Dawn of War Codex

Aetherion wrote:
Am I the only who's going to get the German joke?

Torpid wrote:I got it too. You don't have to be that cultured to know how to say 'no' in one of the world's most influential languages

Sry was just curious how prevalent it was

Hellstar wrote:Lots of good comments.

o/ bro and ty for watching! As for your questions:

Of the 13 games I played, I ended with a 9-4 record. I lost once to JustFly, once to Stevd, once to Forestradio and once to somebody I can't remember off the top of my head.

I honestly wasn't looking into the ops so much as the terminators, since that was the main point of dialogue in the thread here. That's why most of my observations were with the OPness of Terms in 1v1.

I can't remember when and where, but I do remember saying at several points that I can't say much about the balance of a particular game because of wider skill levels. That being said, even against inferior opponents I couldn't really field terminators without feeling vulnerable.

For most of these games I'll honestly attribute to just being better than my opponent. I think that JusTfly and Forestradio are definitely better than me and possibly a few of the players I played were equal to me. It's hard to tell off of one game.

I went double ops much later on vs Forest in two games, and they pulled a lot of weight vs SM. They didn't have fallback plan or the sergeant either to my best recollection. They were able to alpha down a lot of very expensive models and in those games I didn't even have satchels.

The major point I was making was that Terminators are not making GK just rofl win mode right now. At least not in 1v1s.

I think the only things that I think needs to happen concerning GK. And on a side note Operatives are over-performing based on what they cost.

1: Operatives need a range modifier where they do less damage to units farther away but maybe a bit more to very close units to still give GK a way to deal with mass melee in t1. I think from distant, long, medium, short modifiers should be 0.5, 0.75, 1, 1.1 rather than full damage at every range.

2: Satchel charge damage modifier toward building_light armor needs to be lowered so they cannot be destroyed by one charge. Id be fine with the charge doing about 450 damage to the gens so the unit wouldn't be wasting their time bashing gens.

3: This is probably going to happen anyway. The Cooldown on the terminator retreat needs to go up to maybe 4 minutes 30 seconds. But I also think that plus 3 speed is a bit too much. I feel the terminators should still be a bit vulnerable while they retreat so maybe a 2.5 speed or something a bit lower than 3.

Atlas, would you care to elaborate more on the Noise Marines?

Black Relic wrote: But I also think that plus 3 speed is a bit too much. I feel the terminators should still be a bit vulnerable while they retreat so maybe a 2.5 speed or something a bit lower than 3.

Didn't realised before. +1 from me.

Black Relic wrote:2: Satchel charge damage modifier toward building_light armor needs to be lowered so they cannot be destroyed by one charge. Id be fine with the charge doing about 450 damage to the gens so the unit wouldn't be wasting their time bashing gens.

It's set to a 0.7 modifier against building_light in the internal build right now. Still allows the satchel to one-shot brood nests, webways and stuff, but leaves generators with a little over 200 hp (with mind blades active).

Black Relic wrote:3: This is probably going to happen anyway. The Cooldown on the terminator retreat needs to go up to maybe 4 minutes 30 seconds.

It's up to 280 seconds (from the time of retreat) in the newer build atm.

Black Relic wrote:But I also think that plus 3 speed is a bit too much. I feel the terminators should still be a bit vulnerable while they retreat so maybe a 2.5 speed or something a bit lower than 3.

Speed increase on retreat? It isn't 3, at least not immediately. And at 12 seconds after retreat, it goes up to +4.25 for all retreating squads I think.

Adeptus Noobus wrote: ... NMs may be heavy infantry but ...

NM's are infantry.


@setup teams.
Going to quote myself and adjust where needed from a long time ago. (adjusted the sniper part)

Dark Riku wrote:Let's ask ourselves what counters suppression teams.
In T1:

• Snipers who do more damage to HI.
• Jump troops who do the same damage to HI and do even more damage to HI when they have power melee like storm boys (or Bloodletters come T2).
• Grenade launcher who deal more damage to HI.
• Thrown grenades who also deal more damage to HI.
• Infiltration which will be a combination of the above weapons.
• Flanking where they receive a bit less damage from "normal arms fire" [piercing_pvp]. But let's be honest here. Flanks are carried out to (force) melee, throw a grenade, etc to force suppression teams off in which case you probably want infantry armor.

In T2:

• Artillery which will deal more damage to HI.

So what is so advantageous about being HI? Being a bit more resistant to small arms fire [piercing_pvp] that doesn't directly counter them in the first place?
You also have to remember that non of the above mentioned counters is any better in dealing with the infantry armored suppression teams who on top of that have more health than their HI counterparts. I left out hero abilities because of the more complex state of those and because I wanted to address the "generic" counters but they too can deal with suppression teams. Like Flesh Hook, Hammer of the Witches, High Powered Shot, Defend, etc.

Dark Riku wrote:
LOTS OF TEXT

NMs are HI. And yes, I think piercing damage resistance alongside vengeance rounds, libby synergy, worship synergy and autocannons mean that they were not in need of a buff. Or at the very least if they were just make it vs melee on retreat, not vs melee full stop.

Noise Marines are HI iirc.

Dark Riku wrote:@setup teams.
Going to quote myself and adjust where needed from a long time ago. (adjusted the sniper part)

Dark Riku wrote:Let's ask ourselves what counters suppression teams.
In T1:

• Snipers who do more damage to HI.
• Jump troops who do the same damage to HI and do even more damage to HI when they have power melee like storm boys (or Bloodletters come T2).
• Grenade launcher who deal more damage to HI.
• Thrown grenades who also deal more damage to HI.
• Infiltration which will be a combination of the above weapons.
• Flanking where they receive a bit less damage from "normal arms fire" [piercing_pvp]. But let's be honest here. Flanks are carried out to (force) melee, throw a grenade, etc to force suppression teams off in which case you probably want infantry armor.

In T2:

• Artillery which will deal more damage to HI.

So what is so advantageous about being HI? Being a bit more resistant to small arms fire [piercing_pvp] that doesn't directly counter them in the first place?
You also have to remember that non of the above mentioned counters is any better in dealing with the infantry armored suppression teams who on top of that have more health than their HI counterparts. I left out hero abilities because of the more complex state of those and because I wanted to address the "generic" counters but they too can deal with suppression teams. Like Flesh Hook, Hammer of the Witches, High Powered Shot, Defend, etc.

I guess this is supporting Caeltos reasoning here? I read your post like this: In addition to all the stuff that already does more damage, we at least want to give them melee resist. Correct me if I am wrong.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Atlas, would you care to elaborate more on the Noise Marines?

The ability canceling is really making some odd behavior happen to some units and it really screws with units that really should otherwise be capable of handling noise marines like shotgun scouts and catachans.

I haven't sen it myself, but I've heard that if NM cancel an ability mid channeling, it sometimes totally disables that ability for the rest of the game. The particular example that got relayed to me was Channeling Runes being cancelled for the rest of the game.

Anyway, with some units that rely on their abilities to stop short range threats, like the ones mentioned above, sometimes just the way abilities interact with each other leaves your unit just sitting there taking damage since they couldn't get the ability out in time.

Combining that with very high damage, range shutdown and the simple anti-melee capability of Chaos at anti-melee makes NM a bit ott imo.

noise marines do need to loose the ability cancel trait

What's the reasoning behind making GK terminators and paladins cost less to reinforce than SM/Chaos terminators? Why do GK Ops get to do so much dps with their shotguns plus get grenades and free invisibility? Not sure how much their grenades cost since there is no information on them in the codex. I'm really discouraged to play against multiple gk's now with their current update. I just had a 3v3 with 3 gk's versus TM, COMM, and Chaos lord. Even though we got the vp lead early (200+ vps vs 72 vps) we still lost. They were able to instantly kill our gens and nodes constantly in tier 2 with their double operative builds. Even though I was able to bash their complete farm in tier one they came back with upgrades on their ops and bc's and just went straight to tier 3 to get their terminators. Even though I killed two terminators models very quickly they were able to retreat away reinforce and come back later with another squad of GK terminators and 1 squad of paladins (that was from one player), so my dread that did some damage to the terminators earlier gets instantly killed by paladins now. The other two GK players went paladins and LR's and I couldn't do a thing because of ops constantly wiping our power and terminators teleporting on my setup teams.

Also if anyone wants to see the replay send me a PM. We had quite the discussion in chat, with one of the GK players even saying that GK's are broken.

Btw, why GK Terminators are extreamly cheap to reinforce? I am not against their overpowering normal Termies but this reinfoce might need to be increased. All factions suffers from economy in late game, and GK shoul suffer eather. So they will think twice before they go with 2 GK Termie ==> Paladins.

DarnedDragoon wrote:What's the reasoning behind making GK terminators and paladins cost less to reinforce than SM/Chaos terminators?

I personally don't know the reasoning behind it. I could think of reasons, but it could literally be anything under the sun. But what's your issue with the fact that it isn't exactly the same as other factions? Do you want all units and factions in the game to be the same?

Why do GK Ops get to do so much dps with their shotguns plus get grenades and free invisibility?

I can take a stab at this one. They lost suppression and jump squads in tier 1. As far as I'm concerned the units are essentially lost forever because they seem to lack utility in other tiers.

I can turn these types of questions around. Why do marines get suppression and jump in tier 1? Why do they get Predator tanks? Why does chaos sorcerer get to teleport and control other people's units? Why does chaos get a land raider that hard-counters all the other land raiders? Why does chaos get an ultimate heavy (great unclean one) where as other factions (except for eldar) don't?

I could go on and on with this.

I just had a 3v3...

There's your problem.

Not saying you shouldn't play 3v3s, but you don't want to draw balance conclusions from them, and you probably shouldn't expect the game to be balanced around that game mode.

I played 3v3 yesterday with GK for the first time and the result?

Well let's just say they are just as overpowered in practice as they seem on paper.

Hellstar wrote:I personally don't know the reasoning behind it. I could think of reasons, but it could literally be anything under the sun. But what's your issue with the fact that it isn't exactly the same as other factions? Do you want all units and factions in the game to be the same?

It's in fact lower cost than other factions, and yes they are basically the same unit type so they should be just as expensive to reinforce.

I can take a stab at this one. They lost suppression and jump squads in tier 1. As far as I'm concerned the units are essentially lost forever because they seem to lack utility in other tiers.

The problem is how do you fight them, they cost less than a jump and a devastator squad so they can afford to buy two. They walk around your army and do lots of damage to your hero/setup teams/scouts with their shot guns. So you have to spend extra to get detection on your scouts, but scouts are the weakest unit in the game and go down easily.

I can turn these types of questions around. Why do marines get suppression and jump in tier 1? Why do they get Predator tanks?

I'll answer the sm questions since I'm a space marine player. They get devastators and assault marines for a need, and to also have different play styles. Although going assault marines is not viable against Grey Knights. SM's also cannot walk through suppression like GK's BC's. I don't know why we get Predators they are pretty useless because of the vehicle pathing problems and the paper mache like armor. They get chased down by paladins just like dreads.

I could go on and on with this.

So go on with it, you haven't convinced me yet.

"I just had a 3v3... "
There's your problem.
Not saying you shouldn't play 3v3s, but you don't want to draw balance conclusions from them, and you probably shouldn't expect the game to be balanced around that game mode.

Sorry no, you always want to ensure team games are balanced as they are the most played game type.

Torpid wrote:I played 3v3 yesterday with GK for the first time and the result?

Well let's just say they are just as overpowered in practice as they seem on paper.

You have the entirety of Grey Knights faction written down on a piece of paper?

On a more serious note. If you're not going to say anything productive, I'd recommend you don't say anything at all. This type of post is about as useful as bucket of sand in the desert. And quite frankly, I'm getting tired of reading this crap. I'm not saying it again.

Also I still don't understand the rationale behind havoc melee resist in t1, it would make more sense in t2

Havocs in their current state make jump units against them a joke, not even talking about instances where heroes attempt to counter them. In T2 Chaos only gets stronger in terms of jump units countering. EVERY hero gets an ability to COMPLETELY (or almost completely) shut down any jump unit after it performed its assault against a squad of havocs. CL - stun, PC - stun, CS - immobilization. In no tier melee resistance on havocs is reasonable. Yes, it is investments but whatever. Before the patch if I did everything right my opponent couldn't force off my havocs with his jump unit. This has to prove something, that they were fine. And I am more than sure that EVERY competent Chaos player can agree. I recently played one game in retail and was so surprised how easily my devs got owned. The patch that made them resistant to melee is a good thing, space marines aren't good at countering jump units. With havocs that is not the thing, in T1 heretics overwhelm any aggressor and pin it down and in T2 there is a great counter to jump units available for every hero. The patch that made havocs resistant to melee is not a good thing. The melee resistance is not to prevent kills on retreat, you can keep the suppression team on the field because of that! And while SM lack good anti-melee tools, Chaos clearly don't. It takes more time for SM players to force off a jump unit hence the more resistant devs are balanced because all this time devs get banged. Havocs remain almost untouched after heretics counter-initiated.

1)SM vs GK is an almost impossible matchup for SM.

Absolutely agree. I play both GK and SM. And when I am against GK as SM it is really hard. And when I am against SM as GK it is really easy.

Sub_Zero wrote:

Also I still don't understand the rationale behind havoc melee resist in t1, it would make more sense in t2

Havocs in their current state make jump units against them a joke, not even talking about instances where heroes attempt to counter them. In T2 Chaos only gets stronger in terms of jump units countering. EVERY hero gets an ability to COMPLETELY (or almost completely) shut down any jump unit after it performed its assault against a squad of havocs. CL - stun, PC - stun, CS - immobilization. In no tier melee resistance on havocs is reasonable. Yes, it is investments but whatever. Before the patch if I did everything right my opponent couldn't force off my havocs with his jump unit. This has to prove something, that they were fine. And I am more than sure that EVERY competent Chaos player can agree. I recently played one game in retail and was so surprised how easily my devs got owned. The patch that made them resistant to melee is a good thing, space marines aren't good at countering jump units. With havocs that is not the thing, in T1 heretics overwhelm any aggressor and pin it down and in T2 there is a great counter to jump units available for every hero. The patch that made havocs resistant to melee is not a good thing. The melee resistance is not to prevent kills on retreat, you can keep the suppression team on the field because of that! And while SM lack good anti-melee tools, Chaos clearly don't. It takes more time for SM players to force off a jump unit hence the more resistant devs are balanced because all this time devs get banged. Havocs remain almost untouched after heretics counter-initiated.

Exactly. And there's bloodletters, which are, with the exception of genestealers, the best unit for counter-initiation come T2. They are just insanely tough - how can you shoot down the tics that are worshipping to heal them if you have to spend ages shooting the havoc because your jump squad can't force it off fast enough due to melee resist and all those stuns that chaos have?

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Noise Marines are HI iirc.

For some reason I was confused. They are infantry but have HI armor. Late night posting My bad.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:I guess this is supporting Caeltos reasoning here?

Yes, this is supporting Caeltos' reasoning for the most part.
I personally would like to try out melee resistance for havocs on retreat only or in a reduced state because of the Chaos possible compositions.

How "useful" is the skyleap ability for the autarch really? In the rare instances you actually see an Autarch, I hardly see the Skyleap aspect really played with.

Atlas wrote:How "useful" is the skyleap ability for the autarch really? In the rare instances you actually see an Autarch, I hardly see the Skyleap aspect really played with.

You're basically asking how useful are the bombs that pre-cede an autarch call in. In which case the answer is... rarely worth 150 red. I think the red cost could be reduced tbh. Obviously they were far too strong in retail. But right now I don't think the very meh damage and the brief stun warrants 150 red... So I definitely am getting the autarch for herself not her bombs.

And by the way, I use the autarch in about 50% of the games that last longer than 15minutes when I 1v1 with eldar. Just saying that as quite a few people commented on how they don't see anyone else doing it but were shocked at how often I used her - obviously, given that I use her that much, I don't think she herself is UP.

Do the grenade call in's kill a garrisoned unit still?

DarnedDragoon wrote:It's in fact lower cost than other factions, and yes they are basically the same unit type so they should be just as expensive to reinforce.

You seem to have a very limited view of what constitutes balance. Have you ever considered that different factions might have different reinforcement costs for similar or same unit types for good reasons? One reason might be compensation for something lacking in the faction, or compensation for something another faction gets. There could be a whole host of reasons I could fathom.

If you say that reinforcement costs should be the same for same unit types, what else should be the same? Weapons? Unit stats? Everything else?

I'm not saying there is a good reason for the different reinforcement costs, because I don't know. But neither do you. The difference between us is, you have a very limited, dogmatic view of what balance is and how it should be achieved. I at least understand that there *could* be a good reason for it.

Look, for all I know the balance in this mod is shit, and Caeltos is an idiot. But if that is the case, it certainly isn't because different factions are different. It certainly isn't because of your view that all units of a similar type across all factions should be the same.

Sorry no, you always want to ensure team games are balanced as they are the most played game type.

Well I don't know what the official position is, but common sense dictates that balance should flow from the bottom up, not top down. Balance should therefore start at the most basic fundamental level. If it can't be had there, it can't be had anywhere else.

If I were betting in Vegas, I'd bet that you should expect to wait a long time for ensured balance in team games.

My only problems with the opperatives right now is their low cost allowing grey knights to feild more troops easier or just more oeratives, that they seem to mow through squads of low health ranged unit which wasn't a problem the grey knight add to deal with before and that they really punish slight moment of inatention with their stun grenades. Still I wouldn't say they are hard to deal with since I will just take an AOE weapon and destroy them but they are annoying. In the end it's a bit too early to make a proper opinion on them.

And for something that doesn't really have to do with balance, I'm wondering if opperative shouldn't end up replacing storm troopers since I've never seen more than of this squad on the field at the same time ever since the update.

Finally to take the discussion away from Space Marines and Grey Knight I'm going to ask why has the neurothrope lost it's synapse aura. Hell I would have loved for them to gain an healing aura even at a cost increase so that I had an other option to heal carnifexes in the field beside a squishy 400 req zoanthrope.

Because you should be building zoanthropes in like every game, they are that good.

One more quick comment on GK: Even with the swap of purgs and inties for ops, I still run at least 2 IST and usually even 3.

The "common" build order I ran during the vods was:
Start IST - Strike - IST - IST - Ops - Node - usually a BC upgrade - Gens

It's not like IST became useless.

I still think Moar Dakka probably needs to go to 100 red imo. I'm still iffy on FtE being 50 red too. Since FC players normally just bank it till they can get assault terminators I guess you don't see it THAT much but still, in 1v1s I think that could be pretty stronk.

Hellstar wrote: You seem to have a very limited view of what constitutes balance. Have you ever considered that different factions might have different reinforcement costs for similar or same unit types for good reasons? One reason might be compensation for something lacking in the faction, or compensation for something another faction gets. There could be a whole host of reasons I could fathom.

Chaos terminators and space marine terminators have similar reinforcement costs, they are two different factions. You haven't made a strong case why paladins and gk terminators shouldn't get reinforcement cost increase, they are both in many ways stronger than chaos or space marine terminators. One of the biggest is you don't need red for them, their melee charge, withdraw ability, and health. If anything they should be more expensive to reinforce, because they shouldn't be losing any models due to their health and withdraw ability.

If you say that reinforcement costs should be the same for same unit types, what else should be the same? Weapons? Unit stats? Everything else?

Lets slow it down there Hellstar, increasing reinforcement cost is a good start.

I'm not saying there is a good reason for the different reinforcement costs, because I don't know.

So why are you arguing with me?

"But neither do you."

Well that is why I was asking: "What's the reasoning behind making GK terminators and paladins cost less to reinforce than SM/Chaos terminators?"

"The difference between us is, you have a very limited, dogmatic view of what balance is and how it should be achieved. I at least understand that there *could* be a good reason for it."

There are many differences between us I'm sure. "Dogmatic" huh? Well it's hard to argue with absurdity, but lets give it a try. How do you know my views on the entire subject of balance? How are they dogmatic? I have simply asked a question why and gave the reasoning for my question. How exactly are you contributing?

"Look, for all I know the balance in this mod is shit, and Caeltos is an idiot. "

I don't think anyone, who is a reasonable or sensible person, who continuously plays the Elite mod would ever think this. You are being ridiculous.

"But if that is the case, it certainly isn't because different factions are different. It certainly isn't because of your view that all units of a similar type across all factions should be the same."

Yep never said the mod was shit and Caeltos was an idiot because factions were different or because "[it is my] view that all units of a similar type across all factions should be the same."

"Well I don't know what the official position is, but common sense dictates that balance should flow from the bottom up, not top down. Balance should therefore start at the most basic fundamental level. If it can't be had there, it can't be had anywhere else."

It doesn't matter, team games need to be balanced as much as 1vs1's. It's obvious that the modding team knows this already and your point of view doesn't make a difference.

If I were betting in Vegas, I'd bet that you should expect to wait a long time for ensured balance in team games.

You know I'm not making demands or ultimatums, I am pretty patient, and I trust that the modding team will considering the voices of the Elite community. I mean they made a forum after all. So you can calm down Hellstar.

Atlas I don't know who've been playing but I've never seen anyone play more than one IST after the opperatives were added. What do they do that opperatives don't do. Not speed, not dammage. Yes thay can disrupt better with granade launchers but it's not like the opperatives are bad at it what with ifiltration and stun nades. The only thing they do that they ops don't is repairing and detecting but you don't need 3 squads to do those things.

As for getting a zoan every game... yes, always get a unit that vunareble to jump troops or units in retreat, that gets one shot by comissars, that cost 400 req 500 power and that loose it's efectiveness vs terminators. Seriously I'm not asking for the world I,m just asking for an other way to heal a carnifex that doesn't involve a fragile unit or having to bring it back all the way to base. It doesn't even have to be a good heal just something!

Metal C0Mmander wrote:Comments.

Well comparing 1 to 1 ofc ops are superior to ists. That's like saying no one should build scouts because tacs can out dps them, have HI and they scale better. What ists give you over ops is map control, for cheaper and faster. I can have 3 ists on the field before I can physically even purchase my first ops squad.

I played in purely 1v1s. In teams, you can probably get away with just the 1 ist squad and load up on ops to your hearts content. Teams is pretty trivial in that case because your teammates can carry you economically and in fights.

As for zoans, be glad it gives you a free army-wide regen at all. Not every faction has that after all, much less on a unit that can shoot back. As for the costs of the unit and being 1-shot by commissars, I think its current cost is very justifiable and the only way that commissar can execute your zoanthrope is if you let him get close enough with its shield down.

Other than that, play HT and put down a Broodnest.

DarnedDragoon wrote:You haven't made a strong case why paladins and gk terminators shouldn't get reinforcement cost increase

That's because I didn't try to make a case. My point was, you didn't make a case why they *should* get reinforcement cost increase. Your notion seems to be "because same unit types across all factions should be the same." Well, that's not a case.

If you say that reinforcement costs should be the same for same unit types, what else should be the same? Weapons? Unit stats? Everything else?

Lets slow it down there Hellstar, increasing reinforcement cost is a good start.

Why slow it down? Why stop at reinforcement cost? Be consistent.

I'm not saying there is a good reason for the different reinforcement costs, because I don't know.

So why are you arguing with me?

Because you don't know either, and I'm pointing that out.

How do you know my views on the subject of balance? How are they dogmatic?

Because of this quote:

...and yes they are basically the same unit type so they should be just as expensive to reinforce.

"Look, for all I know the balance in this mod is shit, and Caeltos is an idiot. "

I don't think anyone, who is a reasonable or sensible person, who continuously plays the Elite mod would ever think this. You are being ridiculous.

Why on earth did you think I attributed that to you?

Yep never said the mod was shit and Caeltos was an idiot...

Again, for the reading-comprehension challenged, I didn't attribute that to you.

It's obvious that the modding team knows this already and your point of view doesn't make a difference.

It's not obvious to me that they know it, and I doubt either of our points of view make a difference.

So you can calm down Hellstar.

I'm already as calm as a cucumber thank you very much.