I can't stop talking about Tacs n' Sternguard...

[Black Relic]

OO i just realized. My bad, talking about Sternguard Veterans if anyone is wondering. Note to self, don't make post at 4 o'clock in the morning.

.005% or 5 thousandths percent, very low. Since the inspiration stacks per kill that number seems reasonable.

Also another id like to ask is this. What would everyone say if the Vanguard Veteran squad had a passive 10% chance of performing a special attack if their melee skill was lower than their attacker? Would that seem too OP?

Opinions? It sound sound too much?

[Torpid]

Does the special of the vanguard guy with the thunderhammer track?

[Black Relic]

If the special of the thunder hammer tracks then i don't think we can change that. Since it would be a special attack override i think. Unless there is another way to do it, I think it will track.

[Nurland]

What is the point of an inspiration buff of 0,005%? I mean it would not stack to even a tenth of a percent. For comparison Terminator and Lib buff is 5%dmg/10% suppression reduction and Dread buff is 20% (35%dmg/30% suppression reduction with Dark Age of Tech).

[Black Relic]

Well that is only one extra zero after a hundredth .00 and since it would stack by .005. 2 kills would be a damage increase of .01%. 4 kills would be 2 % and so on.

Since the hell fires wipes out models low hp infantry i was thinking it would have to be quite low. Did i choose a number too low? Or should i have said .02% instead?

I don't think it should be a big inspiration like Termies or libby. But something small to just add to it.

Sort of like Orks Waaagh ability. Not a big buff by itself but when it starts to stack it can become quite helpful.

[Dark Riku]

0.005%x4 = 0.02% this won't be noticeable at all.

[Arbit]

Yeah... even if the bonus was permanent and affected allied units within a radius of 100, the vanguards would have to kill 20 models to give a measly 1% bonus, 100 to get a 5%. For reference, kill counts against IG in 3v3s usually go up to the low 100s.

0.05% x 20 = 1%

[Flash]

Does inspiration affect base dmg or the current total?

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i assume it's multiplicative like everything else.

[Vapor]

i assume it's multiplicative like everything else.

generally things are additive actually if they're the same category of buff

[Bahamut]

it's additive to all external multipliers

gonna use termagaunts for the example

base termagaunt dps per model is 3.62.

Since Toxic sacs is a inherent upgrade for them it directly to the base stat of the unit

Toxic sacs increases damage by 45% so we have 3.62x1.45 = 5.25 dps per model

Now, all external multipliers we could have will be calculated with this final base dps

Lets say we have 40% from inspiration, 65% from synapses, 30% from avatar aura, 10% from battle cry and 25% from chapter banner

We get 5.25x(1 + 0.4 + 0.65 + 0.30 + 0.1 + 0.25) = 5.25 x (2.7) = 14.175 dps per termagaunt model

[Cyris]

We get 5.25x(1 + 0.4 + 0.65 + 0.30 + 0.1 + 0.25) = 5.25 x (2.7) = 14.175 dps per termagaunt model

Woah, termas do 14 dps per model? So they are doing 140 dps with 10 members in T2? Totally overpowered!!!!






/troll face

[Magus Magi]

I'm baaaaack!

I have to say, this suggestion is very interesting to me.

During the recent Vanguard buff Caeltos improved their life regeneration. I liked that idea because it's sort of a new mechanic in DoW2 (those of you familiar with my posts know how much I like that stuff). The theory, I assume from his description, was that ignoring the Vanguard on the battlefield would allow them to regenerate health at an increased rate and remain active in combat for longer. It's a mechanic which rewards attentive opponents who focus the Vanguard until they are chased from the field, and rewards good players for maneuvering the Vanguard in order to keep them in the fight longer. Other units in the game have regenerative abilities, but most are vampiric as opposed to inherent (ex. genestealers).

The concept of having a very low inspiration mechanic on Sternguard is very interesting to me. As most of you know, I don't think Sternguard do enough damage and I don't think it's worth it to purchase them (I think flamer tacs into missile launcher tacs are just safer options all around). Everything I say below is coming from that perspective.

In the same spirit as the Vanguard buff, a buff to Sternguard which caused them to get little inspiration bonuses to damage with every kill would mean "ignore = mounting problem." It accomplishes a similar goal to the Vanguard buff. Sternguard effectiveness would increase dramatically over time, provided the opponent didn't have the sense to tie them up (and provided the Sternguard were making consistent kills).

I recognize that the exact damage increase would have to be small, in a very small radius around the squad, and might need to last a short period of time in order to cap the amount that it could stack.

I like the idea because it fits thematically with the Vanguard. Two units, each with an ongoing combat mechanic. The longer a battle goes, the more useful the Vanguard health regen has been during that battle (every second the Vanguard remain in a fight, the more hp has been regenerated by that squad during that fight). The longer a battle goes, the more useful the Sternguard damage bonus is. Since you can only get one of each, they aren't hard to isolate and focus on.

I genuinely liked the concept. For what that's worth.

[ThongSong]

a mini inspiration buff for the 1st company veterans would make we weep with joy :3

[Black Relic]

OOO I might need to clarify than. I use 1.00 as 100% since that is how is usually goes in Cope's tool. So .05% is 5 percent. I have caused some confusion. My bad again. Will change that to make the following post more sense.

I wasn't thinking it should be a large inspiration. But i was thinking it should below since hell fire rounds tear through guardsmen. Which actually reminds me.Each rounds have their own weapon rbf. So each ammo type could do their own inspiration. How does this concept sound so far? Good or bad? If it was to have inspiration be like the following.

Hell fire: 1.5% (since multiple people say its too low, how about this?)

Kraken: 5%

Dragonfire: 6%

Vengance: 10%

Comment on each a tell me if it sounds acceptable. If not, tell me what you think i should be?

[Magus Magi]

The only thing I would be remotely worried about with the ammos giving different bonuses would be switching between them to increase damage.

So, if vengeance rounds give a 10%, and there is a heretic squad and an enemy chaos lord, I'd shoot the heretics with vengeance rounds to get a few kills and boost my damage by 10% before switching to hellfire rounds to shoot the hero.

Other than that possibility, I see what you're going for. I wonder if the Hellfire rounds shouldn't just be nerfed a bit. I really like your idea of having the Sternguard get steadily more revved up in combat. It would give them a unique mechanic for the space marine army (Nobs have something similar I guess, but I suspect the Sternguard bonus would be much less pronounced).

[Black Relic]

Ahhh good point. Thanks haven't thought about that. Maybe instead of 10% vengeance be a 5% like Kraken?

I was thinking 10% since you have to get so close to use the vengeance rounds. But as you pointed out, that number sounds too large.

[Magus Magi]

Introduction:

I know that most of you guys are sick of this thread by now, but I’ve got a new platform I’d like to pick your brains on.

Every time I get a few levels on my SG and begin shooting lightly armored targets and heroes, I’ll admit, they do pretty well if they aren’t immediately tied up. I still feel like their Kraken rounds are downright underwhelming, their dragonfire rounds are too niche, and the range on vengeance rounds is too short. This is in contrast to Hellfire rounds, which I'm beginning to feel over perform in some situations...

So here’s an idea, one that I hope you like. A little damage restructuring on SG rounds that I think would go a long way towards making them a more interesting unit, without their impinging on the role of specialized tactical marines, and without overpowering them.

The Concept:

Hellfire Rounds: What if hellfire round damage over time was limited to champion armor. This would be a pretty good nerf to the effectiveness of this particular round, but it would leave intact a major use for hellfire rounds as stated by many of the commenters on this thread. Namely, a ranged counter, non-existent in other SM units, to tanky champions.

Dragonfire Rounds: Instead of hellfire rounds being the counter to light infantry, add a damage bonus against light infantry to dragonfire rounds and transfer that role to them. It’s much more thematic, and suddenly puts dragonfire rounds on the map in terms of most firefights.

Vengeance Rounds: Increase the range on vengeance rounds to match the others. I know I harp on about this, but it doesn’t make any sense at all that the range is still so short after the significant damage nerf this round experienced. Forcing the SG to charge enemy tanks and dreadnoughts, ahead of the other units in the SM army is cumbersome in the extreme. The Tac Missile launcher is the superior anti-armor option and I'm 100% good with that, but at least let the SG stay with the SM army while attacking a vehicle, instead of forcing them out of rank and ahead of other SM ranged units.

Kraken Rounds: Increase the range of Kraken rounds. I get the idea that Tacs with a plasma gun should remain the specialized damage option for SM players looking for a HI counter. I really liked the idea of increased Kraken range on SG (previously implemented and reverted). It’s not raw damage, but it still increases the effectiveness of using Kraken rounds, which have consistently remained the weakest round choice for SG in combat (ignoring Dragonfire rounds which are so niche that they are essentially outside of a traditional combat analysis). More importantly, it gives the SG something different, something unique to that unit to distinguish them and what they're good at.

Conclusion/Summation:

- Hellfire rounds experience a significant nerf but keep a distinct and important role that SG players have become used to (anti-chamption).
- Dragonfire rounds become the anti-light armor round, making them useful in most engagements (all four rounds now have a primary combat use and micro between them is further rewarded/more dynamic playstyle).
-Kraken rounds experience a buff which distinguishes their role from that of tactical marine anti-HI and makes SG play more interesting, balanced, and unique within the SM army (not a damage buff but still improves the efficacy of the round, still vulnerable to gap closing troops, DAMAGE IS LOW compared to potential tactical marine damage and is supportive in nature).
-Finally, Vengeance rounds return to normal range. C'mon…the range nerf was implemented when Vengeance rounds were positively lethal to everything. They were the mini-MoT round, but with AV power. That’s not at all the case anymore.

Caeltos, I know you are probably sick and tired of my rambling. I have one tiny favor to ask of you: If you wouldn't mind commenting on this idea, it would mean a lot to me as a player and as a fan of your work.

[Indrid]

The Kraken rounds were buffed and are pretty good now. 14.58 DPS per model at level 1 with full damage to all infantry types, which is a pretty rare thing for a range 38 weapon. You never really specify what you find underwhelming about them. For an option on such a generalist unit they seem very reasonable.

Yes Dragonfire are niche but that doesn't make them bad. Having a garrison counter with good range ready to use whenever you need is pretty useful.

Hellfire are awesome vs their intended targets and seem to be the main draw of the Sternguard. As this is something Tactical Marines can't really emulate I think it's a solid design decision.

Vengeance rounds range was nerfed because on-the-fly vehicle counters are a very powerful thing. Vehicles, especially early vehicles, are often under a lot of pressure as it is in the current meta. It is only 8 less range, it's not like it is halved or something. Vengeance damage was only significantly nerfed vs HI, and then slightly vs SHI - but you should be using Kraken against both of those.

I think Sternguard are a solid unit right now. Not everything has to be an amazing Deathstar of destruction. They give you a solid, versatile unit with a permanent sergeant, nice ability (ATSKNF - even more versatility!) and durability. Yes, you lose current levels but you are not forced to get them and try to make them work in every scenario.

[Magus Magi]

Holy balls Indrid, I love your casts man! Thank you for taking the time to type out a response.

I find Kraken rounds underwhelming because it's just 14 dps of piercing damage. Tacs can accomplish much the same thing without ever needing to buy a plasma gun. The purpose of my suggestion to increase range was just to make Kraken rounds feel unique and different, and help differentiate the role of SG from that of Tacs.

As for the success of Hellfire rounds, I do not contest that one bit. They are, without any doubt, the reason to purchase SG. I just think that's a shame. Here's a unit with 4 different rounds. 3 average/underused rounds and 1 awesome one. Just seems like a missed chance.

I do not think that Dragonfire rounds are, numerically speaking, bad. I didn't mean to communicate that at all. I just think it would be interesting to expand their role because they aren't usually useful. Why not make them the light armor counter? It means you'd see them more often, because they'd be more useful in most games. Sternguard have a unique mechanic (ammo types) that's cool and interesting, that encourages an active playstyle. This change would play to that mechanic.

Finally, my point about Vengeance rounds is what it is. I don't think it was nerfed because it was an on-the-fly counter, I remember it being nerfed because it was the only round worth loading. It killed everything. So Kraken got a range increase and Vengeance got a range decrease. Now that the damage has been rebalanced, the lower range just makes using them that little bit more cumbersome. I don't think that's necessary to maintain balance, if you do, then you're probably right because you know more about the game than me.

I must be making some sense here, right? Kraken rounds are boring as all get out, Hellfire rounds are disproportionately useful compared to the others, dragonfire are the opposite entirely, and Vengeance rounds...well, I've talked a great deal about them already. I'm really not proposing a "Deathstar of destruction" change here.

Indrid, if you are willing, I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this.

[Indrid]

I find Kraken rounds underwhelming because it's just 14 dps of piercing damage.

It's not piercing damage. As I said in my previous post, they do full damage to all infantry targets now - piercing does less to HI and significantly less to SHI. Current Sternguard Kraken are now like a toned down inferno bolter from MoT CSM.

The rest of your points I feel I gave my thoughts on already.

Furthermore, Tac missile launcher is just over 10 DPS iirc. Sternguard Vengeance do 4.67 DPS per model to vehicles, so 18.68 DPS for the squad. The Tac missile is delivered in a big burst and only requires one model which is a lot better, but still not bad at all for the Sternguard option.

EDIT: Here are the Sternguard rounds btw:

Dragonfire
Hellfire
Kraken
Vengeance

[Magus Magi]

I apologize, I guess I mistyped there!

My point remains largely unchanged though. Even if it meant taking a few points of DPS off Kraken rounds (although I don't think that's really necessary...), a range difference would further distinguish them from Tacs, and make them more interesting. I think more interesting effects for the rounds is a good thing, especially if the implementation doesn't make the unit overpowered.

Thanks for continuing to discuss this with me.

Thanks for providing the round stats btw.

My issue with Vengeance rounds isn't AV effectiveness. I think they do their job fine when in range. I just think the slightly shorter range is unnecessary given the damage they do, and is cumbersome.

[Indrid]

Use combined arms. SM are blessed with good sources of vehicle control - FC Fist, Orbs, Lascannons, Melta Bombs. Pair any of those with the Vengeance rounds and most vehicles are under threat. Remember they are kind of like a toned down meltagun in their functionality, and have much better range than actual meltas.

[Magus Magi]

Sorry for the late response, class called and I answered.

As for your gameplay advice, that's always appreciated, especially from a player with your know-how.

That said, I feel like your response is answering a different question than the one I'm trying to ask. Your response reads like the answer to "How can I use SG vengeance rounds effectively?" I didn't mean for my suggestion to convey that question. Instead, I'd say "Is a lower than average range on Vengeance rounds justified by the damage that Vengeance rounds deal?" is the real question behind my recommendation.

I do not feel that Vengeance round damage is so high now as to justify its decreased range. The range decrease was implemented at a time when the Vengeance round damage was higher (against most unit types). If the range decrease isn't necessary to keep the unit from being overpowered, then I feel my point is vindicated.

Your gameplay advice makes absolute sense, but it would apply equally regardless of the range on Vengeance rounds.

I hope this response wasn't so long in coming that it's killed the chance for more discussion. You're a pretty darn good Chaos player, and your position as a caster gives you a unique perspective on gameplay balance, so I feel really lucky to have this chance to pick your brain.

[Indrid]

Well, I'll just close by reiterating that I think all their rounds are pretty well balanced at the moment. Whether Caeltos takes another look at them at some point or the unit in general we'll have to wait and see.

I do think that they should do some damage while they switch ammo types though, atm their "loading" round does no damage.

[Nurland]

Dunno why but I think the ML dps in the codex is not correct. It does 130 damage every 6,7 seconds. So the dps for the ML should be 19,4 or so.

Nevertheless it does not change the fact that Vengeance Rounds are a nice soft counter for vehicles.

[Torpid]

Sterns are fine. To buff kraken rounds would really be quite unnecessary and to buff vengeance rounds would demand a nerf on hellfire rounds. Pretty pointless given that hellfire rounds do something unique and therefore are the general reason to actually get sterns, which super vengeance rounds wouldn't be.

[Lulgrim]

Dunno why but I think the ML dps in the codex is not correct. It does 130 damage every 6,7 seconds. So the dps for the ML should be 19,4 or so.

130 damage every 7.3 seconds (0.6 burst + 0.7 wind-down + 6.0 reload). It's because for some technical reason some missile weapons have a burst duration, and the burst fire formula screws missile calculations. I don't have the formula right here but it seems to calculate the damage for 0.6 missiles per pop.

130 dmg / 7.3 s = 17.81 damage per second
0.6 x 17.81 = 10.68 which is what the auto DPS calculator gives

[Nurland]

Ahhh. That explains.

[Magus Magi]

Given the last few posts on here I think I need to be perfectly clear:

At no point have I suggested that Vengeance rounds are insufficient in terms of damage when attacking vehicles. I've suggested that their lower range is not necessary considering their rebalanced damage.

At no point have I suggested making "super vengeance rounds." I suggested giving Vengeance rounds normal range, where "normal" is represented by the other rounds.

At no point have I suggested eliminating the power that Sternguard get from Hellfire rounds. What I have suggested doing is splitting that power between Hellfire and Dragonfire rounds in order to push their ammo switching mechanic and in order to justify a slight buff to Kraken rounds, which are painfully dull. That does mean hitting the ability of Sternguard to peel infantry models in retreat, but does not mean hitting the ability of Sternguard to kill infantry in combat.

The Kraken Round buff I've suggested is a range increase which is more than compensated for by splitting the efficiency of Hellfire rounds between Dragonfire and Hellfire rounds and would make Kraken rounds something other than your "basic bolter" round.

I'm very interested in hearing from all of you, and I'll readily engage with anyone about this topic because it's so interesting to me. That said, please read my post on the bottom of page 23 of this thread, which details the changes I'm suggesting, before dismissing that idea. I would do the same for any of you.