Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[Black Relic]

game mode?
and if you took it out with snipers then wp, you probably won the game because sent is a core unit for ig

Victory point. Couldnt find much more use for them though after it when down. Judgement of Carrion isnt very friendly for Ninja capping, unless they can infiltrate. But Cats where everywhere so there was none of that.

Using annihilate, FFA, or TFFA as a "gamemode" for balance is crazy and stupid, by gamemode i meant if it's a 1v1 2v2 or a 3v3
And i'm surprised you couldnt find a use for them after that, they take down STs pretty easily, do a lot of damage to ogryns, and do a lot of damage to spotters, but i guess it was a 3v3 and the ig spammed mantis?

was 3v3. Couldn't really do much since one reason was that team couldn't hold power much. But i learned something from it is no complaints.

[Sub_Zero]

Caeltos, can you reconsider your decision about the drop pod change?

Why I don't like this change?

Primarily because it takes away the possibility of instantaneous reinforcements. Yes, it is hard to time it, yes, it is highly unreliable but you can still pull it off. It is up to player after all.

Secondly I think that default tactical marines won't make an impact in T2 if we consider this global ability as one that allows you to win fights. So this global is just a cheaper way to get additional tactical marines on the field. Is it worth 350 req and 200 red? I doubt it.

My conclusion is that the upcoming change might be a nerf.

I see two variants here. The first one is when we keep the possibility of instantaneous reinforcements. The second one is when we add other benefits (damage bonus? defensive bonus?) or change the unit (sternguard veterans?)

What do you think?

[Ace of Swords]

Actually it opens up alot more builds in T1, and it's going to be very effective vs nids in all game modes, so it's a welcome change, the drop pod itself as always been pretty bad anyway, cannot be placed on certain terrain 3/4 of the times and it's very slow both in coming down and actually reinforcing the unit (it has to go through the whole animation of it opening etc).

And honestly, if you bled that much to want a drop pod in base you have already fed enough xp to the enemy to lose the game.

[Sub_Zero]

I have never mentioned that I used drop pods to reinforce my units at base. No idea what your "more builds in T1" means. Now if you go for 2x tacs in T1 then there is no need for you to get yet another tac squad. Sternguard veterans, huh? But why no sergeant comes out of the drop pod then? What it has to do with nids is also beyond me. More plasma tacs, huh? And if it has been so bad since forever then why is it removed? And I have never liked drop pods as reinforcement points. Space marines are expensive and you don't want to reinforce them on the field unless you have some healing (TM's beacons, your hero is Apo). Drop pods will become less desirable for me.

[Forestradio]

I'm too lazy to find the links to the replays, but go watch NoisyElmo's triple tacs vs Toil's FC and Riku's LA from the last MRT.

[Forgefather]

I have a question :
Will the new Might of Titan ability of the GK libby stack with the Bro-Cap's WATH and improved WATH ?
Thanks in advance
-Forge

[Caeltos]

I have a question :
Will the new Might of Titan ability of the GK libby stack with the Bro-Cap's WATH and improved WATH ?
Thanks in advance
-Forge

Yes.

[Barrogh]

I'm too lazy to find the links to the replays, but go watch NoisyElmo's triple tacs vs Toil's FC and Riku's LA from the last MRT.

And then it's much easier to find recent replays where drop pod reinforces like 3 armies and turns around the fight (but it's not 1v1 so who cares, eh?), and even more replays with CDB doing the same - simply because it's much easier to use and comes out faster. Instead of fixing ability to make it actually work, however, we'd rather replace it with a very fun and refreshing discount for something that looks like... gimmicky build?

...the drop pod itself as always been pretty bad anyway, cannot be placed on certain terrain 3/4 of the times...

I don't think the upcoming change does anything to fix that.

...and it's very slow both in coming down and actually reinforcing the unit (it has to go through the whole animation of it opening etc).

So, again, why don't we fix that? I understand that it will possibly look weird and I was the guy complaining about bad looks of something (at least until it got fixed), but if we get functionality in return, I don't mind.

And honestly, if you bled that much to want a drop pod in base you have already fed enough xp to the enemy to lose the game.

I don't think anybody honestly cares about base reinforcement. It isn't gamechanging, it amounts to another boring "req discount for red" ability, and I agree that it's hard to recall game or two where the player using pod as reinforcement at base actually won afterwards. Usually he just gets rolled over again exactly the same fashion as right before (yes, usually).

I guess we at least agree on something though.

[L0thar]

I'm too lazy to find the links to the replays, but go watch NoisyElmo's triple tacs vs Toil's FC and Riku's LA from the last MRT.

I watched the finals. You mean the first game where Noisy indeed went 3 tact, get some nice pressure going...and then got rather smoked by nids T3 because tact scalling into late game is rather...uh, unimpressive?

It wasn't exactly a great display of 3 tact viability.

[Uncle Milty]

It was rather a display of noisy thinking that the swarmlord had SHI and not vehicle armor If he killed the Swarmlord he might have won even with 3 tacs vs Riku. Now repeat plz that tacs are not exactly viable.

[Sneery_Thug]

But why no sergeant comes out of the drop pod then? What it has to do with nids is also beyond me... Drop pods will become less desirable for me.

Read Caeltos's thread "Drop Pod rework" (same forum)

"the new approach I'd like to take is to maintain it's reliablity and introduce a more "safe" and very unique and original Drop Pod that was in DoW2 retail. This is that it now provides with a Tactical Marine Squad + Sergeant."

[Barrogh]

Read Caeltos's thread "Drop Pod rework" (same forum)

"the new approach I'd like to take is to maintain it's reliablity and introduce a more "safe" and very unique and original Drop Pod that was in DoW2 retail. This is that it now provides with a Tactical Marine Squad + Sergeant."

If you read this thread's OP (that was edited later than Drop Pod thread got created), there's nothing indicating that there is a sergeant (or buff) there.

[L0thar]

It was rather a display of noisy thinking that the swarmlord had SHI and not vehicle armor If he killed the Swarmlord he might have won even with 3 tacs vs Riku. Now repeat plz that tacs are not exactly viable.

If...might...yeah, I'll repeat that 3 tacts are not exactly viable until I see someone really make it work (preferably in non-mirror matchup).

[Sneery_Thug]

Read Caeltos's thread "Drop Pod rework" (same forum)

"the new approach I'd like to take is to maintain it's reliablity and introduce a more "safe" and very unique and original Drop Pod that was in DoW2 retail. This is that it now provides with a Tactical Marine Squad + Sergeant."

If you read this thread's OP (that was edited later than Drop Pod thread got created), there's nothing indicating that there is a sergeant (or buff) there.

A not leveled tac squad in tier2 ? with a drop pod which doesn't reinforce on landing?
Tacs without any levels in t2 - you will be forced to make them to sternguards for an additional 175/55 in this case??

It costs 200 red and 350 req - I'm pretty sure Caeltos means it with sergeant.

Otherwise you are spending 200 red instead of additional 100 req? )) (although you get them directly on the field.)

[sk4zi]

i tink this is a really cool change.

former times it was like it brought 1 unupgraded tac and reinforced instantly but had no field reinforce.

it offers a lot i think - also more builds - especially no tac T1 builds.

it can also be a quick av purchase or even a setup counter, or a initiate similar to an ASM jump

cool stuff.

i never understood why relic changed that.

also Tacs are really strong in every tier. even in late T3 a tac can still be a good purchase e.g. because of their capping speed (see other thread )

[Sneery_Thug]

It was rather a display of noisy thinking that the swarmlord had SHI and not vehicle armor If he killed the Swarmlord he might have won even with 3 tacs vs Riku. Now repeat plz that tacs are not exactly viable.

If...might...yeah, I'll repeat that 3 tacts are not exactly viable until I see someone really make it work (preferably in non-mirror matchup).

3 tacs in tier1 are viable. For example with snipers vs IG. At least with apo or fc (don't know about tm.)

[L0thar]

it offers a lot i think - also more builds - especially no tac T1 builds.

it can also be a quick av purchase or even a setup counter, or a initiate similar to an ASM jump

It can a be lot of things, problem is it's too damn costly if you don't want the additional tact squad.

The old DP could be used to establish reinforce point, to counter setup teams and it was quite cheap.

The new DP is just not worth if you don't need yet another tact. Which lots of builds don't. Meaning these builds just lost a global.

It also feels so uninspired . PC is going to have a unique unit added to him, that's cool. I wouldn't object if the DP would be redesigned to call-in a new unit, something more interesting that just tacticals.

3 tacs in tier1 are viable. For example with snipers vs IG. At least with apo or fc (don't know about tm.)

Got a vid? Seems quite gimmicky to be honest, but I'm always open to learn something.

And as current patch notes go, you get just a barebone tact squad, no buff, no sergeant, nothing.

[Sneery_Thug]

Got a vid? Seems quite gimmicky to be honest, but I'm always open to learn something.

And as current patch notes go, you get just a barebone tact squad, no buff, no sergeant, nothing.

I guess it was Toil and he made even 4! tacs.) A match casted by Indrid.

I do use 3 tacs sometimes either, but i'm not a good player (although it works quite well for me.)

I don't believe that it s just a "barebone tact squad, no buff, no sergeant, nothing" - Caeltos woldn't do this.

Otherwise I side with the opinion of Soul Drinkers:

How about we make this a apo only call in but instead of tac with sarge its an outright sternguard call in. would give something nice that only apo will have. and leave it like it is now for others. if not make if reinforce a bit faster

If only apo or the other commanders too - it'a another question. Make it even cost more.

[Forestradio]

I'm too lazy to find the links to the replays, but go watch NoisyElmo's triple tacs vs Toil's FC and Riku's LA from the last MRT.

I watched the finals. You mean the first game where Noisy indeed went 3 tact, get some nice pressure going...and then got rather smoked by nids T3 because tact scalling into late game is rather...uh, unimpressive?

It wasn't exactly a great display of 3 tact viability.

No, he got smoked by nids for a variety of factors, not because tacs are UP.

And he won the game vs Toil too.

Seriously, other factions would kill for the ability to call down a squad as versatile and durable as tacs.

[L0thar]

@ Sneery_Thug:

But judging from the patch notes, it does look like barebone tact squad.

And you know what? I would prefer it without sergeant. He is largery irrelevant if I need just the plasma or launcher. But keep the cost down, 350/0/200 is too much for that.

Of course, I would rather see completely new and unique unit, but it seems like that's not the option.

I'm too lazy to find the links to the replays, but go watch NoisyElmo's triple tacs vs Toil's FC and Riku's LA from the last MRT.

I watched the finals. You mean the first game where Noisy indeed went 3 tact, get some nice pressure going...and then got rather smoked by nids T3 because tact scalling into late game is rather...uh, unimpressive?

It wasn't exactly a great display of 3 tact viability.

No, he got smoked by nids for a variety of factors, not because tacs are UP.

And he won the game vs Toil too.

Seriously, other factions would kill for the ability to call down a squad as versatile and durable as tacs.

I didn't say tact were UP, just that their scalling isn't exactly great. Meaning 3+ tact squad are often burden in T3, as they use a lot of pop and upkeep, meaning less termies or predators.

That game vs Toil was nice, thanks for recommendation, I would miss it otherwise.

What you can see in it, hovewer, is quite a nice usage of the old DP. Both players used it to cheaply reinforce their squads and (more importantly) keep their momentum in the fight going. That won't be possible with the new DP unless you also need additional tact squad.

[crazyman64335]

actually both of you are wrong with reference to the finals game noisy had vs riku. The REAL reason he didn't win was because riku got out a swarmlord and noisy assumed the SL was super heavy infantry armor instead of vehicle, so he loaded up on plasma guns. Which does make a fairly significant difference

[Torpid]

Yep. He really really would have won it otherwise. He had absolutely everything he needed in that scenario.

[Atlas]

actually both of you are wrong with reference to the finals game noisy had vs riku. The REAL reason he didn't win was because riku got out a swarmlord and noisy assumed the SL was super heavy infantry armor instead of vehicle, so he loaded up on plasma guns. Which does make a fairly significant difference

Maestro mentioned this earlier and then thread and both Maestro and crazyman are correct in this regard. Idk why people are saying Tacticals don't scale very well.

[Uncle Milty]

aaaas i said

[Ace of Swords]

actually both of you are wrong with reference to the finals game noisy had vs riku. The REAL reason he didn't win was because riku got out a swarmlord and noisy assumed the SL was super heavy infantry armor instead of vehicle, so he loaded up on plasma guns. Which does make a fairly significant difference

Maestro mentioned this earlier and then thread and both Maestro and crazyman are correct in this regard. Idk why people are saying Tacticals don't scale very well.

They do scale badly under the same circumnstances, their damage in t3 is pitiful when paired with other T1 squads on level 4 or t2/t3 squads, and this comparison needs to be made since they are the only ranged squad for sm aside from termies worth to notice.

That said, if you play right and your opponent screws alittle, you should be able to greatly outlevel him by the end of the game, or atleast bleed him more giving you a substancial level/tier (preferibly both) advantage, and when you have a fully upgraded level 3-4 tacts squad while going t3 and your opponent is either struck in T2 with level 2 or less squads or trying to rush T3 for a quick tank, in this situation the flexability of tacts and their "power" will come into play.

[L0thar]

actually both of you are wrong with reference to the finals game noisy had vs riku. The REAL reason he didn't win was because riku got out a swarmlord and noisy assumed the SL was super heavy infantry armor instead of vehicle, so he loaded up on plasma guns. Which does make a fairly significant difference

Are we watching the same game? Noisy loaded on plasma guns before Riku even started T3, let alone got SL out. Why? Good luck going against Riku's composition with bolters alone.

Now could Noisy afford 240/120 to get launchers to counter the SL? And would he had enough DPS against the rest of the Riku's army without pguns? I'm not saying he wouldn't but I also won't believe it until I see it actually done.

actually both of you are wrong with reference to the finals game noisy had vs riku. The REAL reason he didn't win was because riku got out a swarmlord and noisy assumed the SL was super heavy infantry armor instead of vehicle, so he loaded up on plasma guns. Which does make a fairly significant difference

Maestro mentioned this earlier and then thread and both Maestro and crazyman are correct in this regard. Idk why people are saying Tacticals don't scale very well.

They do scale badly under the same circumnstances, their damage in t3 is pitiful when paired with other T1 squads on level 4 or t2/t3 squads, and this comparison needs to be made since they are the only ranged squad for sm aside from termies worth to notice.

That said, if you play right and your opponent screws alittle, you should be able to greatly outlevel him by the end of the game, or atleast bleed him more giving you a substancial level/tier (preferibly both) advantage, and when you have a fully upgraded level 3-4 tacts squad while going t3 and your opponent is either struck in T2 with level 2 or less squads or trying to rush T3 for a quick tank, in this situation the flexability of tacts and their "power" will come into play.

My thoughts exactly.

I like tacts, they are great and unique unit design wise (I wouldn't be going 2 tact in T1 if I though they suck). They are one of the most flexible unit in the game..but they pay a big price for that flexibility, as they should be.

Thanks to their ability to change weapons, their DPS need to be lower compared to specialized squad, otherwise you could just spam them and switch to whatever is needed. Problem is, SM don't have any specialized options, at least against HI/SHI, so in the endgame they are kind of stuck with subpar tacts.

The levels help, big time...but what happens when you lose your leveled squad and try to replace it? Level 1 tactical are pretty bad against stuff you face in T3. Other races in that exact situation can make kasrkins (IG), flash gitz (orks), TCSM (chaos), dark reapers (eldar)...and not really sure about nids or GK, sorry .

Should tacts be buffed? I would like some T3 upgrade, something akin to Vanguards for ASM (not Sterguards, they have different role and their specialize even worse than tacts), which would improve their anti HI/SHI DPS, like ability to equip second plasma gun...buuut I'm afraid that would make them too good. But you may notice a pattern...three of the units I listed were added in Elite. I wouldn't object to a new, more specialized T2/3 SM unit.

[Bahamut]

Stern guards should have been that upgrade that helped tacs scale properly into late t3. got switched to be a "sidegrade" afterwards tho

Imo if the dps of the kraken ammo was about 70 they would be perfect. 60 Imo is way too low

[Barrogh]

Seriously, other factions would kill for the ability to call down a squad as versatile and durable as tacs.

And other factions still would do the same for team-wide CDB

Anyways, I don't think that at this point anything is going to get changed, so yeah...

[Sneery_Thug]

@ Sneery_Thug:

But judging from the patch notes, it does look like barebone tact squad.

And you know what? I would prefer it without sergeant. He is largery irrelevant if I need just the plasma or launcher. But keep the cost down, 350/0/200 is too much for that.

....

What you can see in it, hovewer, is quite a nice usage of the old DP. Both players used it to cheaply reinforce their squads and (more importantly) keep their momentum in the fight going. That won't be possible with the new DP unless you also need additional tact squad.

If you Sagreant , you can tie up even some melee squads like unupgraded warriors (or tie up for example ranged MoT-csm) and meanwhile force your army to this point. Naked tacs will just lose everything.
Or you can get fast sternguards, that are good vs commanders and some infantry squads. With no sarge - you need 2 upgrades first (55 power.)
If those tacs come with sarge (if you want to get sternguards) - you can keep your other ( meanwhile leveled) tac-squads from T1.

(otherwise,pleeeease, just make the current DropPod arrive faster and allow it to reinforse termies in t3 (not on landing, but in general.))

[L0thar]

@ Sneery_Thug:

But judging from the patch notes, it does look like barebone tact squad.

And you know what? I would prefer it without sergeant. He is largery irrelevant if I need just the plasma or launcher. But keep the cost down, 350/0/200 is too much for that.

....

What you can see in it, hovewer, is quite a nice usage of the old DP. Both players used it to cheaply reinforce their squads and (more importantly) keep their momentum in the fight going. That won't be possible with the new DP unless you also need additional tact squad.

If you Sagreant , you can tie up even some melee squads like unupgraded warriors (or tie up for example ranged MoT-csm) and meanwhile force your army to this point. Naked tacs will just lose everything.
Or you can get fast sternguards, that are good vs commanders and some infantry squads. With no sarge - you need 2 upgrades first (55 power.)
If those tacs come with sarge (if you want to get sternguards) - you can keep your other ( meanwhile leveled) tac-squads from T1.

(otherwise,pleeeease, just make the current DropPod arrive faster and allow it to reinforse termies in t3 (not on landing, but in general.))

I'm on the fence on this. On one hand, having the DP cheaper with barebone tact is more flexible. On another, it does make them quite sucky in actual combat right after the call-in. I like one suggestion in the DP thread - make them come down with sergeant and ATSKNF ready. It sounds quite usefull, as it can provide nice disruption. And is up to player for what he uses his tact later.

I would still prefer if it came down with new unique unit (something melee oriented like KCSM for example), but oh well.

As for DP being able to reinforce termies, I totally agree.