Dawn of War Codex

being bland is a down side on of it self.
I share the sentiment that this would be a non issue if asm performed like they do in vanilla vs the races they should be good against (nids and orks)


more often I have been forced into 2 pillar builds out of sheer necessity.

slightly off topic , why are devs 12 pop... actually way are most set ups 12 pop? when eldar is 9?

not complaining just curious.

Because again, eldar are really dependent on shuriken play OR if you don't buy that because in retail their suppression teams couldn't upgrade to AV so it forced a new squad purchase.

I still think the former justifies their shuriken being at 9 pop though personally.

their suppression teams couldn't upgrade to AV so it forced a new squad purchase.

It's probably a leftover of this.

I personally think devs could use a bit of a health buff. they pretty much have the same amount of health as scouts, and in some ways that makes it worse because they're slow as heck and get absolutely raped by anything that does more damage to HI.

it shouldn't be on par with noise marines or purggies, seeing as those are close range weapon support teams, but something in the middle would be nice.

I think if you buy the Vengeance Rounds for devs then there should be no cooldown to use that ability. I think you should be able to toggle the Vengeance Rounds on and off with no time limit being held on how long that squad can use Vengeance Rounds. BUT I do think when you toggle Vengeance Rounds off then it should take about 10 seconds to change back to suppression rounds. This way devs can be somewhat comparable to havoks in the upgrade department. This will also allow devs to be a lot more useful against super heavy infantry instead of just having to change to las guns. Just a thought...

I wouldnt mind an option for them to get a las cannon even after they get veng rounds tbh

And here I am with a really nice and lovely idea. Wanna hear it? There you have it! Devastators get their trait. No more upgrade called "Advanced targeting". Now default devastators (not upgraded with a lascannon) possess this talent. Hell of a trait? That is devastators for you, son, the Emperor's finest shooters. Unleash your hate, dear friends. And may this thread lead to some change in this regard.

P. S. Looks like I had already suggested that a long time ago.

P. P. S. Just bringing back this thread to life, Riku's initial post should not be in vain. The argumentation there is decent, devastators are bad, absolutely lackluster unless they have their vengeance rounds which sadly blocks the option to get a lascannon. Another thing to consider and change?

Vanilla devs with vengeance rounds would change the whole t1-t2 game structure. I think they would be too powerful and deal too much damage.

Flash wrote:Vanilla devs with vengeance rounds would change the whole t1-t2 game structure. I think they would be too powerful and deal too much damage.

What makes you say that? Have I been missing out all this time on how utterly op devs are? It's not like vengeance devs aren't already a thing and I gotta admit, 75 req is not a steep price.

The change I'd like to see was already mentioned wayyyyyyy back by Sub_Zero iirc to just keep the lascannon open in t2 after purchasing the vengeance rounds. I think it really fits with the sort of modular upgrades that SM uses in general but not making vengeance rounds free.

I've heard mentions of making them a bit tougher, but I hope that would be a fairly minor increase if it happens at all.

baseline vengeance rounds would be OP, leaving the lascannon upgrade as an option after purchasing VR would be fine, and it would actually fit in the SM playstyle of being well rounded but paying for it.

I say that they'd change the game structure because the sm player would no longer be penalized as hard for being behind in going t2. More than 1 dev can serve well to halt early vehichles (excluding walkers. They're not the most efficient at it, but they can do it). As there would be no downside really, fast teching vs. SM becomes less effective.

Devastators just need a bit more HP and the ability to swap between upgrades like tacs or at the very least still be able to upgrade to a lascannon after getting vengeance rounds.

Devastators just need a bit more HP and the ability to swap between upgrades like tacs or at the very least still be able to upgrade to a lascannon after getting vengeance rounds

.

Idk m8, the whole balancing mechanism when it comes to Devs and vengeance rounds comes from that of them not being able to get the lascannon in t2. Being able to get a lascannon even while being able to also upgrade and take vengeance rounds in t2 really distances them between all the other set up teams, even if it cost resources to do so. One thing is for sure however, if that were ever implemented there had better be power cost that goes alongside that upgrade of around 15-20 and 25 req cost increase to100, because 75 req for vengeanc rounds as it stands now would be like a *free upgrade* practically mandatory if you could also get lascannon in t2.


HP buff I'm totally fine with however

I'm not fine with a HP buff whatsoever, that would make them practically immune to ranged damage, especially in T1 which is one of the best ways to counter them as IG/orks/nids. A change in their armour type to make slightly more resistant to grenades would be better.

Outta curiousity, why do (S)HI take increased explosive dmg? Because they take reduced piercing damage?

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Changing their armour type, whilst increasing their health by a small, yet noticeable amount e.g. 20-30 health per model is the direction I'd support. Heavy infantry armour, whilst an acceptable trait in T1 becomes a liability in T2 onwards for devs when plasma dakkas you to death and shees chase you halfway around the map with your piddly health pool.

This is just one suggestion, however. I'm really keen in trying to obtain a unique selling point for SM devs, whether it's through tactical flexibility (the ability to change from vengeance to lascannon, at an increased cost) or scaling survivability.

'm not fine with a HP buff whatsoever, that would make them practically immune to ranged damage, especially in T1 which is one of the best ways to counter them as IG/orks/nids. A change in their armour type to make slightly more resistant to grenades would
be better

.

Hmm Well, I'd hardly say they are immune to ranged damage... but as for T1 I can't deny there would certainly be an impact because as of now in that tier they are fine as is. I'm thinking about the health buff more along the long term than short term. As it stands now, after T1 they are just way too fragile. ( At least to me) They get caught in a flank and it's many times (auto kill) if they get jumped by jump infantry or assaulted, they take 3 smacks and lose the whole squad, they get hit by 2 shots from for say a tank, a zoan, or wierdboy and they are dangerously close to being wiped.
Slightly increasing their health to hopefully slightly help alleviate wipe chances while also having effect on how much impact the spike grenade damage does, seems to be an ideal way to help the problem seeing that there exist only so few armor types/resistance auras to help mitigate damage types. Ideally, if there were a way to separately be able to note the change in survivability in regards from T1 to T2, that is what I would be wanting to see. (Then again, I believe I am looking at this universally as well, in regards to all those set up teams (shuri, havocs, Devs, etc..)

My 2 cents:

Cent 1- A bit more health on dev/havok would be fine and good imo. Maybe +25, so they have the same health as the 3 model Loota squad for comparison. Changing armor type, which I think would be an overall buff, would be just to darn strange for those armies

Cent 2- Allowing las to build on top of advanced targeting I'm not in favor of. The advanced targeting ability is nuts good after all the buffs, and investing in it can mean a significant T1 advantage if played right, plus it provides some light AV. Get a 2nd dev for las if needed. SM have some of the widest selections of AV upgrades on T1 squads, they don't need more of that.

there seems to be some disagreement over dev performance between T1 and T2, with some people worried about buffs that improve survivability in T2 making them too hard to deal with in T1 - why not a paid upgrade to improve health, say, available only in T2, once the plasma weapons etc. start coming out?

and, I really think questions about whether the las upgrade should be available even after taking vengeance is a matter of cost. if you think it makes it "too good", well, make it expensive.

there seems to be some disagreement over dev performance between T1 and T2, with some people worried about buffs that improve survivability in T2 making them too hard to deal with in T1 - why not a paid upgrade to improve health, say, available only in T2, once the plasma weapons etc. start coming out?

Pretty much hit it on the nail.

Tsototar wrote:there seems to be some disagreement over dev performance between T1 and T2, with some people worried about buffs that improve survivability in T2 making them too hard to deal with in T1 - why not a paid upgrade to improve health, say, available only in T2, once the plasma weapons etc. start coming out?

This is something I've always wanted for most (if not all) suppression teams. Suppression team counters get huuuuuge upgrades in T2, from sergeants for jump squads, to units practically dedicated to fucking them out of existence (stikks, pdevs, wraithguard, etc etc etc), whereas suppression teams that are not IG get zilch. Sure, they get some excellent support from certain units, but the fact still remains that they can get instakilled due to their poor health.

and, I really think questions about whether the las upgrade should be available even after taking vengeance is a matter of cost. if you think it makes it "too good", well, make it expensive.

I agree with anomaly that at the current pricing it would be a no-brainer upgrade, but adding a power cost risks making the upgrade very unattractive. Who wants to spend ~50 power on a T1 dev squad? Maybe this is overcomplicated, but perhaps the T2 HP upgrade (80/20 or so) would allow them the option to get the lascannon if they already got vengeance rounds in T1 (vanilla devs that did not get vengeance rounds would keep the option to get the lascannon without needing the HP upgrade). That way you can kinda retroactively give vengeance rounds a power cost without actually charging power in T1.

I feel like suppression teams being less useful in T2 is a fundamental part of the game ends up playing and I don't want to see them perform better in T2 without being nerfed in T1. I mean, that's always been the point. That suppression teams dominate T1, are not great in T2 in the long-run and are only useful in the late game at dealing with isolated units.

I feel like suppression teams being less useful in T2 is a fundamental part of the game ends up playing and I don't want to see them perform better in T2 without being nerfed in T1. I mean, that's always been the point. That suppression teams dominate T1, are not great in T2 in the long-run and are only useful in the late game at dealing with isolated units.

Definitely no argument here on that..as always... Quite a few changed feelings over time... however will we stick with how things are currently or change them in some regards to that of like you said nerfing them somewhat in T1 but bringing them more into play during mid game... Personally, I'm fine with either direction so whatever the majority comes to decide I'll be fine with which ever

v Anomaly v wrote:Idk m8, the whole balancing mechanism when it comes to Devs and vengeance rounds comes from that of them not being able to get the lascannon in t2. Being able to get a lascannon even while being able to also upgrade and take vengeance rounds in t2 really distances them between all the other set up teams, even if it cost resources to do so. One thing is for sure however, if that were ever implemented there had better be power cost that goes alongside that upgrade of around 15-20 and 25 req cost increase to100, because 75 req for vengeanc rounds as it stands now would be like a *free upgrade* practically mandatory if you could also get lascannon in t2.
HP buff I'm totally fine with however

It makes no sense at all that not being able to upgrade to the lascannon is the balance mechanic of the vengeance rounds. By that logic vengeance rounds should be a zero req upgrade. What really distance them from other setupteams is that they have no advantage whatsoever like all the other stock suppression teams have over one another. aka it sucks compared to any of them. That one thing that you call for sure is something I call bullshit. Being able to still upgrade to a lascannon after getting the targetters should be implemented.
And no, 75 req is not "free" at all.

Tsototar wrote:there seems to be some disagreement over dev performance between T1 and T2, with some people worried about buffs that improve survivability in T2 making them too hard to deal with in T1 - why not a paid upgrade to improve health, say, available only in T2, once the plasma weapons etc. start coming out?

Because the core problem would still not be solved by doing so. And the core problem is that they have no advantage whatsoever like all the other stock suppression teams have over one another and that their statline is just the worst to have for a suppression team.

v Anomaly v wrote:

there seems to be some disagreement over dev performance between T1 and T2, with some people worried about buffs that improve survivability in T2 making them too hard to deal with in T1 - why not a paid upgrade to improve health, say, available only in T2, once the plasma weapons etc. start coming out?

Pretty much hit it on the nail.

I'd say we add a sergeant that increases damage, as devastator sergeants on tabletop carry a signum, which Techmarine players may recognize from the signum armor that increases ranged damage and gives mark target. The extra health wouldn't really be worth the extra pop, I feel, unless some other ability is granted. Range could be a buff too, but it may result in too many retreating vehicles being destroyed by rear armor hits. It would also, coincidentally, give devastators the "perk" Riku has been talking about. If adding both makes devastators too strong, we could also give only the signum as an upgrade.

Torpid wrote:Overall devastators are one of the worst set-up teams. However ASM, IMO at least, are one of, if not the best, units in the entire game. Scouts are arguably the second best (best are avengers, but tacs and asm are way better than shees and shuris) starting unit too, so all things considered I don't think a devastator buff is justified.

Torpid, don't mean to to challenge your superior experience and knowledge of the game over me, but I'd really like to hear why you consider assault marines one of the best units in the game, as well as shotgun scouts.

It makes no sense at all that not being able to upgrade to the lascannon is the balance mechanic of the vengeance rounds. By that logic vengeance rounds should be a zero req upgrade. What really distance them from other setupteams is that they have no advantage whatsoever like all the other stock suppression teams have over one another. aka it sucks compared to any of them. That one thing that you call for sure is something I call bullshit. Being able to still upgrade to a lascannon after getting the targetters should be implemented.
And no, 75 req is not "free" at all.

Putting aside your Agressive advances, I understand what you mean along the lines of them not having something directly unique passive trait to them like the other set up teams.(though I wouldn't say they are far out worse)

Shuri-Fast Moving and cam get into position quicker

Havocs- Insta suppression (being brought more in line next patch)

Lootas- invisibility

Heavy weapon team- shield in t2.

The Devs Vengeance rounds become available in t1 but (imo) would be undoubtedly greater than the shuri or Havocs passive strengths hence the 75 req. However, with the suggestion to make them after buying this upgrade able to take up the lascannon in t2, that would make them better all round in the capabilities to deal with the situation. If you want to grant them something to put them more in line with other set up teams that is fine, however a health increase for that squads alone would present a balance issuE in regards to some armies being able to force them off as Torpid pointed out. Health is not a problem in T1 though it is one for most all set up teams in T2. Therefore I said that a health buff should be looked at universally rather than as the passive trait for this unit. If you want to look at a passive trait for this squad, it could be things along the lines of..

1. Slightly faster set up time
2. Quicker garrison time
3. Slightly larger fire arc radius (Width wise)
4. Larger view range radius, so that you can detect a flank faster
Etc.

However, I can't come to terms with not giving at least a slight power cost increase. (I'd be fine with 15 and maybe not 25 req increase as I previously stated) in order to balance the capability of the lascannon being of purchase after the vengeance rounds.

It's fine to agree to disagree...which I'd imagine is going to end up being the case on this one...

I think the player should be able to switch between the two upgrades for devs. Period. The price of the upgrade doesn't change, but the squad reinforcement cost goes up by like 5 req 1 power. OR devs get melee resistance which I am ALL for (Sm fanboy I know).

And has for suppression teams having a harder time come t2, how about a cover bonus come t2 that is a passive? Like immune to weapon knock back and/or suppression while in cover? Or has a lower reload and lower cooldown period while in cover. I do think set-up team lack something come t2 and t3. Some ideas to spur more ideas.

1. Slightly faster set up time

That would be great. This way they will cover their battle-brothers assault marines faster from the claws of all these annoying melee units who are so willing to tear them up.

The ongoing theme of SM is, and as far as I can remember that of tactical flexibility and versatility. Vengeance devs already illustrate this well by being able to switch from a defensive support weapon to an aggressive support weapon at a whim. Being able to switch to lascannons (and perhaps vice versa?) continue both the army and the unit tradition.

The matter of cost and manner of implementation however, is more cloudy.

I'de support allowing devs to switch to a las-cannon after purchasing vengeance rounds assuming VR cost 75/5 instead of 75/0.

I strongly contest buffing their HP or making them better in T2 with no other downsides.