Dawn of War Codex

Fire Dragons are pretty great imo, especially in the hands of a good Warlock player (see HansMoleman). Using Swift Movement, Cloaking Shroud, and Enhance can bring down a vehicle, especially transports, in seconds. Especially if you can catch your opponent without detection. Even if your opponent has detection, having that few seconds he doesn't know you're coming makes a huge difference in how he'll react.

Kvn wrote:Warpsiders have the same issue. Roughly 900/100+ spent to counter a transport at around half the cost.

You can use the WSE call-in global to spend only 20 power on the snare. For other commanders it can be an issue though. The spiders provide good utility though, even after the vehicle is killed.

For the Farseer, you can pop the Webway's Wind Walk and move in for the kill and give the Dragons Guide. Same idea for detection as above. And deter anything that might tie them up with Shees + Doom or something. It's harder to react to if it's a flank and your opponent's units aren't in the ideal position.

Kvn wrote:Issue with Rangers does in fact stand. They announce for the other player to hear when and where they're placing down their holo fields. Even if the opponent doesn't have detection, they'll have reasonably good idea of where the field is, thus letting them know where your Dragons are likely to be, thus defeating the purpose of using the field.

The Holofield lasts 30 seconds, so you don't have to put it down as soon as you see your opponent. Place it down in anticipation of the vehicle's movement. Even if it's slightly off, you could end up with a flank instead of just a straight on surprise attack.

And after the vehicle is dead, your Fire Dragons probably won't be your opponent's top priority target which might allow them to deal some damage to infantry. Their weapons might be short range, but they have great (melta) damage against all targets. And even if you really don't want to use them in fights, you can send them to bash power.

Dark Riku wrote:1) I do read the stuff you write, now read what I write.
Nobody else but Caeltos can tell you why they are designed the way they are. The rest of us can only make a guess.
Fire Dragons do put pressure on a vehicle without another investment. It's just your opinion that they seem not to.

Then I suppose it was a mistake to ask seeing as it's a lot of speculation with little to no visual evidence one way or the other outside of our own personal experiences. I have yet to see Dragons do well, but others have yet to see them do poorly apparently, so I give up. I apologize for wasting everyone's time on this front.

Dark Riku wrote:2) The only ones announcing their infiltration to the whole world are scouts. Rangers do no such thing to my recollection.

Unless it's been changed in the most recent updates, Rangers will announce "no unfriendly eye shall see" or something along those lines when laying down their Holo Fields. They use the same line when infiltrating themselves, but the opponent doesn't hear it.

Dark Riku wrote:3-4) Then don't spend so much to counter a single transport. Buy units appropriately.

I would point out that this is kind of the argument I've been making, but never mind.

Dark Riku wrote:5) Get your definitions straight then. A well microed unit means no or close to no model losses, no misplays, etc.
How exactly does a terminator squad counters crowd control? Stuns or snares. I would be very happy to know how to pull that one off.

I wouldn't say that. Heretics and Hormagaunts, even when well microed, will lose a fair number of models thanks to being so squishy. Almost all Eldar units are in the same boat. Terminators aren't affected by most forms of crowd control, being immune to suppression, weapon knockdown, and having a lot of hp. Obviously snares and such work very well against them, but so long as they haven't been overextended, that isn't typically a death sentence since they have so much hp.

Dark Riku wrote:6) What part of their design screams: "I'm supposed to lose models, it's the only way my unit is balanced." No part of them says that.
Yes, any squad loses models in combat, deal with it. It's not bleeding you dry, unless you use them wrong. I.e. not well microed.

The part where they are designed to get up close and personal with fairly low hit points. That's the theme of Eldar. Glass cannon units that deal high dps, have some pretty nasty combos they can pull of, but are balanced out by being super fragile and losing a fair number of models in even winning engagements. Bleeding does not inherently equal being a bad unit, which I think is where this miscommunication lies. When I said the Seer Council models die off relatively quickly, it wasn't saying that they were bad or that they needed to survive longer, but was simply to point out that they're not meant to be able to stand up to concentrated fire the way something like Terminators or Nobz can. That doesn't mean I'm saying they're a bad or flawed unit as they're ones that I use quite frequently and enjoy very much.

Dark Riku wrote:7) You haven't literally said Eldar units are bad. But all of your statement point in that direction.
"Well microed X doesn't lose models but well microed X from Eldar does." Does that seem unbiased to you?

Same as above.

Dark Riku wrote:9) So much resources? Have you even taken a look at their cost?
Because they are better suited for the situation. They work in better synergy with your current army, etc.

I'll crunch the numbers then.

Brightlance GWT - 315/30 including both the cost of the new squad as well as the upgrade
Fire Dragons - 360/30 + 85/15 for Exarch leading to 445/45
Wraithguard - 400/60 + 65/15 for Spiritseer leading to 465/75
Falcon - 360/90 assuming we're only looking at T2 and don't include the T3 shield
Wraithlord - 425/100 + 100/30 for Brightlance assuming this is bought for av purposes leading to 525/130

At first glance, the Dragons do look like a good deal as they're low on the power cost and only 120/15 more expensive than a Brightlance. However, when in use they need something in order to either snare or put on additional pressure. This means either buying the Brightlance anyway, bringing the cost to 770/75 for a pair of dedicated av units that have moderate usefulness once the vehicle is dead, or by buying Warpsiders for 440/40 + 50/20 for aspect with the option of spending another 85/15 for the Exarch. This leads to having invested 935/105 or 1150/120 to counter said vehicle and leave you with two squads that are notorious for bleeding models and which have a power cost associated with their reinforcement. I'm not saying Dragons can't work. I'm saying that there are easier, more efficient, and more accessible means of dealing with vehicles in the Eldar arsenal leaving them feeling redundant. Clearly I'm in the minority on that viewpoint, so I'll withdraw my complaints.

Dark Riku wrote:You asked for opinions and you got them. Don't start arguing with them then? You seems to have your opinions set in stone already by doing so.

I asked for evidence as well to go with those opinions, but there seems to be little going around. One person says they're great vs infantry and that their 30% damage resist makes them nigh unkillable. I have not seen any evidence to support this either in my own experience or through watching higher level players use them. Another person says they are great for chasing down and killing fleeing vehicles thanks to their FotM ability, but again, I haven't seen any evidence of this. My goal was never to start arguments, but to find the evidence of how it is that they're so good that people are actually starting to call them overpowered. Even now, through my own studies in games I've been playing that focus on using them, the only thing I've found to be super good about their design is their ability to kill of a gen farm pretty quickly if you get a gate up nearby without your opponent knowing or being in position to defend. Does this justify their usefulness? Maybe it does. Maybe I'm way off the mark and everyone knows something I don't. Until I've seen evidence of this however, it's hard for me to simply accept that people say "no they're good, trust me".

Anyway, as I myself don't have sufficient evidence to support my own viewpoints as of yet either, I'll refrain from posting any further until I'm satisfied with the number of games that I've tried them out in. I don't want this to turn into a "he said, she said" kind of thing, and it's clear that there isn't a whole lot else I can add until then.

My bad, I didn't know Fire Dragons didn't get Fleet. But even so they don't need it, their base speed is sufficient to run through melee units without getting tied up. Normally this would be punished by special attacks of the melee squad against such a moving target but since Dragons don't get knocked back that isn't really a problem for them.

Kvn wrote:

Dark Riku wrote:

Dark Riku wrote:2) The only ones announcing their infiltration to the whole world are scouts. Rangers do no such thing to my recollection.

Unless it's been changed in the most recent updates, Rangers will announce "no unfriendly eye shall see" or something along those lines when laying down their Holo Fields. They use the same line when infiltrating themselves, but the opponent doesn't hear it.

I can confirm this, I played Eldar vs Eldar, I heard the line without seeing enemy Rangers (fog of war) and having none myself. I immediatly pulled my shuriken back, and let my Guardians with Exarch get closer, and there they were, infiltrated banshees.

Clearly Knv is not saying the Seercouncil or anything needs a buff, so no need to get defensive.

I think to make this more productive, lets just post replays when we got some,
or another good Idea would be to describe concrete Situations in which you would get them. What did you build up to that point, what does your enemy have. I don't think we need to comment on those, it will just turn into theorycrafting. Lets just take them as Ideas on how to test them ourselfes.

I've not got the experience to back it up, but while you keep asserting that FD are an anti-vehicle choice, while differentiating them from anti-everything, the codex says their weapons still have .8 accuracy against small targets and do 16.8 DPS per model to infantry, while WS do 18.26 dps and have the same accuracy against small targets, so that would indicate FD do 92% of the damage to infantry that WS does. How are they not anti-everything?

destructomat wrote:I've not got the experience to back it up, but while you keep asserting that FD are an anti-vehicle choice, while differentiating them from anti-everything, the codex says their weapons still have .8 accuracy against small targets and do 16.8 DPS per model to infantry, while WS do 18.26 dps and have the same accuracy against small targets, so that would indicate FD do 92% of the damage to infantry that WS does. How are they not anti-everything?

Same reason that the Melta Kit Stormtroopers aren't anti-everything. While they have a damage type that is capable of dealing high amounts of damage to all targets, their range and lack of durability hold them back. They lose models too quickly to stand up to most dedicated ranged squads, and even when they win they often bleed disproportionately. In the Dragons' case, this is made worse by their attached power cost for reinforcement which adds up quickly to damaging an Eldar eco.

As I stated earlier in the thread, there are certain ranged squads that they can 1v1 without too much issue (namely Termagaunts, Scouts, etc.) but they're not designed for that and won't often amount to more than an inefficient Dire Avenger squad if used for that purpose.