Dawn of War Codex

saltychipmunk wrote:spotters are a counter to setup units in the same way you can say catachans are a counter to setup units. in that if you force off said set up unit in the time it takes for it to set back up or get its range back then yeah sure spotters are a counter.

I would say that spotters are much better counter for set up teams then jump troops. Someone already explained itd - there is almost no risk for them. What's more, mortar shell splits set up team pretty far they previous position so they can be easly tiedup by commander or simply to be stopmed by sentinel. Then you also have smoke shell. What is more, you have pretty much blob counter in T1.

I still dont understand why there is so much talking about this? Are maps are some wierd corridors without other paths then just forward? Really, flanking, outshooting with LG granade launchers, infiltrated INQ or flared by LC, IG can deal with set ups.

Dark Riku wrote:Why does everyone seem to ignore: shell behind setupteam --> kb into your ranged blob --> profit.

We ignore it because it only work when they are out in the open which is very rarely because people tend to put their setup teams behind cover. If they stand behind cover and you do that - the KB from spotters more often than not doesn't push them over the cover they were behind, just into it. Works the same with Manticores which is why the first shot I usually put a bit behind the setup team (to push them all into the cover line) and then right on top of cover to hit the bunched up models.

Sturnn wrote:

saltychipmunk wrote:spotters are a counter to setup units in the same way you can say catachans are a counter to setup units. in that if you force off said set up unit in the time it takes for it to set back up or get its range back then yeah sure spotters are a counter.

I would say that spotters are much better counter for set up teams then jump troops. Someone already explained itd - there is almost no risk for them. What's more, mortar shell splits set up team pretty far they previous position so they can be easly tiedup by commander or simply to be stopmed by sentinel. Then you also have smoke shell. What is more, you have pretty much blob counter in T1.

I still dont understand why there is so much talking about this? Are maps are some wierd corridors without other paths then just forward? Really, flanking, outshooting with LG granade launchers, infiltrated INQ or flared by LC, IG can deal with set ups.

the critical point i was making is what you need to make each work or not work.

in the case of jump units. the player with the setup team needs to field extra units to deal with the jump unit.
in the case of spotters. the guard player has to bring extra units to neutralize the setup while it is distracted. otherwise the setup just sets back up.

that is how i view hard vs soft counter. is the unit able to standalone counter something else . if yes hard-counter. if no soft counter. and spotters cant really accomplish anything on their own. hence soft-counter. that is in no way saying that their soft counter is bad, being a soft counter does not necessarily suggest weakness.

^what he said. Spotters are far from useless. They just do need some very slight adjustments imho.

saltychipmunk wrote:

Sturnn wrote:

saltychipmunk wrote:spotters are a counter to setup units in the same way you can say catachans are a counter to setup units. in that if you force off said set up unit in the time it takes for it to set back up or get its range back then yeah sure spotters are a counter.

I would say that spotters are much better counter for set up teams then jump troops. Someone already explained itd - there is almost no risk for them. What's more, mortar shell splits set up team pretty far they previous position so they can be easly tiedup by commander or simply to be stopmed by sentinel. Then you also have smoke shell. What is more, you have pretty much blob counter in T1.

I still dont understand why there is so much talking about this? Are maps are some wierd corridors without other paths then just forward? Really, flanking, outshooting with LG granade launchers, infiltrated INQ or flared by LC, IG can deal with set ups.

the critical point i was making is what you need to make each work or not work.

in the case of jump units. the player with the setup team needs to field extra units to deal with the jump unit.
in the case of spotters. the guard player has to bring extra units to neutralize the setup while it is distracted. otherwise the setup just sets back up.

that is how i view hard vs soft counter. is the unit able to standalone counter something else . if yes hard-counter. if no soft counter. and spotters cant really accomplish anything on their own. hence soft-counter. that is in no way saying that their soft counter is bad, being a soft counter does not necessarily suggest weakness.

It fits well with the army style of IG. Most of the units don't hard counter anything, and aren't super good individually. They all have to support each other to be any good. Same with the artillery spotters.

ST with meltas counters vehicles pretty hard

Shame that even flamers outrange them

Sorcerer wrote:Shame that even flamers outrange them

Oh lord, I see another discussion where leads no solution soon enough.

As far as I know Kasrkin have being underperforming and they have tried to solve this by giving them more melee and a new ability to run, I would like to say that maybe Kasrkin are like terminators for the IG, not in the tank like aspect but in the meaning they have for the troops around them, after all Kasrkin are heroes and hardened veterarns son it might seem reasonable for them to have an aura that improves nearby IG infantry.

LooniestRumble wrote:As far as I know Kasrkin have being underperforming and they have tried to solve this by giving them more melee and a new ability to run, I would like to say that maybe Kasrkin are like terminators for the IG, not in the tank like aspect but in the meaning they have for the troops around them, after all Kasrkin are heroes and hardened veterarns son it might seem reasonable for them to have an aura that improves nearby IG infantry.

when it comes to super infantry units in t3 they generally fall into one of three categories.

1 high stat units that are beef cakes
2 high stat units that are glass cannons
3 units average stats but very very exotic abilities to compensate.

At this point i think what they are trying to make kasrkins is number 3. but it just isnt quite working. they have a ton of abilities but none of them have that certain t3 special that a unit like that should have. the perks cale and company keep giving them are too subtle and spread out .

maybe if they remove some of the current perks and buff some of the others they would be a more interesting unit.

saltychipmunk wrote:

LooniestRumble wrote:As far as I know Kasrkin have being underperforming and they have tried to solve this by giving them more melee and a new ability to run, I would like to say that maybe Kasrkin are like terminators for the IG, not in the tank like aspect but in the meaning they have for the troops around them, after all Kasrkin are heroes and hardened veterarns son it might seem reasonable for them to have an aura that improves nearby IG infantry.

when it comes to super infantry units in t3 they generally fall into one of three categories.

1 high stat units that are beef cakes
2 high stat units that are glass cannons
3 units average stats but very very exotic abilities to compensate.

At this point i think what they are trying to make kasrkins is number 3. but it just isnt quite working. they have a ton of abilities but none of them have that certain t3 special that a unit like that should have. the perks cale and company keep giving them are too subtle and spread out .

maybe if they remove some of the current perks and buff some of the others they would be a more interesting unit.

May be replaced him on Elisian? Elite jump infantry on t3, what could be more interesting for the IG army?



The only problem is that they do not jump on WH lore, but only landing.

They shouldn't be replaced. Their use as T3 infantry is there, or at least the intention. Their use just shouldn't conflict with other uses that come from the leman russ or the power-free infiltrating AK stormtroopers. Maybe just replace their frag and krak grenade abilities and change it to work as the stikkbommaz, with the krak working as vehicle-only stun in the same manner? Trading damage for longer-ranged disruption and vehicle stun, balanced as necessary, while still keeping their ranged damage output and weapon upgrades. They are grenadiers, after all.

I normally don't care much to talk, but i cannot stand the unfair so i will break my silence here.
I think paying 500 red for a nuke which have different performance depend on faction is a bit stupid. so I propose to readjust the cost of the nukes as i think it is based on the performance
For eldar, increase the cost of the elritch storm by 15% to 575. Why: It deal lot of damages and disable vehicle very strong nuke strong wiping potential easier to use than some nuke (Randomly miss or randomly kill so no need to bitching about the random thing here).
For ork, increase the cost of "rock" by 10% to 550, Why: deal massive damages lot of wiping potential and also easier to use.
For nid, increase the cost of Tyranoformation by 5% to 525. Why: vey hard to avoid the mid one and destroy building is a big offer good at break the line
For chaos may be increase by 5% or keep the old price.
For SM, decrease the cost of OB by 10% to 450. Why: a harder to use nuke compare to eldar ork and nid. low wiping potential.
Again this is what i think how nukes should be readjust. spamming eldritch and spamming Ob never be the same but the cost is no more, no less is just so stupid. and interm of easy to use i mean one click way from turning thegame, unlike SM and IG 3 or 4 clicks and then the damage dealed is not as high as expected.

_sanada_ wrote:I normally don't care much to talk, but i cannot stand the unfair so i will break my silence here.
I think paying 500 red for a nuke which have different performance depend on faction is a bit stupid. so I propose to readjust the cost of the nukes as i think it is based on the performance
For eldar, increase the cost of the elritch storm by 15% to 575. Why: It deal lot of damages and disable vehicle very strong nuke strong wiping potential easier to use than some nuke (Randomly miss or randomly kill so no need to bitching about the random thing here).
For ork, increase the cost of "rock" by 10% to 550, Why: deal massive damages lot of wiping potential and also easier to use.
For nid, increase the cost of Tyranoformation by 5% to 525. Why: vey hard to avoid the mid one and destroy building is a big offer good at break the line
For chaos may be increase by 5% or keep the old price.
For SM, decrease the cost of OB by 10% to 450. Why: a harder to use nuke compare to eldar ork and nid. low wiping potential.
Again this is what i think how nukes should be readjust. spamming eldritch and spamming Ob never be the same but the cost is no more, no less is just so stupid. and interm of easy to use i mean one click way from turning thegame, unlike SM and IG 3 or 4 clicks and then the damage dealed is not as high as expected.

Funny how the Tyrannoformation does deserve an increase yet the Orbital Bombardement does not. They are both meant to setup attacks. The Tyrannoformation has low wiping potential and is, contrary to what you say, easy to dodge because you know exactly where it will hit. The Orbital Bombardement is random because you don't know where your enemy put the beam locations to. It also does quite substantial damage.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Funny how the Tyrannoformation does deserve an increase yet the Orbital Bombardement does not. They are both meant to setup attacks. The Tyrannoformation has low wiping potential and is, contrary to what you say, easy to dodge because you know exactly where it will hit. The Orbital Bombardement is random because you don't know where your enemy put the beam locations to. It also does quite substantial damage.

I agree, the tyranofomation doesn't have the wiping potential like the rock or storm i didn't say it high ayway. And yes it is true, you well know where it hit. But i find i still have more time and easier to dodge when the beam indicator (not the OB mark hope you know what i mean) appear than the tyrannoformaion mark. And i believe that OB is still the hardest nukes to use so far or atleast harder than tyranofomation. Anyway, atleast change the storm and the rock please those two are just too good to be same cost as other.

Since this is sitting all the way up here, it's probably worth noting that the HT can still charge use whatever the ability is from rending talons and then keep charging.

Could probably be adjusted so that he actually stops considering the type of commander that he is.

_sanada_ wrote:I normally don't care much to talk, but i cannot stand the unfair so i will break my silence here.
I think paying 500 red for a nuke which have different performance depend on faction is a bit stupid. so I propose to readjust the cost of the nukes as i think it is based on the performance
For eldar, increase the cost of the elritch storm by 15% to 575. Why: It deal lot of damages and disable vehicle very strong nuke strong wiping potential easier to use than some nuke (Randomly miss or randomly kill so no need to bitching about the random thing here).
For ork, increase the cost of "rock" by 10% to 550, Why: deal massive damages lot of wiping potential and also easier to use.
For nid, increase the cost of Tyranoformation by 5% to 525. Why: vey hard to avoid the mid one and destroy building is a big offer good at break the line
For chaos may be increase by 5% or keep the old price.
For SM, decrease the cost of OB by 10% to 450. Why: a harder to use nuke compare to eldar ork and nid. low wiping potential.
Again this is what i think how nukes should be readjust. spamming eldritch and spamming Ob never be the same but the cost is no more, no less is just so stupid. and interm of easy to use i mean one click way from turning thegame, unlike SM and IG 3 or 4 clicks and then the damage dealed is not as high as expected.

The different nukes have different performance because serve to different purporses more than "click here and obliterate the enemy army"

Appart from the Tyranoformation, which could have a bit rework with more emphasis in a buff role more than a damage one, rest of nukes are most OK