting in range would also be needed.

2. It would be either rites or jumppack.
Merciless needs to be times and then robs you of the save jump out/jump on another set-up. ALso Apo can t dump his abilities out as fast as he could without pack, due to energy lack.
Now you can have stims and heal, then you would need to decide.
Besides, the combination you mentioned is already possible. So an jumppack would change the source of the knockback, have no dmg on impact. So it is actually weaker then the combo now


Regarding the stormbolter, why not make it like an AoE slow? It would be like suppression, but actually affect large units.

TE | NoSkill wrote:And Apo can t support as well, due to having less abilities/energy and jumping set-ups means splitting him from the main force; so even if he had the energy, getting in range would also be needed.

This is no different from the current situation necessarily - currently, jumping SUTs typically involves moving your ASMs out of healing distance from the apo and requiring him to close the gap to heal them. It doesn't even make melee fights more fair either; if the jump pack gives the apo 20 energy, then a level 1 apo now has enough energy for a jump followed by a heal (115 energy). This means that you can do up to 3 KBs in a row, and have your Apo stick close to the ASM and heal them without any risk of being tied down and prevented from closing the gap. You lose out on the damage of rites (which you claim is only decent after T1), but you gain the benefit of still having 3 successive KBs and the assurance that your apo will remain close to the ASMs and be able to join combat at a moment's notice, ready to engage in combat with the respectable damage output of his axe or sword (and his commander's melee skill for more specials).

Don't forget to factor leveling into your equation here - once the apo hits level 5, he now has enough for a jump, a heal, and a stim all without interruption (155 energy IIRC). At higher levels he could even have a second jump depending on the CD.

This is just looking at 2 situations in a vacuum of course. There is the broader consideration that the jump pack just makes him more versatile overall. If you are facing an enemy that likes to take the fight to you with low-hp melee units, you can still go for the standard rites build. But now, you can also take the fight to your enemy much better than before - and further improve the amazing synergy between ASMs and the apo by allowing him to keep in healing range of them with his jump. You claimed that the apo's playstyle is too 1-dimensional right now and you offered a solution that involved a straight-up improvement to his versatility. The problem is that your jump pack doesn't solve that in a balance-friendly way, and there is no reason to promote more diverse gameplay if it comes at the expense of game balance. As I believe you and others have pointed out, the problem is that certain wargears are too good and too niche to promote diverse play styles from apos, and that is why we see such homogeneous gameplay from most apos. The way to solve this kind of issue is to address the internal balance of his wargears, not just adding OP shit.

LOCALgHOST wrote:
it will cripple bolter to the ground - apo can't counter CL and BC then

Why on Earth should the apo be able to counter CL/BC with a point + click ability?

TE | NoSkill wrote:We went along perfectly and I had no trouble till this page;

Except piano, everybody stayed on point and made valid points. And even piano then did something more then just bitch and played with me a few games, tho it took him an age and would probably not have been needed, if he would have actually discussed.
Then Oddnerd came and started it all over again, with several folks jumping the train (Kira and Black Relic).

I do not work on listen and believe, exspecially not by people I don t know and who come up with no arguments other then " u just suck, get better n00b" and "Nobody agrees with u", no matter how they state this.

And I am capable of changing my mind, that´s why I did not press the issue further on SC and now have to agree, that rites on their own are good as they are ( piano showed me the chain knockback with rites-ASM-Scouts ingame, tho he could have just stated it).
Tho I always said, that rites in combo could have an additional effect, so he kinda missed the point anyway.
Ffs, I even discussed about the APA, even tho I stated it´s fine to me.
I always came back on point, so what more do you want in an not yet ended discussion such as this??

Regarding this, should I update the original post?

Also @Oddnerd, tf u say I´m salty because I lose???
I said in the first post, that Apo is not weak, but plays too 1-dimensional,certain options are quiet niche and seldom seen, in contrary to Armor of Apothecarion, Advanced med and bolter. And this is boring to face again and again.

Errata:

First things first, I should be fair. Some of your posts are not in Balance Discussion. But you started there and a lot of your posts are there.

Still, I'd prefer you respond directly to my points because you seem to not want to respond to them directly. Just use the numbered points because it will be easier.

1. Nope, not everything was going perfectly. The fact is you've had arguments with people before:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3832&start=60
with a couple deleted posts
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3832&p=67683#p67683

Two locked threads that descended into Chaos.

The fact that you think it was all going fine shows that you have no idea that your posting style is aggravating. Think ege posted these already but I'm relinking them anyway.

2. I chose my words very carefully. I said you don't seem to change your mind, because sure, you drop a subject without acknowledging you've changed your mind. But then you find some other suggestion you want to give Apo. Again, this is very philosophically suspect because the entire premise of this thread is that Apo melee needs some kind of buff. That's really all there is to it. Apo melee doesn't need a toy, doesn't need a cool thing to play with, because as I said,

The rule of.cool has no weight in this forum.

So the only kind of reason why something like a jump pack should appear is to make Apo stronger. <= Premise.

You have not proven this premise, in fact your suggestions assume this premise to be true when the vast majority of posters do not think this to be true.

3. I made it very simple for you, yet you still choose to sidestep it. Show me one post where you've just put up your hands and said, fair enough, you were right, and I was wrong.

Look, even if and when you've changed your mind, if you've never done this, and argue, and argue, and argue, this makes it so that you have an inflammatory posting style, because people don't see your threads making any progress.

It really doesn't matter if you've changed your mind or not (and as a philosopher by trade I really still wonder how much you actually have changed your mind), if people cannot see some evidence that you have. People aren't mind readers, and it's even harder to read people on the internet. So if you have changed your mind, it would actually literally 100% help you if you stated that in your posts and give credit where it's due.

So yes, it really does matter that you show you change your mind, at least sometimes.


On an aside note:

In all likeliness I don't think you're bad NoSkill. Some people conflate being bad with not fully understanding game design. But they're really not the same thing. People shitposting still need to get slapped down.

if we can keep the level of posting up and make things more logical/arguments laid out properly then we'll have a lot fewer problems in general. So keep it up.

Regarding Apo bolter:
Just remove the silly AoE effect from bolter stun.

Also +1 to what Codex has said. He is a very thinky, smarty and brainy moderator and you should listen to him. Especially since he has taken the time to very carefully elaborate his points. I get pretty much the same vibes from you (NoSkill) as Codex (though he has expressed himself more elaborately than I can).

@Oddnerd

High risk, high reward; if apo heals, he cannot jump out, if he does , he can t support as well.
By also beeing an T2 wargear, it would not make Set-ups more obsolet then they are now in T1.

It does make him more versatile, yes;
Tho it is the melee options, that would benefit the most from it, obviously.
If it was OP or not would need to be tested, to have certainty.Throwing hypothetical situations at each other will see us dying before we reach an conclusion.
It would also be easier to implement then to rework several other options.
Speaking of which, how would the "internal balance" need to be changed?
Which gear needs to be changed?

@Codex

I do not answer everything in detail, because I don t want to produce an wall of text not related to the discussion.
I don t want this thread derailed, as my previous did.

The " was going all fine" was meant at this thread only and not general.

The premise of this thread is, that the apo is too 1-dimensional in what he does and that an melee apo is not as effective as the ultimate combo.
That s why I suggested an jumppack, to make apo melee more effective (while bringing fresh wind into apo play).

As I said, piano was right, when he said rites need no buff on their own. Yet that was not my point!

So I ask again, should I update the OP ?

TE | NoSkill wrote:@Oddnerd

High risk, high reward; if apo heals, he cannot jump out, if he doesnt , he can t support as well.
By also beeing an T2 wargear, it would not make Set-ups more obsolet then they are now in T1.

It does make him more versatile, yes;
Tho it is the melee options, that would benefit the most from it, obviously.
If it was OP or not would need to be tested, to have certainty.Throwing hypothetical situations at each other will see us dying before we reach an conclusion.
It would also be easier to implement then to rework several other options.
Speaking of which, how would the "internal balance" need to be changed?
Which gear needs to be changed?

if it will be 4th wargear in weapon slot with restriction to bolter (jumppack + some melee sword/claw) it would be fun. IME will give it a nice energy boost, but can we change ability cost then with IME? So jump costs 55, but with IME it would be 70. And ability cooldown about 15 sec

TE | NoSkill wrote:@Codex


The " was going all fine" was meant at this thread only and not general.

The premise of this thread is, that the apo is too 1-dimensional in what he does and that an melee apo is not as effective as the ultimate combo.
That s why I suggested an jumppack, to make apo melee more effective (while bringing fresh wind into apo play).

As I said, piano was right, when he said rites need no buff on their own. Yet that was not my point!

So I ask again, should I update the OP ?

Thank you for your response.

"I do not answer everything in detail, because I don t want to produce an wall of text not related to the discussion.
I don t want this thread derailed, as my previous did."

I understand your approach here, but it's misguided.

If people have taken the time to write their arguments and detail, and you intentionally ignore them, it looks like you're dodging their points rather than addressing them. And as I've said, your posting style is aggravating to people, so I'm trying to help you resolve that.

"The " was going all fine" was meant at this thread only and not general."

Yes but that's clearly not the case though. I've been away from this community for 2 years but I could already see the number of people that you were aggravating with your posting style. And all posts have a history. Just think of the number of times you have received exasperated posts as replies on this forum or on discord.

"The premise of this thread is, that the apo is too 1-dimensional in what he does and that an melee apo is not as effective as the ultimate combo."

Yes but again, most people think melee Apo is fine and has uses, especially outside of 1v1. If melee Apo is fine, he's not too 1-dimensional. The onus is still on you to prove that melee Apo isn't good enough to be utilised. As far as the discussion goes, every single post should be about whether melee Apo is good enough, we shouldn't be on the stage of discussing potential changes to the Apo. This is the major point of contention.

Besides, "make apo melee more effective= buff", but again this assumes the entire premise of melee Apo needs a buff

"As I said, piano was right, when he said rites need no buff on their own. Yet that was not my point!"

Refer to my previous paragraph.

"So I ask again, should I update the OP ?"

No, it's much simpler than that. Don't update the OP, just say:

"Okay, fine, you're right."
and then address why you think melee Apo is UP until we have established melee Apo is UP. The thread cannot move forward until this point is established.

It might not seem like a big deal to you but it really does affect how others perceive you online. Case in point, first thing I did when I realised that I was incorrect about your not having posted other forums was I went back and corrected myself. All your first posts were in balance discussions but then you did some other posts elsewhere. This is because I am happy to admit I'm wrong when I am wrong and change my views and am vocal about when I change my mind.

TL;DR: If in fact you do change your mind about as much as you say, it would simply help to state in your next post that you've changed your mind. It's really that simple.

LOCALgHOST wrote:

TE | NoSkill wrote:@Oddnerd

High risk, high reward; if apo heals, he cannot jump out, if he doesnt , he can t support as well.
By also beeing an T2 wargear, it would not make Set-ups more obsolet then they are now in T1.

It does make him more versatile, yes;
Tho it is the melee options, that would benefit the most from it, obviously.
If it was OP or not would need to be tested, to have certainty.Throwing hypothetical situations at each other will see us dying before we reach an conclusion.
It would also be easier to implement then to rework several other options.
Speaking of which, how would the "internal balance" need to be changed?
Which gear needs to be changed?

if it will be 4th wargear in weapon slot with restriction to bolter (jumppack + some melee sword/claw) it would be fun. IME will give it a nice energy boost, but can we change ability cost then with IME? So jump costs 55, but with IME it would be 70. And ability cooldown about 15 sec

IME and pack would occupy the same slot.
Bolter and pack would not synergize that well, as you technically don t need the extra mobility to use ur bolter.

@Codex

I shall state, why apo melee isn t as desireable and how that could be changed by an pack.
Once I get home....

Nurland wrote:Regarding Apo bolter:
Just remove the silly AoE effect from bolter stun.

This could've easily been done by changing the method from several shots to one shot like TM's MCB, which surprises me that it hasn't been done already.

OK then. But keep these in mind for your next post.

1: How does Apo lack in melee right now? Don't say that he dies easy or its not great damage. Because we have already established that the Apo is a support commander who is meant to be fragile. Keeping his design in mind, how is his melee damage bad?

2: How was fighting with Apo not working out? Give us a scenario that you have frequently bumped you head on with no good results.

3: How does a Jump Pack fix the Apo's with his melee capabilities being "sub-par?" Do not say that it will help him jump around and do less supporting of the army. That is a given and you already mentioned that. You want the Jump Pack because his melee is not great. How does a Jump Pack make the Apo a better combatant in melee? Does it increase his HP? Melee Skill? Damage? Charge Range? Those effect his melee capabilities. Jumping and being more mobile and versatile in how the Apo starts an engagement(or get away from a fight) does not help his melee prowess.

4: What builds and unit compositions would make this possibly OP? You can't only just say you think this and that without give some theoretical in- game scenarios. Vs what match ups would the Jump Pack fall flat ( Just pictured an Apo jump were he lands on his face hehe ), and name some were it would shine. How would the Apo with a Jump Pack be better at making the support commander be better and being a support commander, if it makes him worse in any way its not a viable option.

Please take some of those points into consideration when you make your explanation.

TE | NoSkill wrote:@Oddnerd
High risk, high reward; if apo heals, he cannot jump out, if he does , he can t support as well.

You have a habit of saying that adding something completely new would be ok because there is a tradeoff between it and preexisting wargears; this is not the correct way to look at it.... Yes, he cannot get the jump pack AND the rites, but he still has access to both. You could add 100 new wargears in the same wargear slot and say "it's ok because when you pick 1 it has trade-offs with the others"... but the critical point that you have admitted yourself is:

It does make him more versatile, yes;

With your proposed change, the apo can be everything he is able to be now, and he can also function as a second jump unit without making the SM player pay the hefty upkeep for another ASM (and it allows him to follow his ASM everywhere for those timely heals). Sure, if he jumps and heals, he can't jump a 2nd time, but that is in comparison to the current apo who cannot jump at all and therefore is never faced with that choice to begin with.

I don't know how many different ways I have to say that you are proposing a straight-up buff to the apo. It doesn't matter if the jump pack and rites come at the expense of one another... it still means an entirely new play style opens up to the apo while still permitting all the previous ones. One of the core design principles of this game is that no one gets to be everything - everyone has defined strengths and weaknesses. You are proposing adding a wargear that would add a completely new and potent method of playing the apo while keeping all the currently existing ones, which more experienced players will admit are still quite strong when used well.

Speaking of which, how would the "internal balance" need to be changed?
Which gear needs to be changed?

This dead horse has been beaten several times this thread - it is obviously the bolter. The apo's melee options get seen less because the bolter is so strong it dominates most of his builds. If you address the problems with that, you will start to see less of the 1-dimensional gameplay you mentioned as being the reason for starting this thread.

Psycho wrote:

Nurland wrote:Regarding Apo bolter:
Just remove the silly AoE effect from bolter stun.

This could've easily been done by changing the method from several shots to one shot like TM's MCB, which surprises me that it hasn't been done already.

precision and stormbolters don t go that well together...

@Black Relic

As I said, sending apo into melee is not desireable to begin with, as it exposes him to an far greater risk then keeping him back. And as some folks rightfully said, you want apo to maximise his support efficiency. This is usually achieved through dragging it out.
Sending him into melee risks retreatkills and he can t stay long( reducing support)+ does not have something, that qualifies him for it beyond special attacks.
That´s why the bolter is such an more safer and effective pick.
His melee options I acknowledge are good in what they are intended, SC perhaps a bit less dmg.

When I use APA, the Apo dies too quickly; knochbacks/specials and dakka make certain of it, even with the 100 hp extra.
If I use SC, the Apo does not do enough to have an impact into the battle and I have to rely on shock tactics with stims/heal ASM, otherwise I´m getting dragged down.
In both cases getting into melee unharmed enough is also an factor, tho less with SC.



I want an jumppack, because I think it would neutrailze risks ( too much dmg before the fight, retreat kill, nothing to aid besides special)enough to allow for more rewarding aggressive play (supporting pushes), effectively lowering the domincance of the stormbolter.
As I stated above, my concern was the 1-dimensional gameplay through stormbolter-IME- ArmorOfApothecarion for it´s efficiency.
I did not mean to state, that Apo´s melee directly should be be much stronger!

This would certainly make the ASM/ Apo combo stronger, tho I dont know how much given the energy needed for the pack.
It could make retreatwipes more possible, for that the stormbolter may be the worst offender with his dmg.
Ultimate combo there would probably be APA-stims-pack, probably Apothecarion also on higher levels.
It could make an highly mobile army quiet annoying to deal with tho with all the disruption.

Of other things I can t think of, coz pack is T2. Apo has no anti vehicle and massive Aoe effect with it.

Against Eldar; prolly not good, as Eldar are one of the harder MU´s for SM. High dmg, controll and Banshees
Against Orcs: prolly better, as orkz tend to be kinda squishy till T3 and can get overwhelmed. Aggressive against orcs with double ASM has granted me good success (admittetly it was on ranged heavy orcs).
Against Nids: Rites would here probably be better, due to swarm tendancies. And nids have the ultimate melee superiority unit. Might prove good against nid ranged blob tho.
Against Guard This would probably the most one-sided MU; Guard can only shoot and disruption is an problem for them. Static warefare impossible. Tho tripple guards plasma with chimera might still be good.
Against Chaos Probably even, Chaos can meet melee (without rites) head on.
Grey KnightsAlso even, for the same reasons.
Other SM Certainly better against the TM then the FC.

It would allow the Apothecary work better in aggressive support with the poweraxe and the disruption, making melee apo more safe to play.
Basically the mirror to Apothecarion-stormbolter-IME.

@Oddnerd

So he has access to both.
And?
It still costs something and is seperated by tiers. You could have 100 wargears, yet it does not matter if you can only afford 5 to not cut corners anywhere.
Same with tacs; also have all options, yet ppl seldom use 1 squad and switch permanently.

Yes, he could do everything he can do now. But not in the same efficiency; fighting in melee to regain energy or shooting from afar with IME is an difference.
Also units, that can fight versatile still can t do everything at the same time; so u still would need to decide to jump and risk getting forced off or stay back and support through Aura and heal. What is important, is him not beeing able to do so at the same time till level 5(?).

Apos weaknesses would still be the same; low hp, no AV/ heavy dmg option, no mass controll

It would not change, how good he supports, but in which way; aggressive or passive.



And nerfing the bolter would not make going into melee more attractive, when the premise is to keep the hero on the field as long as possible.
Same thing why the singing spear is not seen that often.

TE | NoSkill wrote:So he has access to both.
And?

Now he is able to take on another kind of role that he would not be able to without the jump pack. The jump pack is not just a slight enhancement to existing melee apo builds - it would completely change how he plays.

It still costs something and is seperated by tiers. You could have 100 wargears, yet it does not matter if you can only afford 5 to not cut corners anywhere.
Same with tacs; also have all options, yet ppl seldom use 1 squad and switch permanently.

There you go, making the same damn argument and missing the point. The point is that having access to an additional wargear opens up a new build option for him that allows for a new play style which he did not have before - it will allow the apo to be good at things which he currently is not good at, like hopping around the battlefield and bullying ranged blobs or SUTs. The fact that they are separated by tiers and that both have separate costs is completely irrelevant and meaningless and I don't know why you are constantly bringing them up... I cannot explain to you in any simpler terms why that line of thinking completely misses the point of our objections to your jump pack suggestion.

Yes, he could do everything he can do now. But not in the same efficiency;

Completely wrong. People could choose to not buy the jetpack and build the exact same builds they are building now, which rely on rites to dominate low-hp melee units. It would have the exact same efficiency as it has now unless the stats of the current wargears were nerfed. In situations where rites is the best item to build (when you are against horms/shees/sluggas/tics) you could still run the same old build that we see now. However, if you find yourself against an opponent who relies more on ranged domination, then you could avoid rites (since rites are not effective at dealing with ranged blobs) and opt to purchase the jetpack instead, allowing your apo to become a very functional jump troop who can bully ranged units in the same manner as ASM. It doesn't matter that there is "a tradeoff", because if you opponent is sinking most of his resources into ranged superiority, he won't be able to also achieve melee superiority, making the loss of rites not at all problematic.

Apos weaknesses would still be the same; low hp, no AV/ heavy dmg option, no mass controll

Wrong again - right now one of the best ways to counter apo is to drive him off with ranged damage - if he can get a jump pack, now he can close the gap instantly, disrupt the ranged units he lands on, and proceed to bully the ranged units along with ASM. He isn't the tankiest commander, but an apo caught in the middle of your ranged blob along with some ASMs would be way more of a pain in the ass than he currently is to any ranged blob. Throw in his heal ability (120 energy means he can heal without waiting for energy after a jump) and some passive heal from SC, and he will still be quite hard to drive off.

And nerfing the bolter would not make going into melee more attractive, when the premise is to keep the hero on the field as long as possible.
Same thing why the singing spear is not seen that often.

If the reason why we don't see many melee apos is because the bolter is so OP that it is an auto-pick, then yes, nerfing it to a more balanced state would mean we would see more melee builds.

Thiiiiiiis might be long.

TE | NoSkill wrote: @Black Relic

As I said, sending apo into melee is not desireable to begin with, as it exposes him to an far greater risk then keeping him back. And as some folks rightfully said, you want apo to maximise his support efficiency. This is usually achieved through dragging it out.
Sending him into melee risks retreatkills and he can t stay long( reducing support)+ does not have something, that qualifies him for it beyond special attacks.
That´s why the bolter is such an more safer and effective pick.
His melee options I acknowledge are good in what they are intended, SC perhaps a bit less dmg.

If sending him into melee is a huge risk why get a Jump Pack? If you want this t2 it wont see any play at all. Since there are t2 dedicated melee squads everywhere. ASM can hardly handle the pressure when they jump. Apo, and ASM Jump wont do anything. You mention he will take less damage coming in for aggressive play due to Jump. Ok. But what will he do vs counter initiation? There is nearly ALWAYS a melee squad around if ASM or any jump troop is on the field.

Plus IMO i would be getting Jump Pack and the Bolter. I could always re position to heavy cover. Making backing off from a chasing army better because that would allow me to return fire a bit to help make keep the enemy off my back (or take a model out) plus you would NEVER kill the Apo since you wont catch him. Always in heavy cover. Can Jump in if needed to JUST tie up. Pretty much techmarine DPS with a Jump Pack that deals disruption, and provides mobility, heals (even when he is level 1 he can if jump is only 20 Energy, if it s 50 he much wait for about 10 seconds) and can (atm) stun a targeted hero, subcommander or dangerous squad leader.

One thing you must consider when suggesting a wargear is taking into account that some people will not play with your idea in the way you envisioned it.

Another thing i could do is use Advanced Healing and almost negate the slowing effect of the ability by jumping around. Yea it takes alot of energy ok. Ill just purchases IME and once that removes the Jump Pack repurchase the Jump Pack to maximize the energy regen. since i wouldn't have to spend the resources again. Jump, Heal, fight won, purchase IME, wait for 15-20 seconds, Switch to Jump Pack, rinse and repeat.

TE | NoSkill wrote: When I use APA, the Apo dies too quickly; knochbacks/specials and dakka make certain of it, even with the 100 hp extra.
If I use SC, the Apo does not do enough to have an impact into the battle and I have to rely on shock tactics with stims/heal ASM, otherwise I´m getting dragged down.
In both cases getting into melee unharmed enough is also an factor, tho less with SC.

APA is a wargear that is meant for him to counter initiate. To fight Jump Troops or to smack on shees when they run into the fight Every 2 smacks kills a slugga if he hits the same model. (though the wind down for each attack could be decreased by 0.1 seconds and that would be a pretty dramatic buff since his wind down is like 0.7 seconds while MoK CSM wind down for their axes is 0.3 or something crazy low)

Besides nearly every hero hates being knocked back, and dakka doesn't help either. In fac t a Jump Pack will put him in harms way and he'll get specialed more and dakkaed down more. If the only way this Wargear can work is with ASM then its not worth considering. Let me be clear on that.

He is not a front line Hero. SC make him front line When ASM are around. Or He can take on most hero who has no weapon upgrade in t1 and will always come out on top. He is a bully with the weapon in t1 regardless of how well it does in other tiers. You just have to watch him closely. IDK if it still does (caz it used to) Apo's aura stacked with Scouts ET, so try a scout build??

TE | NoSkill wrote:I want an jumppack, because I think it would neutrailze risks ( too much dmg before the fight, retreat kill, nothing to aid besides special)enough to allow for more rewarding aggressive play (supporting pushes), effectively lowering the dominance of the stormbolter.
As I stated above, my concern was the 1-dimensional gameplay through stormbolter-IME- ArmorOfApothecarion for it´s efficiency.
I did not mean to state, that Apo´s melee directly should be be much stronger!

Initially you thought his melee wanted to be better. I had no idea you changed your mind since you never have mentioned that to my knowledge. Maybe you did and i miss understood you.

But Apo already support pushes and rewards aggressive play. Rites fills that vs some match ups and the Vials does it too vs the others. Refer to the 1 statement in this post for the Jump Pack making him aggressive play and such.

Stormbolter is is strong not only due to its ability though. It allows the Apo to poar on damage from a safe distance making him harder to focus down since when someone plays vs and Apo thatch usually their first concern. Or it is for me at least.

Him Jumping to me to fight (even if ASM are around since if ASM are on the field i will try to have a t2 melee squad around) is a dream come true tbh.

TE | NoSkill wrote:This would certainly make the ASM/ Apo combo stronger, tho I dont know how much given the energy needed for the pack.
It could make retreatwipes more possible, for that the stormbolter may be the worst offender with his dmg.
Ultimate combo there would probably be APA-stims-pack, probably Apothecarion also on higher levels.
It could make an highly mobile army quiet annoying to deal with tho with all the disruption.

The ultimate combo is AoA, Bolter, Pack at higher levels. F the disruption from melee Apo and ASM good luck dealing with my heals for Days and you can never get to the Apo just he keeps jumping back and resetting the engagement.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Of other things I can t think of, coz pack is T2. Apo has no anti vehicle and massive Aoe effect with it.

You are SM. They have a plethora of AV options in t2.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Against Eldar; prolly not good, as Eldar are one of the harder MU´s for SM. High dmg, control and Banshees

Yes but Storm bolter and Pack will DESTROY eldar imo. they cannot effectively approach anymore without taking loses alll the time. Rangers will have a hard time too because the MOMENT they shoot (if they do so after an engagement) the Apo just jump on top of them and kills a model with the bolter unless they retreat. Even if he has no energy, purchase the IME and then switch back. 20 seconds then BOOM back online.

Warlock would be the counter, AS ALWAYS!!! Warp Spider with Heavy Gaudge Death Spinner. Farseer Ghost Helm, Apo will die EVERY TIME if he becomes too aggressive like i mean if he isnt not at 35 range he is going to die if he doe not retreat fast or start backing off to supporting unit.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Against Orcs: prolly better, as orkz tend to be kinda squishy till T3 and can get overwhelmed. Aggressive against orcs with double ASM has granted me good success (admittetly it was on ranged heavy orcs).

Would terribad vs Orks with on demand suppression from shoota boys. That alone will nearly kill the APO period. Regardless if he was melee or if he had the Bolter. Not to mention the weird boy and painboy making everything he is doing difficult. VS Mek Boy, he can always tie you up if the bolter is purchased and if you have the Axe? well, dakka dakka dakka. K nob? Tripe Shot, nuf said. Warboss? Shoot 'Em good in stormbolter apo with pack or Big stomp if melee apo

TE | NoSkill wrote:Against Nids: Rites would here probably be better, due to swarm tendancies. And nids have the ultimate melee superiority unit. Might prove good against nid ranged blob tho.

Vials will be better 100% of the time. It helps to allow you to better focus damage on the synapse creatures while the vials do their work on the guants. Range blob? ASM and throw the vials on them. You can just heal that damage. Plus Lictor Alpha will have a field day if you go aggressive with Apo.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Against Guard This would probably the most one-sided MU; Guard can only shoot and disruption is an problem for them. Static warefare impossible. Tho tripple guards plasma with chimera might still be good.

no no no no. Jump pack will NEVER work here. Catachans will destroy the Apo. If you got ASM then there most likely will be ograns. It will never work here. If they got 3 GMs and a Chimer then all the more reason to NOT get a Jump Pack since it will not be worth while at all imo.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Against Chaos Probably even, Chaos can meet melee (without rites) head on.

The one of the best match ups for a Jumping Melee Apo imo. APA is power melee every swing at level one is 130 damage He want to kill MoT CSM, Halvoc, Noise Marines, smack on BC so they can use their abilities, smack on bloodletter so they can never phase shift, wants to smack on cultists since he will nearly on hit a cultist. SO long has he has support. A Jumping Apo will be a nightmare imo in early-mid t2.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Grey KnightsAlso even, for the same reasons.

Apo with Pack is not awful because they have good melee units. It is bad due to Strike Squads energy burst or whatever the ability is. It snares and burns like 50 energy which the Apo needs. That enough makes Jump Pack near useless, the same reaosn why Energy Bubbles are useless vs them.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Other SM Certainly better against the TM then the FC.

Melee Apo can be pretty good here in niche t2 builds IF you gain a solid lead from t1 but the on demand KB from shotguns and the Stuernguard might rock his world with Kraken Rounds. Regardless if he has the APA or the Storm Bolter.

TE | NoSkill wrote:It would allow the Apothecary work better in aggressive support with the poweraxe and the disruption, making melee apo more safe to play.
Basically the mirror to Apothecarion-stormbolter-IME.

Giving the Apo a jump pack and making him safe to play would mean waiting for the engagement to be well underway and that jumping him in. as a surprise. He would have to remain at the back doing nothing until its safe to bring him in. He could not be aggressive at all. Nothing would change. If he started a fight in t2, he will die in 2 seconds apon landing. He would require ASM to jump with him. The only way you could possibly to aggressive with him not taking focus fire and not have ASM is to A move your army to take the initial burst of damage burn your heal to offset some of the damage you toke on approach and then jump in. That wont work.


Done. Oof.

Apo melee is fine/fun. Replay:

https://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/ ... &id=331378

Anyway jump pack as accessory slot item is bad, because it should work
a) without bolter
b) with vials or rites

then it will be solid apo melee build - jump, and KB/vials - u'll see the new shiny melee apo

apo with jump and rites could be hell, but it's T2, baby!

p.s. I don't care about jump pack, just crafting arguments.

p.p.s. and I got a crazy thought - maybe it's TM who need it Just imagine axe + jump

I won t be able to address the impressive post you made in its entirety now, so here is the most important things I got out of it;

Advanced medical equipment does not give you 100 energy immediatly, but enlarges only the pool. That means, even with the +1e/s it would take an fully depleated bar around 65 seconds to recharge it with an rate of 1,5 e/s
That is a lot of time, exspecially including the 20 seconds for the switch.

What I also said is, that it is not favourable enough to send the apo into melee and that an pack would lower the bar of inefficiency as I mentioned above.
Also Axe does 100 dmg per hit not 130 as someone said.

And to address the large paragraph;
Yes, i am aware, that the apo could not be used in the way an FC can be used offensively. That is good so.
He would need to move with the army and fight with the bulk, till melee kicks off, then he can go in.
Apo will not go in first, but second; With ASM jump or Tacs and shotgun-scouts close-range, supported by droppods.
APA would then allow him to regen energy and play his support, while pushing on. Or Sanguine to be annoying and disturb the backline.

PS: scouts regen bonus only works out of combat, so another point to NOT play apo melee.

TE | NoSkill wrote:I won t be able to address the impressive post you made in its entirety now, so here is the most important things I got out of it;

Advanced medical equipment does not give you 100 energy immediatly, but enlarges only the pool. That means, even with the +1e/s it would take an fully depleated bar around 65 seconds to recharge it with an rate of 1,5 e/s
That is a lot of time, exspecially including the 20 seconds for the switch.

I know. It does not give it to you immediantly.............. The energy regen I provides is alot as you mentioned. 2 energy per second plus it added the 1.5 to the base 0.5 the apo start with (not including energy regen increase form levels) so after 20 plus the 15 seconds it take the switch back to the jump pack seconds thats 2 times 35 = 70 energy. That's is alot. I don't care about energy pool increase or having a full bar. I do not care all i want is increase energy regen. because energy regen is were its at for Apo.

That is how high level players work. They dont care if there hero is full hp or not. They don't care if their setup teams only has two models. They don't care if they baraly won a fight and are capping with scouts that only have the sarge. They will decap/cap and then back off. They are going to use whatever advantage they can get as you should too. If you had the options to purchase IME and have it only increase your energy regen for 20 seconds before going back to rites and it costs you nothing extra afterward. You should do it.

TE | NoSkill wrote:What I also said is, that it is not favourable enough to send the apo into melee and that an pack would lower the bar of inefficiency as I mentioned above.
Also Axe does 100 dmg per hit not 130 as someone said.

Its is entirely favorable depending on what you are facing. A support commander with a t1 weapon upgrade should not be carrying the Sm player in t3 or mid t2. We have established that, and you agree.

The APA does power melee damage. Meaning 30% more to HI and SHI. And i said in my post i believe that vs Chaos you are hitting CSM for 130 damage due to the weapon type being effective vs their armor type. Sooo yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

You inefficacy you keep mentioning is all it will do is lower how mach range damage he take on approach. That cannot be the ONLY point for the argue meant for a jump pack. We know he can tie things up easier. I mentioned that in my last post. I know he would take less damage on approach. Ill continue this on the quote/

TE | NoSkill wrote:And to address the large paragraph;
Yes, i am aware, that the apo could not be used in the way an FC can be used offensively. That is good so.
He would need to move with the army and fight with the bulk, till melee kicks off, then he can go in.
Apo will not go in first, but second; With ASM jump or Tacs and shotgun-scouts close-range, supported by droppods.
APA would then allow him to regen energy and play his support, while pushing on. Or Sanguine to be annoying and disturb the backline.

PS: scouts regen bonus only works out of combat, so another point to NOT play apo melee.

You said the Apo will not go in first but second after ASM. I Specifically said in my last post you CANNOT and NEVER try to justify the implementation of a war gear so long as it can only be use effectively with a specific unit purchase. That makes the design horrible to the point of useless. You want him to be better at aggressive pushes? Get rites. Vs a low hp high model count army? Get vials.

Besides I will always get bolter plus AoA and the Jump Pack if it was in the game. You will never take the Apo down. I negate the movement speed slow from using advanced healing via jumping t around to re position and i can cover my army as they fall back a bit with the Apo's bolter.

APA is good when Apo is used as a reactive hero. He should never be trying to get into melee at all period in t2 or after unless you know he can get there and stay there. In t2, Apo cannot do that at all. Period. I mentioned this, he would have to wait until the fight was nearing its end before he could go in to be safe. With the Jump Pack same issue but now you can get one or two more smacks in by jumping him in.

I am considering makes this small made now being the only change would be Apo having his Jump Pack. Just so you can finally see it will not work. Theoretically its bad. Practically it will not work how you envisioned this wargear. I guarantee you that because i will never get melee Apo unless i need him to smack other melee heroes for some reason.

I dont want him dying. So Storm bolter is all i would get with Jump Pack. I still can disrupt. I can still tie thing up in melee. But know i can do so with less risk than a melee jumping Apo. The Jump Pack doesn't remove risk of him dying when trying to get into melee. It makes him more of a target, and he will i promise you with all my experience playing the game and having a mod where i do crazy shit like this to test it out. One example is limiting Webway gates to 3 but allowing them to re position at the cost of more red. But a Jump Pack Apo will not work in this mod. It has zero place here. Rites and vials do what the Jump Pack will do but better for a melee Apo. Because it reward aggressively play alot better than a Jump Pack. You get them in t1 so you get the benefits of the good usage earlier and it actually helps in more match up then a Jumping melee fragile Apo jumping after ASM in t2 whom also get rekt but t2 stuff.

I need you to tell me this wargear is good with not only ASM. Because if you mention them again next post without good justification I will not answer back.

Do not justify the wargear because of one squad in the SM roster. It has to be able to allow the Apo to operate normally without the ASM. I know about that ONE build you have mentioned at already . Give me at least 2 more builds with vs a Legitimate build from some other race. And then we can have a real discussion.

Because i really feel like you have no intention of listening to anyone here. In fact here is a small snip it. Ill quote myself.

"APA is power melee every swing at level one is 130 damage He want to kill MoT CSM, Halvoc, Noise Marines..." Then i moved on the the affects the APA has on the BC and Letters due to the weapons energy grain that you already have mentioned and acknowledged. You told me it does 100 damage. I know.

I need you to REALLY think about your next post. You need to think about units of other races, legitimate uses for the wargear and think as a player if a Jump Pack would really solve the issue you are facing with a melee apo in t2 or would a better solution be found in a different wargear or other unit. I mean really think about it. Take one day please maybe even two. Because i want a good constructive post. not something small like you ones before.

This is what i want from you. I mentioned it already but i want to say it better since i was maybe a bit harsh earlier.

1: I want why you would get the Jump Pack over other wargear options and WHY they fall short. You would get the Jump Pack verse what because of WHY.

2:Then give me 2 comprehensive builds you believe can only work if Apo has a Jump Pack. Include costs. Include the strategy of the build. Include tactical flexibility (required due to the SM race being naturally flexible) of the build (not the flexibility of only the Apo we understand that already)
3: Include what the build would excel at and what it would struggle against and how the jumping melee Apo would help offset the disadvantage your build has vs the enemies army.

I want some theories to really put my head around and i am open to be proven wrong. I have been before on this forum. I can still be swayed.

Give me that please. Not some one dimensional post as to why Jump Pack is needed. I want a good juicy, think and long post on a Jump Pack Apo. Please be constructive. The Essay is due whenever.

p.s i forgot the scout thing was changed. I believe i was the one who complained about it the most. Since a friend i used to play with always went Apo with SC, and Vials, two scouts and 2 tacs then libby (i told him to cause it helps his amazing scout play). (idk what he does now though)

I shall fo so.
Apologies for the poweraxe, I didn t read it enough.

NoSkill, you have been a prolific poster on DOWIII forums no doubt starting many such similar discussions about balance there but there are a few things you must realize are different here and change your behaviour.

DOWIII was a game being developed by Relic, you were their client and as such had the right to throw out as many half-baked ideas as you wanted and the Community Managers had to indulge you as long as you weren't rude or toxic.
However, the consequence of being able to say a lot is that the devs don't bother to listen. The purpose of official forums ends up being to contain players all yelling to be heard and Community Managers are just there to put out fires instead of conveying feedback to the devs.

Elite mod is a volunteer project, you are not a customer here and you are owed nothing. The team members all spend their personal time in developing this mod and so far they have been exceedingly tolerant in explaining why they don't want you wasting any more of their time with your unending suggestions when they could have just banned you and been done with it.
You must understand what an absolute privilege it is to be able to speak directly to the developers of a game you are playing and at the same time, you must understand that you have the responsibility to make yourself respectable to these people if you want to be listened to.

Theorycrafting holds no weight here. The community is small and word gets around quickly of who does and who does not have any idea of what they are talking about when it comes to balance.

Alright I think we've had enough honesty for this thread. Let's keep the discussion on the apo. On the plus side the discussion has been much more logical and fruitful.

@oLev

Technically I was posting more about new content ideas, as it was the more pressing issue.
This is an free forum with no conditions of joining.
So I can post, what I want regarding the game. Yet ppl don t have to listen nor answer, so stupid threads will die off, as it happenend with my scout thread.
And I´m no tard, that keeps his thread up by constantly posting, which then would need moderator action.

My method is try and error, which is the most efficient method to learn things in most cases; That I may annoy ppl is natural.
I want to be respected for usefulness first (beeing nice comes after that), as it benefits the matter most.
And when I look at my earlier threads I can say;
I´m improving......

So pls don t try again to tell me that and keep to the OP !

As Black relic demanded, I'm currently writing an detailed response;)

Nono, even if you switch to IME, you only get 30 energy in 20 seconds. You only have max 1,5 e/s.
So you would have to wait 40 seconds till you get to 60 for heal or jump. So not that abusable, I´d say. And then there would be the 55 power cost.

Regardless;

I think, an jumppack works, because it allows an Apothecary with melee weapons to strike the enemy where his arms come best to bear (Set-ups, weak melee squads or HI), effectively diminishing the need for other units to carry the apo and allowing the apo to make better use of his support, because units get not damaged/pressured as much in the first place and he could theoretically regain energy fastest in melee with the axe.

Right now, I always use SC-stims-rites when playing an offensive apo; rites I only use, because it is the best allrounder of the bunch, with vials doing not enough dmg against low model units and IME simply offers too much energy.
SC, because Apo needs the survivability.
Pack I would choose, because I could deliver apo into melee nearly unharmed or get him outfast while making use of his axe, beeing able to support ASM with abilities or by shutting down ranged.

MU: Chaos vs SM

Build: Tac-ASM-2x scouts/shotguns/seargent into razorback and whirlwind/pod/sterns ; Apo with pack/stims/APA

Use;
Apo as anti-hero with axe or attack on HI, if bogged down or things need tie-up, he can jump. Stims on himself, if needed, increasing dmg to nearly 140 ( 182 vs HI) and dmg resistance aswell as suppression break from potential doomblast or havoc.

Shot guns would need to do the heavy lifting in T1 in dealing dmg, while ASM draw fire and initiate. Apo´s role in T1 is to hang back a bit and maximise his heals and tie up ranged squads. Tacs serve as multitool, can be set on ranged tics or hold in melee long enough for support to arrive.
In T2 he would then get his kit; capable of hunting MoT CSM/Set-ups/heretics/draining energy from demons and putting stims on whichever unit needs it.

In T3 then support the termies and Vanguard/Sternguard with stims or get them free with disruption from jump.


That would work best against an melee heavy CL or PC. A bit problematic with noise marines+ cacophony or PC with double CSM and ranged tics + noise marines.
Scouts would KB any melee unit and burst it down. ASM initiate or wait to disrupt units to make them free. Apo ties up PC, set-ups. Tacs support Apo or scouts in focusing things down. Bsaically Apo and Asm are used as shields for scouts and SM to strike.
T2 then Razorback to improved field support with smokes against MoT marines, Plague marines, doombolts etc. Apo with pack and APA could go hunting, if CL doesn t have Mantle of hate (annoying thing), or drain energy of sourcerer and demons. Also emergency tie-up´s. Putting stims on sterns or himself will help against dmg of MoT CSM or launcher tics aswell as annoying suppression of melee tics.
Whirlwind will bring the chaos troops into disarray to be focused down or cover retreat. Apo could also drain energy on Dreads upgraded.
Dreadnaughts would be dealt with by tacs launcher and Plaguemarines put down by the piercing dps of scouts/tacs +disruption.
Demons would suffer the same fate, while possibly beeing drained by Apo.
T3 against tanks, Termies can get launcher +sternguards/ASM bombs; Chaos termies would be shot down or taken on by vanguards. Vanguards with stims and Angels of death would deal enough dmg to termies to force them off.
If phobos, then Predator annihilator or Termies with launcher + stims; same with GUO.

Depending on the situation and ressources, liberal usage of Angels of Death, preferebly when advancing.



MU: Orks vs SM

Build; scouts with shotguns, 2x tacs with flamers/seargents, devastators into dreadnaught /plasmadev, then Termies or tanks

vs Waaghboss, 2x shootas and sluggas fully+ painboy, tankbustas and deffdread and wartrukk into nobz.
vs Mek, 2x shootas + sluggas fully, lootas, deffdread, stickbommaz and tankbustas into nobz or tanks/battlewaggon
vs Commando Nob, 2x shootas 2x sluggas fully, 2x tankbustas and wartukk into flashgitz or kommandos.

Apo; SC in T1, then pack and stims.

scouts as anti-melee and dmg dealers with tacs and apo trying to tie up supported by devs in T1. Flamers work well against orkz, coz they have relatively low health and can supplement a powerbash.
In T2, pack would allow apo to get on shootas or tankbustas/stickbommaz and tie them up or duel the pain-/weirdboy and draining their energy in the worst cast. Meanwhile Assault Dread would decimate sluggas and waaghboss and plasma dev lend support, effectively overpowering the orcs with the apo disturbing the backline and facilitating a fast advance of the tacs into close range or melee.
Apo can hunt weirdboy/dok or mek, combo with assasins knife prolly not tho.
Can drain energy from weirdboy/dok or warboss or combat flash gitz and peel a bit extra dmg on nobs.

Sluggas would be focused down by tacs an eat KB from scouts, if needed. Waaghboss will get kited, Kommando/Mek/Dok tied up, same with Shootas.
Devastators for better control, Advanced targeting, if extra dmg is needed. Lascannon only, if orcs "spam" vehicles.
Dreadnaught as anti-slugga/Waaghboss/deff-dread, plasma devs to constantly pressure orcs.
That would rely on some good control work tho.

Nobs in T3 would need to be dragged down by massed fire and controll, apo jump disruption would help here and power melee can be nice.
Flash Gitz blob would need to be charged and tied up with sluggas focused down, jumpdisruption would help here.
Battlewaggon/tank then with lascannon supported by stims or heal in case of Zzap or explosive shot.


Against Eldar apo is really risky, against warlock it is suicide. After getting raped, I think stormbolter is the best option here, except maybe against farseer (tho doombringer is nearly as big as an fuck you as merchiless blade).

So an jumppack would amplyfy the effectiveness of the bolter. Bolter has high dmg and stun ability, which denies the eldar momentum and plays on their low health.

SM vs Eldar

Build 1-1-1 with shotgun-scouts into assault cannon dread and/or Whirlwind and sternguards ; then termies with flamer.
Apo with purity armor and stormbolter, then jumppack. MAAAAAYBEEE the SC.

vs warlock with merciless

farseer with doombringer

WSE with advanced targeting

Initial engagement is lost anyway vs warlock. Vs Farseer prolly doable, put all dakka on banshees, then DA´s. Vs WSE it would only be slightly better then Warlock.
If Eldar goes heavy ranged with 2x platforms and or rangers, Apo goes Bolter and ASM, then Devs. Scouts with shotguns are mandatory to deal with shees and can flank and look for rangers.
healing Aura will help a bit at least.
If Eldar goes shooty with 3x DA´s, Apo could go melee, tho bolter would still be better to pick of models.
In T2 Apo would support ASM or Tacs to stay alive or deal more dmg, aswell as emergency melee to tie disrupt things and tie them up for Sterns/dread to shoot it or other support to arrive.
If Wraithlord, then lascannon + devs should be able to deal with it. If Falcon, same. If Reapers, then press the attack; with WW disruption and ASM attack or dread to soak up fire. Apo in the Vanguard on ranged or set-up units or behind the main army. With SC he could try to soak up a bit of fire, but only a bit.
Stims on Vanguards , if light infantry is near.
If fire dragons, then they can be melee´ed, same with Wraith Guards. Use angels of death and on the Initiation unit stims to boost dmg resistance to 65 %, then Jump apo in on the HI. Warlock needs to be focused the fuck down tho.

In T3 Termies with flamer, if seer council, with prism cyclon missle launcher, same with avatar. Apo would support with stims and heals.
With that, each missle would have 91 dmg needing only 6 to hit an prism. If all 14 hit the avatar, 1274 dmg not counting potential buffs by dread or other teammates.
Vs seer council with flamer, the ground can be ignited to drop them really fast, even more with stims ( 39 dmg for 30 seconds!)
With healing Aura, their regen will do to 7,5 hp/sec; Enough to tank even without Apothecarion armor.

Btw, do flame dmg more dmg the closer u get ?

Sorry it toke awhile to respond. I wanted to wait until I had a day off to read and respond.

Ok lets get into it.
(p.s. Part 1 of the post. Could make it one post. Too big I guess)

TE | NoSkill wrote:Nono, even if you switch to IME, you only get 30 energy in 20 seconds. You only have max 1,5 e/s.
So you would have to wait 40 seconds till you get to 60 for heal or jump. So not that abusable, I´d say. And then there would be the 55 power cost.

Ok so I looked in the actual modding files. IME increases energy regen by 1.5 despite the tooltip. So its either wrong the tool tip or the wargear is giving too much energy regen. per second. I then looked at the energy regen of heroes. Each Hero regens one energy per second. So Base Apo gains 60 energy per minute. IME, at this moment, increases that by 90 energy per minute for a grand total of 150 energy per minute. And even if it does get lowered to 1 energy per second the energy regen at level 1 is still 120 per minute. That is ALOT! Making it spam able completely. because in 40 seconds you gain 80 energy at 2 energy per second. Since atm it is 2.5 with IME at level one you get 100 energy in 40 seconds. Making switching between IME and Jump spammable because you will have a jump and a heal as well as another jump every single engagement if the player stays on top of it.

I focus on each part separately now.

TE | NoSkill wrote:I think, an jumppack works, because it allows an Apothecary with melee weapons to strike the enemy where his arms come best to bear (Set-ups, weak melee squads or HI)

Ok So you said you get this wargear in t2. In t2 one of the first few purchases will always be a t2 melee squad. So there are no weak melee squads in t2. Onnly if they are back capping units and if you APO is always attacking them you are losing the game but anyways! If they have them or a squad leader that dramatically increases their survivability and damage (shee's exarch, slugga nob, Chaos nearly anything) you don't want you APO in melee. He will not stand up to any of it. Even if ASM follow him. Why? Because even ASM get smashed by t2 melee. You will not want the Jump Pack at all. You will want to keep the ASM alive and Rites does that better than a jump pack. They are better at hitting a set up team and getting out in t2 with APO with Rites. If you jump in with ASM and then APO, You will lose that fight 100% of the time. Because you are either wasting heal on APO and then retreating him, on using it on ASM while the APO is in your enemies backline unsupported. As a support healing commander that is the last place you want him period. He is designed to sit back and make sure bleed is kept to a minimum while trying to maximize damage output of his army. IF he does the damage or not you shouldn't care if you win the engagement.

Long story short Jumping APO on set up is going to be almost always a death sentence. The only way ASM jumping followed by APO works if with Angles activated. And you cannot justify a wargear on one global. (Do not mention phase shift, the wargear was meant to nullify a person's army so you have less army to deal with/stop caps, not only to set up attacks on a blobed enemy unit). APA always has worked well on HI, but as a counter initiation tool. Again APO does not want to be focused down by range OR by melee squads. A Jump Pack with melee aggressiveness does just that. You mentioned he get in Melee without getting shot at. But that does not stop him from getting focused by both ranged AND melee after he lands. Please don't say he wont be initiating because it still wont matter.

TE | NoSkill wrote: effectively diminishing the need for other units to carry the apo and allowing the apo to make better use of his support, because units get not damaged/pressured as much in the first place and he could theoretically regain energy fastest in melee with the axe.

The Apo cannot make better use of his support capabilities because there is no army around him to support!!! If I am wrong tell me how so? Do not mention ASM though because that is a given.

He does not have a lot of HP and he is commander armor, he takes more damage from piercing damage than units with Heavy Infantry Armor. So yes his army will not get damaged as much because they will be killing the APO. Once he goes down you wont be supporting your army at all.

Your statement about energy regen being best with APA is wrong though. Why? APA is unreliable energy regen. because it only kicks in if he is hitting something. If you get only 6 hits with the AXE you regen. 60 energy. yes that is a lot. But you have to keep in mind that you still have to use energy to jump and to heal if you can. If you are not hitting anything or if he is too weak to do so that you are not getting any regen. hence unreliable since you have to fulfill an action to tigger the effect. In simple terms, if it doesn't happen all the time and constantly (I mean every second) it is not reliable. IME is reliable energy regen. because no matter what you do, if you are fighting, not fighting, retreating or whatever, with the exception of being downed, you are gaining that energy regen. There is no requirement. That is reliable.

Lets say the APO gets 6 hits before having to retreat. and takes 60 seconds to get back on the field. At level one the energy he gained in the 60 seconds is 120. However he used his heal once and jumped spending 80 energy. SO he has a surplus of 40 energy from that 60 seconds.

But with IME he didn't have to hit anything at all to gain his energy regen. is the higher at 150 (if its bugged) the same at 120. Plus since IME is a accessory he didn't have to risk him self in melee or get focused so he was able to stay in the fight for longer. Meaning more heals with his passive aura and if it was a long fight, get another heal off. 2 heals is 120 energy. He has 30 more energy from IME and has helped the engagement (imo) more because he actually supported his army without risking himself being taken down.

The other option is to forgo the Pack and get both IME and the APA. With the armor (I forgot the name) that lowers the CD of heals could be devastating because he will ALWAYS have a heal, just use the APA APO as a counter initiation tool with the shotgun scout if you have them.

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Right now, I always use SC-stims-rites when playing an offensive apo; rites I only use, because it is the best allrounder of the bunch, with vials doing not enough dmg against low model units and IME simply offers too much energy.
SC, because Apo needs the survivability.
Pack I would choose, because I could deliver apo into melee nearly unharmed or get him outfast while making use of his axe, beeing able to support ASM with abilities or by shutting down ranged.

Ok so Vials are not meant to be against low model HP squads. Rites is the other option. In fact I am positive I mentioned that in my last post. IME giving too much energy?? That's the first time an APO complained about that to me tbh. Never heard that before. Usually "I don't have enough."

Ok so SC is to make him more tankish in t1. The weapon changes drastically in t2 since its not a good damage type and the APO shouldn't be in melee in t2 unless he HAS to be. He can still be used as counter initiation and then a harasser if the SM wins the beginning of the engagement.

Stims are best used on TACs since its almost like a pocket TSNKF with APO had rites and used on ASM. On Sternguard vets it is down right dirty I'm sure. too since their DoT form Hellfire rounds gets increased too. Similar to how Sacred Standerd FC with Battle Cry makes them insane!

Ok I kinda about had enough of ASM talk here. Don't only justify a wargear implementation with ASM combo. Because its not good enough if it can only work effectively with ASM. I said this. Apo will get smashed in t2 if he goes into melee EVEN if he goes in unharmed. There are melee squads. Heavy hitting range units, melee walkers etc. He will not live. He will die or retreat almost every time without supporting his army. He can shot down some ranged. He can target Heroes. He can only target those units so long as there is no support around them. Because again even if ASM follow him, if there is support. They will lose vs t2 melee and the dakaa from other places and a can assure you as a player I will be focusing the APO the MOMENT he goes in after the ASM.

TE | NoSkill wrote:

MU: Chaos vs SM

Build: Tac-ASM-2x scouts/shotguns/seargent into razorback and whirlwind/pod/sterns ; Apo with pack/stims/APA

I wanted all your builds to be without the ASM but fine ill indulge this.

imo if you are not getting shotguns before ASM you risk a power bash. Big time. You need to understand that APO will lose first engagement without shotguns. SC is an option though, APO with it is actually a nightmare since Chaos has no ways to really focus him down fast in t1 with range when the APO is played right. Throw rites on the that you nearly negate EVERYTHING chaos can do t1. Raptors are no help due to Rites. CSM have a hard time damaging the APO while being shot at. If APO get into melee you lost the fight is you hero or Heretics are forced off. Since there is no support for your army or no control or harass on the APO's army. Things change in t2 though so you HAVE to get your damage done and do ALOT of it.

Razorback is an alright choice. Can be good. Just be careful vs sorc though. One get Warp/sigil and BAM you lost the razorback. CL worship PMs will kill it. Good choice vs plague champ.

Whirlwind? Same issue as razorback.

Vanguard?? Ok I guess, but only if they have 2 set ups and not a lot of counter initiation.

TE | NoSkill wrote:

Use;
Apo as anti-hero with axe or attack on HI, if bogged down or things need tie-up, he can jump. Stims on himself, if needed, increasing dmg to nearly 140 ( 182 vs HI) and dmg resistance aswell as suppression break from potential doomblast or havoc.

Ok, no Apo will not be ANti-hero in t2 vs any of the Chaos Hero. I BEG YOU to remember the abilities of other heroes and do not count on the incompetence of your enemy. Sorc can Chain of Torment, PC want you to fight him, the Chaos Lord and Many different ways to hurt the APO and delete him. Keep in mind the damage resistance is only 15%. That's is nearly nothing. Its so low you hardly tell the difference.

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Shot guns would need to do the heavy lifting in T1 in dealing dmg, while ASM draw fire and initiate. Apo´s role in T1 is to hang back a bit and maximise his heals and tie up ranged squads. Tacs serve as multitool, can be set on ranged tics or hold in melee long enough for support to arrive.
In T2 he would then get his kit; capable of hunting MoT CSM/Set-ups/heretics/draining energy from demons and putting stims on whichever unit needs it.

In T3 then support the termies and Vanguard/Sternguard with stims or get them free with disruption from jump.

Shotguns do heavy lifting in almost every match up. Except IG of course. ASM will always be the focus in t1. But you have to have Rites to maximize the potential of ASM. You can stop the damage output of counter initiation AC heretic and more. You want Tacs to Focus the Teretics or the Heroes. The CSM will have to wait but you can quickly change targets to the CSM since one squad of heretics will melt fast after the damage they take from a Rites heal. You do not want Tac being in melee but if you are starting the fight they shouldn't be in melee anyway. If they have Raptors then imo you are winning.

He can hit daemons without a Pack and its better too since most of the time daemons that APO can hit safely right now are not being supported by worship. He can still chase MoT without the Pack unless they focus him and if they dot that's actually a plus since your plasma Tacs is doing damage is doing to work with Stims on them which is a better outcome.

TE | NoSkill wrote:That would work best against an melee heavy CL or PC. A bit problematic with noise marines+ cacophony or PC with double CSM and ranged tics + noise marines.
Scouts would KB any melee unit and burst it down. ASM initiate or wait to disrupt units to make them free. Apo ties up PC, set-ups. Tacs support Apo or scouts in focusing things down. Bsaically Apo and Asm are used as shields for scouts and SM to strike.
T2 then Razorback to improved field support with smokes against MoT marines, Plague marines, doombolts etc. Apo with pack and APA could go hunting, if CL doesn t have Mantle of hate (annoying thing), or drain energy of sourcerer and demons. Also emergency tie-up´s. Putting stims on sterns or himself will help against dmg of MoT CSM or launcher tics aswell as annoying suppression of melee tics.
Whirlwind will bring the chaos troops into disarray to be focused down or cover retreat. Apo could also drain energy on Dreads upgraded.
Dreadnaughts would be dealt with by tacs launcher and Plaguemarines put down by the piercing dps of scouts/tacs +disruption.
Demons would suffer the same fate, while possibly beeing drained by Apo.
T3 against tanks, Termies can get launcher +sternguards/ASM bombs; Chaos termies would be shot down or taken on by vanguards. Vanguards with stims and Angels of death would deal enough dmg to termies to force them off.
If phobos, then Predator annihilator or Termies with launcher + stims; same with GUO.

Depending on the situation and ressources, liberal usage of Angels of Death, preferebly when advancing.

CL will ALWAYS get armor of Hate (or should) vs APO. Locks him down if he tries to get close and keeps him from using heal making ASM die from an overzealous jump. PC melee can Stun you bro. Plus he will kill you. He can 1v1 an FC with power fist dude, especially with his immune to KB armor. ASM are meant to soak up damage t1. That's is why heal works well on them.

APO with pack and APA should not go hunting. If a fight start and he is not there you are most likely going to lose that fight with all the resources you put in the APO.

Stims are best used on Sterns. Good for putting that in. Turns Kraken Rounds from doing 16 dps to nearly 19 on HI. And on 4 models that's pretty insane with MoT do ~22dps to HI. Plus if they target the Steurn the damage resistance nearly negates the increased damage they will take from inferno damage.

Already mentioned my thought on whirlwind. Helps vs Shrine play but probably not a great pick 1v1.

If you get to t3 as APO you should be ina good spot imo. Because you have levels on APO (hopefully) and levels on your units. You should be winning. Terminators are good but imo not great vs chaos unless you have Armor of the Apothocarion. The Launcher could be nice but I think staying t2 is you best bet. An if you have the Armor of A then you want a stormbolter and IME. Not an Axe and Pack.

If there is a phobos then yea terminators with launcher but you will need more to deal with that.