Dawn of War Codex

I don't know, these changes look like they will make Sniper and to a larger extent Ranger plays not particularly worthwhile. Scouts will have what, 180 damage spread over 13 seconds instead of the 170 over 12 they have now, which is alright. Their upfront damage is less which seems to be counter-intuitive to what a sniper's role is. But regardless, their damage stays pretty much the same for the most part. Rangers on the other hand who do 160 every 7.5 seconds will do 80 every 5. So the new Rangers will get three shots in the time current Rangers take to fire two shots. Doing the calculations current Rangers do 320 damage every 15 seconds, whereas new Rangers will deal 240 every 15 seconds. The new ones are supposed to be more useful at dealing with heavy infantry what with the proposed damage modifier against it, yes? But even with the 1.3 damage modifier they'll still do less damage to heavy infantry, 320 every 15 seconds for current Rangers compared to 312 for new Rangers. This is just a net nerf and Rangers won't be worth the cost,especially given that they require their upgrade to function to their full potential. If they issue is spamming them why not just limit the number of snipers to 1 or 2, as opposed to making them useless? Along with that potentially give every model in the squad a sniper rifle and divide the current damage dealt by sniper rifles by 3? So every Ranger model does 53.3 damage per shot, and the equivalent for scouts (the sergeant would still his default gun for sake of ease). This would make Rangers and Scout snipers more of a potential drain on your economy as well, because you would have to replace the models to get the full effect of the squad, you wouldn't be able to run around with just the sniper model anymore. I don't know, these new changes aren't so much a re-work as they are making sniper play redundant. If the issue is spamming, surely the logical response is to just limit them to one or two per player.

Lt. Ekul wrote:I don't know, these changes look like they will make Sniper and to a larger extent Ranger plays not particularly worthwhile. Scouts will have what, 180 damage spread over 13 seconds instead of the 170 over 12 they have now, which is alright. Their upfront damage is less which seems to be counter-intuitive to what a sniper's role is. But regardless, their damage stays pretty much the same for the most part. Rangers on the other hand who do 160 every 7.5 seconds will do 80 every 5. So the new Rangers will get three shots in the time current Rangers take to fire two shots. Doing the calculations current Rangers do 320 damage every 15 seconds, whereas new Rangers will deal 240 every 15 seconds. The new ones are supposed to be more useful at dealing with heavy infantry what with the proposed damage modifier against it, yes? But even with the 1.3 damage modifier they'll still do less damage to heavy infantry, 320 every 15 seconds for current Rangers compared to 312 for new Rangers. This is just a net nerf and Rangers won't be worth the cost,especially given that they require their upgrade to function to their full potential. If they issue is spamming them why not just limit the number of snipers to 1 or 2, as opposed to making them useless? Along with that potentially give every model in the squad a sniper rifle and divide the current damage dealt by sniper rifles by 3? So every Ranger model does 53.3 damage per shot, and the equivalent for scouts (the sergeant would still his default gun for sake of ease). This would make Rangers and Scout snipers more of a potential drain on your economy as well, because you would have to replace the models to get the full effect of the squad, you wouldn't be able to run around with just the sniper model anymore. I don't know, these new changes aren't so much a re-work as they are making sniper play redundant. If the issue is spamming, surely the logical response is to just limit them to one or two per player.

My thoughts exactly even though I can imagine players trying to spam setup teams against eldar if rangers are capped capped to 1 and 2 is already kind of an annoyance. This is tricky.

But to be honest I'm ok with testing this change but I'm not ok with nerfing rangers and not scouts.

Cap a Tier 1 unit is admitting we all, modders and players, have fail.

That is the worst thing we can ever do to a game.

Luckly we are not at that point, don't even suggest it.

Can we set up a poll to more organize the opinions here?

ChrisNihilus wrote:Cap a Tier 1 unit is admitting we all, modders and players, have fail.

That is the worst thing we can ever do to a game.

I suppose you don't count the painboy as a T1 unit then?

That's a subcommander, design to be unique from the beginning.

Capping a squad that you can buy freely just because we can't balance it and/or make it fun to play with, it's very different.

If snipers have to fire more often now, it might make sense to slightly reduce setup/tear down times, because any time you setup is a bit of a risk.

I'm seriously failing to see how the new sniper scouts are going to be useful vs nids in any way at all, with synapse+toxin tacs/adrenal glands they won't even one shot gaunts. Not only that, snipers are a massive investment that delays t1.5 units and wargear (and things like power sword/bionics are very useful vs nids) that are needed to help maintain map control and win engagements, especially when it comes to defending power farms. Shotguns (or a sergeant) seem to be far more useful in this specific instance, costing less, having decent scaling potential, and helping the SM player's attempts to compete with the strong nid eco (shotguns provide control, when you control your opponent, he cannot bleed you while you bleed him, thus the eco difference).

The usefulness of Snipers with this change is that they are no longer a lone unit that you send to kill models and retreat, a unit indipendent from the rest of your army, but it's something to keep near your army to weaken the enemy, force him to react and then additional dps for your army when the battle start.

The point is that they don't need a high burst damage to kill enemy models in one shot, that is what makes them annoying, but they need to have long range with a fair dps to be a useful addition to the army.

It change how we use snipers, and i like it.

Radio the Forest wrote:I'm seriously failing to see how the new sniper scouts are going to be useful vs nids in any way at all, with synapse+toxin tacs/adrenal glands they won't even one shot gaunts. Not only that, snipers are a massive investment that delays t1.5 units and wargear (and things like power sword/bionics are very useful vs nids) that are needed to help maintain map control and win engagements, especially when it comes to defending power farms. Shotguns (or a sergeant) seem to be far more useful in this specific instance, costing less, having decent scaling potential, and helping the SM player's attempts to compete with the strong nid eco (shotguns provide control, when you control your opponent, he cannot bleed you while you bleed him, thus the eco difference).

Synapse and the health of hormagaunt/termagants are being changed.

ChrisNihilus wrote:The usefulness of Snipers with this change is that they are no longer a lone unit that you send to kill models and retreat, a unit indipendent from the rest of your army, but it's something to keep near your army to weaken the enemy, force him to react and then additional dps for your army when the battle start.

The point is that they don't need a high burst damage to kill enemy models in one shot, that is what makes them annoying, but they need to have long range with a fair dps to be a useful addition to the army.

It change how we use snipers, and i like it.

But that's not how they work now. Decent Ranger play is still in support of your army; snipers are a million times more effective when used with the rest of your forces. And why is capping them such a ludicrous idea? If their main problem is spam why is placing a limit on them out of the question? I still think that these changes are going to make sniper plays redundant, given their strengths lie in economic damage through bleeding models. These changes just make them worse at bleeding normal and heavy infantry.

Me after reading some of the posts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIO-foQBedc

Joke aside. I'll get back on this topic soon.

Caeltos wrote:Synapse and the health of hormagaunt/termagants are being changed.

In that case then, I'll have to experiment with the new snipers. I'd imagine they'd do quite decently in conjunction with the MCB for triggering syanpse bombs, especially with the recent warrior brood health nerf. To quote the Three Stoges, "We shall see what we shall see."

Honestly this change needs to be played, and played, and playeddd before we can give a remotely informed opinion on it as it's so drastic.

All I'll say (fer now) is it's a good idea in principle to cut the "anti-fun" nature of playing against snipers, and if this can be accomplished while keeping them as a relevant unit then I'm all for it.

Sniper 'spam' (2 Rangers or 3 Scouts) is really strong in the hands of the right player in big gamemodes because of their nature to deal high burst dps without getting shot back much, if at all. 'Spam' isn't really right for Eldar using 2 Rangers, but you know what I'm talking about.

Also you're right snipers are less relevant against Tyranids right now so if that can be changed I'm all for it. Worth noting it'll be harder for those races to counter Zoanthropes and both don't exactly struggle to control Tyranids in T1 with suppression teams, which the Zoanthrope counters.

but based on those numbers i fail to see how the snipers would be better at bleeding infantry races, they flat out lose dps against infantry with the proposed changes , and they lose alot of the bite behind their spike damage potential.

most of the time you have to fall back after the first shots anyway or risk being chased down. so having a faster reload time wont change that fact unless you have a safe zone to fall back in and set up.



and snipers were pretty useful against nids in that you could soften the synapse creatures up a bit , before the zerg blob over ran your position.

Scout snipers were mega-useful vs nids before, wouldn't like to see that changed...

I don't like the idea of snipers becoming even more useful against heavy armor and super heavy armor. I think that bonus damage is completely unnecessary. Snipers should require micro as a payoff for kills from distance, constantly repositioning so they don't get caught. Giving them bonus damage against HI and SHI just means they will be even more relevant in the late game and IMO is an overall buff.

The damage bonus vs commanders I can understand in a 1v1 perspective, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it will absolutely ruin competitive team games.

I think that Apo and PC are going to be extremely annoying to deal with if you opt for snipers. More shots = more randomness. It can happen so all 3 shots will be spent on different models. And here you heal your troops and nullify that. PC can use the ability and worship is always functional. Certainly it will be an interesting experiment but it is sad that now there will be no more 1 shot = 1 kill action anymore (omitting rare exceptions). But maybe it is more balanced this way. Gotta test it.

I'm no statistician but surely more shots = less randomness and more predictable averages?

I'm no statistician but surely more shots = less randomness and more predictable averages?

Cheah18 wrote:I'm no statistician but surely more shots = less randomness and more predictable averages?

Not necessarily, the number of shots required to get a model pick will vary a lot more with a higher number of weak shots. Eg rangers vs shoota boyz