Dawn of War Codex

Someone is talking about Tacs n' Sternguard...

It's time...for me to make a nuisance of myself again.

Seriously though, I'd like to echo a few of the previous posts with my own opinions:

(1) I too think that SG should have been used as a means of scaling Tacs into tier 3 better.

(2) I too would like some kind of late game upgrade to make Tacs scale better into the late game (something akin to eternal war perhaps, but in tier 3 (call that sucker "bolter drill," do it, you know you want to ).

(3) (OPINION) If I could have any one thing in ELITE, I'd want SG repurposed into a tier 3 UPGRADE for Tacs. If people are worried about the loss of anti-hero/light infantry damage (from hellfire SG), then I say make the Tac plasma gun better against hero armor and change the pricing a little.

Alright, that's it. I'm done. You all know my feelings on this. I won't go on about it here. For those of you who disagree, I totally understand. After all, we've probably debated this exact point at some time in the past.

Ace of Swords wrote:They do scale badly under the same circumnstances, their damage in t3 is pitiful when paired with other T1 squads on level 4 or t2/t3 squads, and this comparison needs to be made since they are the only ranged squad for sm aside from termies worth to notice.

That said, if you play right and your opponent screws alittle, you should be able to greatly outlevel him by the end of the game, or atleast bleed him more giving you a substancial level/tier (preferibly both) advantage, and when you have a fully upgraded level 3-4 tacts squad while going t3 and your opponent is either struck in T2 with level 2 or less squads or trying to rush T3 for a quick tank, in this situation the flexability of tacts and their "power" will come into play.

Tacs don't become particularly fearsome at lvl4 but IMO they're among the likeliest of T1 squads to survive to become lvl4.

single storm bolter upgrade.

Speaking of Storm Bolters I was going through my files and noticed the normals on Apo's Bolter had strange reflections. I updated the link with fixed normals. The light should now look more realistic.

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:single storm bolter upgrade.

Btw, stormbolter is the tier 3 upgrade for tacs in the codex edition mod.)

I was browsing through the Codex Space Marines the other day and I noticed that full-sized tactical squads could take one specialist weapon (plasma, melta, flamer, etc.) and one heavy weapon (plasma cannon, lascannon, etc.). So I was thinking; if tactical space marines scale so badly through the tiers, would it be over the top to allow tactical space marines to be able to take the missile launcher in addition to another special weapon in tier 3?

Have you seen what Double Tacs with Flamers can go to Double GM or DA? And if you were to allow them to utilize an extra weapon like a Missle Launcher as well then you'll need some Layered Suppresion or Heavy Disruption. So I think it'll be a bit over the top

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While storm bolters seems interesting, I don't think another weapon with piercing damage type is something SM needs in the late game (though I probably wouldn't be complaining were they given one).

I was thinking more about combi-weapons upgrade for sternguards in T3. At least plasma or melta. Implementation obviously depends. Guns for every member or just two? Damage, rate of fire, price...

My vision is something pricey (say 60/100) but very powerful. Great counter to SHI (with plasma) or slow heavy vehicles (with melta), but itself very counterable - no supression immunity (unless ATSKNF, but then very slow), no knockback immunity, not spammable.

Why for SG? The lesser specialization for basic tact is a price for their flexibility. Maybe they should stay that way. SG, on the other hand, are limited to 1 unit only, like superunits, so there's a potential to make more stuff with them without breaking the game.

For 2 squads of Tactical Space Marines, I can deploy 4 squads of Guardsmen or Dire Avengers. My Tactical Space Marines can, will, and should tear into an equal number of squads in Guardsmen or Dire Avengers and defeat them at any range. That's why every single race in the game outnumber Space Marines. Fully upgraded Guardsmen outshoot Tactical Space Marines. Buy plasma guns. Dire Avengers have an unholy range of abilities. Throw grenades, use shields. Flamers are, after all, upgrades.

The main point I was trying to rectify was that Tactical Space Marines do not scale well through the tiers; I mean, sure, they have some decent ability to fight enemies in close combat when they are leveled and with their fearsome sergeant. But their ranged damage, ironically, doesn't go up nearly as well.

By allowing them to get a missile launcher AND a plasma gun, it allows them to remain operational towards heavy infantry, which they are not of much use against when they have missile launchers, as those things miss a LOT against everything smaller than a Terminator. Similarly, plasma guns are useless against vehicles. In addition, this will make Tactical Space Marines formidable opponents to most super-heavy infantry, which more often than not are large.

The Tacs strongest aspect and their scaling capabilities is represented in their versatility. Not their counter-ing abilities. With support they can really put pressure on Vehicles and SHI as is. Especially when under Mark Target, FTE or Battlecry.

Side note; Dont ever bother with Quad GM or DA

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L0thar wrote:I was thinking more about combi-weapons upgrade for sternguards in T3. At least plasma or melta. Implementation obviously depends. Guns for every member or just two? Damage, rate of fire, price...

Just a random thought: we already have combi-weapon in DoW2, that's CL's combi-flamer. I was thinking, what if we go about those combi-weapons the same way it is done on CL, by adding an ability with CD.

That should add some punch against selected type of enemy (depending on what you purchase) in an engagement, which is pretty much the purpose of both this suggestion here and combi-weapons in tabletop.

While we are at it, I wouldn't port combi-flamer directly from CL. Channeling ability isn't, perhaps, what sternguards would want.

So, it would look like this:

- Combi-flamer creates a firewall with ability_flame (?) damage, something like WL's Immolator that also doesn't rape gen farms (it's always an issue it seems);
- Combi-plasma can be something like temporary buff that swaps attack for plasma shots (I'm not sure if it's possible though; while projectile looks and damage probably is, as it with Vengeance roungs, I dunno about damage type);
- Combi-melta is your anti-mech blast;

Considering what tankbustas can do with their ability, I assume that making every model in squad fire selected ability simultaneously is possible. Giving just one combi-toy to entire squad would be lame and won't work well with "plasma" concept above.

Give the tac sergeant the choice to buy equipment upgrade in T3; namely Plasma pistol + power sword. Give the unit some Power Melee and Plasma damage. They will become very interesting in T3.

appiah4 wrote:Give the tac sergeant the choice to buy equipment upgrade in T3; namely Plasma pistol + power sword. Give the unit some Power Melee and Plasma damage. They will become very interesting in T3.

Hey. Funny how I've never heard this idea before despite that we actually could do this (kinda) in DoW1 and it was quite useful at times if you're lucky.

I like this idea.

I also think that it should be a permanent upgrade to a squad so that every sarge in it would get dem toys. Otherwise it will be hard to put to quality use IMO.

lolzarz wrote:For 2 squads of Tactical Space Marines, I can deploy 4 squads of Guardsmen or Dire Avengers. My Tactical Space Marines can, will, and should tear into an equal number of squads in Guardsmen or Dire Avengers and defeat them at any range. That's why every single race in the game outnumber Space Marines. Fully upgraded Guardsmen outshoot Tactical Space Marines. Buy plasma guns. Dire Avengers have an unholy range of abilities. Throw grenades, use shields. Flamers are, after all, upgrades.

You should not compare the units in cost one vs the other.
2 guardsmen units can overcome Tactical Space Marine, sure, but the firsts are insanely weak against any AoE.
So the Dire Avengers.

And AoE isn't rare in late game.

Yes, you're right, splash is all over the place in late-game. Which is why flamers should be the least of the Guardsmen's worries. Which is why the scenario discussed earlier with missile launcher+flamer crushing Guardsmen and Dire Avengers is not a good example, as I proposed the ability for 1 special weapon+missile launcher to be gained in Tier 3.

I still have the feeling that the KNobs Mega Boom Kit is well overperforming for its price. Not only does it overshadow the other armor upgrades but is way too cheap for something that lets the commander scale that well even into late t3. I have suggested some testing to tex a while ago but i guess nothing really came out of it.

Please give it a second thought.

Barrogh wrote:

L0thar wrote:I was thinking more about combi-weapons upgrade for sternguards in T3. At least plasma or melta. Implementation obviously depends. Guns for every member or just two? Damage, rate of fire, price...

Just a random thought: we already have combi-weapon in DoW2, that's CL's combi-flamer. I was thinking, what if we go about those combi-weapons the same way it is done on CL, by adding an ability with CD.

That should add some punch against selected type of enemy (depending on what you purchase) in an engagement, which is pretty much the purpose of both this suggestion here and combi-weapons in tabletop.

While we are at it, I wouldn't port combi-flamer directly from CL. Channeling ability isn't, perhaps, what sternguards would want.

So, it would look like this:

- Combi-flamer creates a firewall with ability_flame (?) damage, something like WL's Immolator that also doesn't rape gen farms (it's always an issue it seems);
- Combi-plasma can be something like temporary buff that swaps attack for plasma shots (I'm not sure if it's possible though; while projectile looks and damage probably is, as it with Vengeance roungs, I dunno about damage type);
- Combi-melta is your anti-mech blast;

Yes, that also sounds very interesting! Not constant damage buff like my suggestion, but something ability based instead. Fits well into the SG role and I agree it's very close representation of combi-weapons in TT (which isn't requiered by any means, but it's always nice).

As for the combi-plasma, it could be a quick volley of plasma shots, or one big shot - similar to the Stormtrooper Overcharge from current patch notes.

appiah4 wrote:Give the tac sergeant the choice to buy equipment upgrade in T3; namely Plasma pistol + power sword. Give the unit some Power Melee and Plasma damage. They will become very interesting in T3.

I like that too, but I have slightly different proposal: a T3 upgrade that outfits the sergants with loadout depending on your special weapons:

flamer - default chainsword and bolt pistol
plasma gun - power sword and plasma pistol
missile launcher - power fist and melta gun

I know especially power fist and melta gun sounds OP, but it won't be if the DPS is keep low enough.

Both of these suggestions also help making tacts and SG even more disctinct.

Don't really see why tacs need further buffing tbh now that their sarge's upkeep is being reduced in cost.

It doesn't not help them in combat. It does help to maintain your army though but that is another aspect.

I think that is some unit need to scale better is Guardsmen.
They have good DPS with the Plasma Gun, but they are so squishy that in most late game combat they last a few seconds before something force them to retreat.

My suggestion is to bring the units that the Sergeant and the Commissar add to the unit size from 2 to 3.
This will not add any significative DPS in combat, nor help to bleed less (perhaps the opposite) but it will help to stay in combat a little more and add a small chance of surviving to Global and Abilities that whipe them in a instant (and they are a lot).

It is a very little change, so i don't think will change the game or the meta (maybe make the non-sentinel opening a very little more credibile, and that's not a bad thing).

Guardsmen already have huge survivability until AOE comes and even then they can dodge an unforseen plasma cannon shot or heavy flamer cleansing flame by hitting retreat and then executing one pitiful guardsmen to cancel it. Combine that with the super cheap medi-bunkers or even a chimera (which justifiably is getting another buff next patch) and there's very little reason to ever have your GM off the field.

This game comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lidqjA0_AQo

L0thar wrote:As for the combi-plasma, it could be a quick volley of plasma shots, or one big shot - similar to the Stormtrooper Overcharge from current patch notes.

At first I was going to suggest this, but since you've suggested that combi-plasma should help with termies and the like, I decided that plasma nuke with small AoE (how I was imagining it since I didn't want it to be anti-blob and thus overlap with combi-flamers) just doesn't quite sound like a counter to small squads of resilient infantry that walks in relatively loose formation without said nuke mopping the floor with larger tightly-packed squads of low-hp models. Channeling ability that makes squad shoot plasma volleys using default shooting mechanics looks like better idea to me if it's possible. It all comes down to what can be coded with less problems and how much burst we want this ability to have. Since it's kinda the purpose of the upgrade (additional damage spike without shifting SG's style from continuous DPS towards burst), ability that forces a volley sounds ok to me.

L0thar wrote:I like that too, but I have slightly different proposal: a T3 upgrade that outfits the sergants with loadout depending on your special weapons:

flamer - default chainsword and bolt pistol
plasma gun - power sword and plasma pistol
missile launcher - power fist and melta gun

I know especially power fist and melta gun sounds OP, but it won't be if the DPS is keep low enough.

Both of these suggestions also help making tacts and SG even more disctinct.

Any particular reason flamer tacs won't get anything from the upgrade? Unless you mean that chainsword/bolt pistol they get aren't exactly default weapons, but rip'n'tear versions thereof?

EDIT: One potential issue with your suggestion is that it improves squad's dakka ability against type of target they are geared to fight at that moment which may or may not be a desireable effect behind the upgrade.

Not everybody have that combat awerness.

It's ok for average player to lose a squad of Cultists or another squishy unit, but every primary units from IG require a lot of attentions. Guardsmen and Sentinels are fragile and can be whipe out easily if you make a mistake or overextend a little.

I understand that this is how the race is played, but a little help in survivability and some chance of being a little more aggressive and not just poking-and-retreat, in my modest opinion, will benefit the gameplay with that faction.

I think that's a low-level concern. It's often why low-level players find eldar exceptionally weak and point the finger at chaos (especially the CL) for being so overpowered - namely because eldar are hard to micro and play well, whereas chaos are exceptionally easy. IG are hard too, however IG are more than capable as of now. Sentinels missles if anything are overpowered and sentinels are hard to lose in t1 tbh, you're opponent usually has to reliably do something to try and kill them. Or they can just purchase snipers (but only two races have them).

Heretics are (from my experience) about 5x more difficult to keep alive in their default state than sentinels and 20x more difficult than guardsmen. Guardsmen have huge health pools both in t1 and t2.

IG are based around that poke and retreat factor, much like eldar. However eldar sacrifice combat inefficiency with increased wipe potential and superior maneuverability, whereas IG suck at wipe potential and are horrendously slow, yet you can't fight a blobbed IG and hope to come out with an economical victory unless you wipe a squad, yet IG squads are extremely hard to wipe.

Unspoken rule, it'll be done when it's an done, but I'm just so very excited to see the changes! I'm wondering if there is a tentative eta on this?

Barrogh wrote:Channeling ability that makes squad shoot plasma volleys using default shooting mechanics looks like better idea to me if it's possible. It all comes down to what can be coded with less problems and how much burst we want this ability to have. Since it's kinda the purpose of the upgrade (additional damage spike without shifting SG's style from continuous DPS towards burst), ability that forces a volley sounds ok to me.

I like the volley idea more as well, for reasons you listed (mainly to avoid overlap with flamer).

Barrogh wrote:

L0thar wrote:I like that too, but I have slightly different proposal: a T3 upgrade that outfits the sergants with loadout depending on your special weapons:

flamer - default chainsword and bolt pistol
plasma gun - power sword and plasma pistol
missile launcher - power fist and melta gun

I know especially power fist and melta gun sounds OP, but it won't be if the DPS is keep low enough.

Both of these suggestions also help making tacts and SG even more disctinct.

Any particular reason flamer tacs won't get anything from the upgrade? Unless you mean that chainsword/bolt pistol they get aren't exactly default weapons, but rip'n'tear versions thereof?

EDIT: One potential issue with your suggestion is that it improves squad's dakka ability against type of target they are geared to fight at that moment which may or may not be a desireable effect behind the upgrade.

That was actually my intention - not to make them generally better (the pfist + melta loadout would do less damage to infantry than the default sword and pistol, for example...just like missile launcher does slightly worse than default bolter), but better geared against the kind of unit the tact squad already slighty specialize. I think it would make tacts amazingly flavourful (even more than they already are).

As for the flamer option, I feel that the default sergeant loadout complements the anti infantry specialization the best. Of course it could add some DPS, if needed.

Caeltos, please consider this instead of the changes listed about gaunts:

keep models at 80 hp per
keep build time of endless swarm at 15secs or maybe 20secs
increase the price of endless swarm to 75/25
decrease the amount of extra models of endless swarm to 0 (1 if 0 not possible)

Think about this, in retail gaunts are no issue, no body has ever said gaunts are OP in retail. Now in elite they have less hp in t2 (syanpse rework) but an extra syanpse with tower and endless swarm, but all that comes in t2, not in t1. They are already extremely easy to deal with in t1 but really tough to deal with in t2, probelm is t2, not t1

Caeltos wrote:General Changes
* All melee oriented walkers now have melee resistance
* Dreadnoughts + Venerable , Chaos Dreadnought, Deff Dredd , Carnifex

does this mean tzeetch chaos dread too? or BS/VC fex? or only khrone dread and vanilla/TB fex?

Caeltos wrote:Psycanons now deal 0.75 damage to targets at distant(?) and 1.0
at rest

does this apply to psycannon splash damage or psycannon actual damage?

Up till now I thought banshees were the unit that everyone fought over. Now I know that it will always be about tacs.

Atlas wrote:Up till now I thought banshees were the unit that everyone fought over. Now I know that it will always be about tacs.

Well, to be fair, they are discussing about the drop pad changes which is a significant change for SM IMHO since they'll lose the instant 100 req reinforce for everything cept Termies in exchange for Tac Squad

But the melee resistance for melee walker is gonna make Aspect Of Strength Banshee a risky buy

A bit more elaboration on the walkers would be nice, which walkers exactly get them, and do they loose it when they upgrade?