Vanguard Power Fist

[saltychipmunk]

purifiers have a power melee / melee heavy setup with more hp and a much better chase potential.

I don't think purifiers ever killed a vehicle lol

terminators can jump and melee against vehicles and infantry alike

Yeah, and that marks a death sentence for terminators, beside their dps isn't high enough to kill a dred or a microed transport/tank, only ass termies have a chance, but even those get rekt by mok csm,blood letters, shees etc.

banshees have both damage types (but are admittedly fragile)

Shees don't have a jump pack and FoF reduces their damage, and since the walker changes they can't solo melee walkers anymore

raptors have the fist in t2.

But they get raped by any dedicated melee, asm still have a chance between merciless strike and their jump distruption

and vanilla asm gain access to av and power melee as well.

A single model with power melee and an extra cost for a melta that will never solo a vehicle, that functions as support for further AV, which also requires more micro than simply point and click once.

So it seems to me that there are plenty of examples of units doing similar things , some doing more of one thing and less of another true but there are still examples.

and what exactly would having the fist replace some other than the hammer add besides them maintaining the hammers characteristics ?

None of your examples are even close to a unit that can potentially solo other dedicated melee squads, is an hard counter to setup teams, can retreat has power melee on all models + heavy melee and is "cheap" to reinforce.

So no, I don't want more dumb units that can do everything and better than dedicated units with a purpose.

well my purifiers have, And technically all these units are t2 units being compared to a t3 unit. but that is beside the point , these are all fair retorts to my probes. So basically the main issue is that you dont want a jump unit to also be a competent all in one unit . ok I can get behind that.

[Tex]

Vanguards supported by apo, (especially with his advanced regen aura) can certainly take on walkers.

I wouldn't advise rolling around with this as your main source of AV, but the amount of regen they get in combat stacks up quite nicely with that aura. They solo'd my damn wraithlord like that once... this was of course before melee resistance... but the point is my wraithlord was unable to kill a model, thus they are able to do the job.

[Dark Riku]

Tex, you say that this was before the walker melee resistance and it was your walker all by itself versus a decked out hero and a T3 squad that costs a shitton... I think you can see how this example doesn't bear much weight

[Tex]

Actually I was pounding the vanguards with all the ranged firepower I had in that area of the map but it didn't matter. They get damage resist when in melee combat as well as increased regen. Put the apo heal and aura on top of that and my walker literally did nothing to them.

[It was noisy playing apo, and he, in my opinion, is a more versatile apo player in regards to being able to pull off different builds, whereas you are probably a more efficient apo player inside of standard builds.]

Yes, melee resist on walkers makes a huge difference, but doesn't it stand to reason that in my example, melee resist or no, the vanguards can still kill the walker while taking minimal or no losses?

[Dark Riku]

To start out with: I don't believe your statement one bit. Just to be sure I did a lab (2.3.0): vangaurds with PF versus a dreadnought while the vanguards are supported by an apo healing and the advanced healing aura ability given by the Armor of the Apothecarion.
The vanguards got killed every time. They had no chance. You even say other things were firing at the vanguard in the meantime,
I can't imagine them doing anything but die. (Feel free to supply the replay where we can discover what really happened.)

--> Vanguards supported by Apo with the advanced regen aura can certainly NOT take on walkers.


Your reasoning makes no sense at all either even if this combo would work. Just because unit X with support from commander X can do whatever the task at hand is doesn't mean that unit X can do so on its own.

I know that you probably know this but being in melee gives you ranged damage reduction, not damage reduction overall.
Thank you for the opinion about Noisy and me? I don't see how this helps the discussion in any way.

To answer on your last question: No it doesn't stand to reason because that example can never happen.

Some perspective:
PF Vanguard 730/135 (T3) - AoA 150/30 - IME 100/20 = 1030/185 T3
Wraithlord 450/100 T2
And the wraithlord still wins, ... let that sink in for a moment.

[Tex]

Well I remember it Riku. Perhaps Noisy was using advanced heal for a period of time. I'll ask him if he has that game saved.

[Dark Riku]

You may think that is what happened, but what really happened will be something else entirely. The wraithlord was probably already low on HP, there may have even been other units dealing damage or there were buffs(AoD)/debuffs present. Remembering correctly is something that most people can't do really well. That is also why eye-witnesses are almost never used to back anything up.

The advanced healing will be active for as long as the apo has energy, I assume it was active the entire fight just as in my labs.

[Cheah18]

Psychology student weigh in: Memory is very fallible even if we feel our particular memory is 100% accurate.

Not taking sides, impartial info