Dawn of War Codex

Eldar has fleet of foot. That's an ability that lets you cover half a lane in less than 10 seconds. They are mobile hence why I say whole army since I assume that you built a webway gate in base as well to do Eldar stuff all over the map since they can quickly and easily move to and fro. It's not that difficult and I see it as simple macro.

A smart Eldar will try his best to not make a gate obvious. I've lost and won games where that was 1 gate I did not know was there simply because of how it was used. rather than using it to flank, he used it to set up ambushes or commit back caps using stealthy and sneaky characters such as Rangers and position them so that their back are facing their side of the map rather than ours (ie Argus Desert Gate, Eldar player in the South capping contested VP with their backs looking towards Northern side of the map)

I use all gates, especially the warlock in the middle of combat or after because of how it grants Health Boost, Farseer grants Infiltration for -20% damage and WSE gives Energy which I mainly do to keep spamming that FoF into Nades or Ranger Knockback etc.

If balance was to be taken into account, they'd be having 1v1's. In 2v2's and 3v3's, 1 player can dick around and do stupid crap which I've always done. I've literally joined random 2v2's and 3v3's to try uncommon builds like double KCSM into letters and raptors as a Chaos Lord in the past only to have my teammate constantly provide AV for me since I'm always Req starved and lack proper AV. In a 1v1 and in a serious match, I won't be doing that since it's asking for a quick transport or walker that can easily screw with my power over time. 2v2's and 3v3's add too many variables and factors to get an accurate reading and makes answering the question, 'Is this balanced?' harder.

Ace of Swords wrote:It's not, simply because the player who is gonna throw more than 4 gates up is gonna have red and will start to have popcap problems, which means he's not gonna spam whatever global he has, he's not reaching for another eldrich, and most importantly he isn't getting that 7th or 8th unit or avatar out.

I also need to say here not everyone who can hit the popcap will want to (too many units to micro effectively). So the argument here is a kind of "illusory safety" in that "omg I hope that limits on red and popcap are going to stop the Webway Gate Apocalypse from occurring!" -

4 gates is plenty - what my teams do is plunk 2 gates for our 3 bases (in between the bases so either side can use it, i.e. middle player can choose to go left or right), and then 2 more (one far left, one far right). The mobility this achieves is FAR less than an Ork Trukk, I'm going to say (and far cheaper, and reinforces on the spot).

And, again, detectors. A detected gate is going to be destroyed and can't run away. You guys talk like there's forests of gates all over at the end of every Eldar team game, so many that regular units can't walk in a straight line.

Furthermore, it's not like your own army is doing NOTHING. If you've taken two of the VPs and the points are counting down, the utility of the gates is going to be far more limited because what does it matter where the gates are when you already know where I need to be?

Discreet wrote:A smart Eldar will try his best to not make a gate obvious. I've lost and won games where that was 1 gate I did not know was there simply because of how it was used.

(a) yes I (like everybody else) try to put my gates in nonobvious places... because once they're detected it's wasted. Does that make it undetectable? a sergeant scout squad (with a very high default move speed!) running around the map won't find it?

(b) Is this a 1v1? it sounds like a 1v1. 1v1 I've found actually forces you to work over a larger map area than in 2v2s and 3v3s, counterintuitively. But then there all the gates are your own so not relevant to what I'm saying here. And, again, this is an "experience" issue yes? Now that you know it can happen, you're gonna look for it and kill that gate. Are you saying that even though you know of it you can't stop it? That's the criteria for "OP-ness". Here it sounds like you were defeated by something you hadn't expected. But you know it now.

(c) setting up ambushes etc. there's other ways to get around too (Group Teleport for one). and you mentioned yourself fleet (dont' even need to talk about global fleet from WLK... that can move an army pretty fast).

mobility is meant to be one of the Eldar advantages, because it makes up for weaknesses elsewhere (bleed, fragility). a lot of what I'm hearing seems to be forgetting that.

Balance - yes balance is really damn hard. But again if 1v1 balance is What Really Matters then this change which only affects 2v2/3v3 shouldn't even matter, no? But here we are, if it comes to "give the Eldar something" the sky is gonna fall.

Discreet wrote: I've literally joined random 2v2's and 3v3's to try uncommon builds like double KCSM into letters and raptors as a Chaos Lord in the past only to have my teammate constantly provide AV for me since I'm always Req starved and lack proper AV.

yes that is true, BUT is this what was happening during the faction wars? were the players doing crazy trollbuilds etc.? I've watched all the Eldar ones and they seem to have been taken fairly seriously. They weren't "controlled" for players and many other factors so not really "scientific" (and sampling size isn't right, but for that many games it would probably take half a year), but again, I'm saying the faction war results aren't "meaningless".

What this change would do - in a very slight way - increase the synergies of Eldar players teaming together, such that dual/triple Eldar player teams work better. That seems fine. Because heterogeneity has its advantages too (Eldar supporting less-squishy teammates in a push works very well).

I'm not suggesting Gates should interconnect with Rav tunnels

Please stop this "Sky is gonna fall" thing. I have plenty of sympathy with the eldar race but this buff is not needed at all.

Tsototar wrote:
I also need to say here not everyone who can hit the popcap will want to (too many units to micro effectively). So the argument here is a kind of "illusory safety" in that "omg I hope that limits on red and popcap are going to stop the Webway Gate Apocalypse from occurring!" -

This was a funny point. So, because same players have terrible micro that means that the downside to webway gates that is pop-cost is irrelevant to their balance? That's not how balance works...

Tsototar wrote:What this change would do - in a very slight way - increase the synergies of Eldar players teaming together, such that dual/triple Eldar player teams work better. That seems fine. Because heterogeneity has its advantages too

This however is an argument I could get behind.

Tsototar wrote:What this change would do - in a very slight way - increase the synergies of Eldar players teaming together, such that dual/triple Eldar player teams work better. That seems fine. Because heterogeneity has its advantages too

This however is an argument I could get behind.

I wouldn't considering how imba enough is the synergy between singularities,eldrich storms, wailing dooms,nades, autarch drops and warp throw/doom/guide/levitation field/wse nades/entrangling web/phase shift/time field already is.

And there are probably things that I've forgot to mentition.

I've always said this, if there is a race that can completely turn the tides of a game (even more so in team games) that's eldar, they have an extreme amount of late game squad wiping abilities, CC and cap denying, they don't really need anymore synergy between them.

A) I mean how their used, not how their placed. For example, if an enemy is fortified in the contested VP and you appear from behind them, it's obvious that there is a gate there. However, if you only gated a single Ranger behind them to Kinetic Shot a set-up team, and bring them that much closer to your army, then you can trick to enemy into thinking you simply infiltrated your rangers behind them etc

B) As stated in (A), an Eldar who uses and places his gates discreetly(no pun intended) and effectively will be able to mask the presence of the gate itself from 1v1 to 3v3. Other than that, it sounds like you're talking down on me.

C) Hmm?

Ace of Swords wrote:I wouldn't considering how imba enough is the synergy between singularities,eldrich storms, wailing dooms,nades, autarch drops and warp throw/doom/guide/levitation field/wse nades/entrangling web/phase shift/time field already is.

And there are probably things that I've forgot to mentition.

I've always said this, if there is a race that can completely turn the tides of a game (even more so in team games) that's eldar, they have an extreme amount of late game squad wiping abilities, CC and cap denying, they don't really need anymore synergy between them.

That's all late game though and surely there must be some additional benefit to playing a 2v2 or 3v3 in which synergies between two different races are exploited to create a better team. It seems that with additional variety of units one side will have a natural advantage and I suppose that's one way to argue that same-race-synergies should be encouraged (even though a while back I was against such).

IMO the race synergies are already given by the fact that other races can use the Eldars gates.

Removed some posts. Carry on.

i think the webway gates are only slightly too powerful right now.

what i would do:
add a req/power cost alongside the red cost,

OR

up the red cost to 100, 75 is still pretty cheap.

OR

add the infiltration as an upgrade for the gate, so when you place it down it only costs red but isnt infiltrated, basically making it an easier to spot ravener tunnel. also perhaps reduce its max health by default and the upgrade that infiltrates it brings it up to its current health values? this way they need to invest a bit more to get that extra mobility
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on another note, somewhat related to this discussion; i think that some globals should be tweaked aswell, specifically some of the warlocks globals, things like distort field from the warlock is incredibly cheap and i feel like it makes the unit invulnerable to ranged fire, from when i've played against it. and its usually put on bashees, and i pretty much always play chaos/SM/GK sooooo yea..... fun times.
also swift movement is also incredibly cheap for what it is, a speed buff for EVERYONE on your team, making it incredibly powerful in teamgames. ive seen that being used with veil of time from a libby on shees using fleet of foot, couldnt even see their legs moving, chased down my whole army and bled me like a pig.