Dawn of War Codex

I think you're missing the point. It was more of a speech of reducing the early-game roll-over and stomps. For an ex. losing an early-game unit within the first 5 minute of the game has more weight and importance then losing a T1 unit at later stages of the game. (Altho, for an ex. if you lose out your only AV unit (t1 transition unit), this might put you in a off-spot, but more likely you'll have supplimentary and other units that can either pitch in, or at least transition into another AV unit)

Grey Knights getting kicked around is seriously getting abit overexagurrated nowadays. They're the new kid on the block, and despite whatever is done with them, they'll always get some flak. It's only natural that you'll put the blame on the new introduction of a faction, rather than try to accept it for what it is, or what they are for that matter. Just like how Tyranids got a massive hate from release until this very day. All other factions were present prior in the earlier installments of Dawn of War.

I'm surprised there's not MORE hate for Space Marines, considering they're showing off some of the most promising and successful tournament results as of late, and they're a heavy-weight faction for 2s/3s ontop of that. Whereas Grey Knights are usually abit more one-dimensional in their potency. But then again, people rarely have put alot of hate on Space Marines for whatever-reason, and they'll just go on with the flow, and put alot of hate misc. arbitary hate on other factions.

For an ex. I think people are somehow so unprepared for the potential paladin/terminator, and don't prepare for the battle to come, and sometimes get questionable unit purchases along the way to set it up. Like I said, Grey Knights are one-dimensional for the most part in their T3 stage of the game, whereas other factions are way more flexible. See, Space Marines for an ex. have the access to the Predator Tank, Vanguards, or Terminators (LRR as well), which means you'll have to sacrifice alot of potentcy for one against another. Grey Knights on the other hand, plasma damage source never is a liability really to purchase. You're safe-guarding yourself for the late-game, as well as dealing with their T1/T2 unit transitions along the way.

Caeltos wrote:I'm surprised there's not MORE hate for Space Marines, considering they're showing off some of the most promising and successful tournament results as of late, and they're a heavy-weight faction for 2s/3s ontop of that. Whereas Grey Knights are usually abit more one-dimensional in their potency. But then again, people rarely have put alot of hate on Space Marines for whatever-reason, and they'll just go on with the flow, and put alot of hate misc. arbitary hate on other factions.

For an ex. I think people are somehow so unprepared for the potential paladin/terminator, and don't prepare for the battle to come, and sometimes get questionable unit purchases along the way to set it up. Like I said, Grey Knights are one-dimensional for the most part in their T3 stage of the game, whereas other factions are way more flexible. See, Space Marines for an ex. have the access to the Predator Tank, Vanguards, or Terminators (LRR as well), which means you'll have to sacrifice alot of potentcy for one against another. Grey Knights on the other hand, plasma damage source never is a liability really to purchase. You're safe-guarding yourself for the late-game, as well as dealing with their T1/T2 unit transitions along the way.

A lot of it has to do with the fact that most players main Space Marines. Also while they are hard to play against their units are not as blatantly superior than anything the other factions have to offer, which is the case with GK.

Paradise Lost wrote:Also while they are hard to play against their units are not as blatantly superior than anything the other factions have to offer, which is the case with GK.

GK units are blatantly superior then all other factions? Are you joking, or bad at this game?

Cyris wrote:

Paradise Lost wrote:Also while they are hard to play against their units are not as blatantly superior than anything the other factions have to offer, which is the case with GK.

GK units are blatantly superior then all other factions? Are you joking, or bad at this game?

Then most people must be bad at this game when most matches usually say ''no GK''.

Paradise Lost wrote:Then most people must be bad at this game when most matches usually say ''no GK''.

Pretty much yeah. That and a healthy scoop of "fear of change" and a big dash of following the herd. GK have strengths and weaknesses, just like every faction. Banning them instead of learning how to deal with them is what bad gamers do.

Most matches only said "no GK" when the patch first came out, before the ops and paladin nerfs. Now that people have more experience playing them I think they've figured out how to play around their strengths... its really not hard, lack of crowd control/suppression on T1 and a terrible transition to T2 outweigh their "better" terminators in the late game.

Even when the latest patch came out, people banning GK instead of figuring out how to play against them is just dumb.

GK are way too annoying. I would love not to play against them as well (especially that my hero is Apo). That fatass with his teleporter and cheap halberd is just broken. And T3 terminators are idiotic. And that is actually it. The only things I find so broken that it is good to ban the race. And T1 is so boring. No jump units from them, no purgation anymore. Just dakka-dakka squads.

P. S. Not like impossible to play against that but I really get pissed off when OP things are used (OP things according to my perception). And I am more than glad that people ban this race so I don't get to get annoyed by that march of T3 mastodons and especially if it is a solo lane against bro cap and my hero is apo. I know this MU from both sides (I used to play GK a lot, now I stopped due to their boring T1 and broken T3) and this is just super hard to do anything if you are SM.

I would also agree that the GK-bans in lobbies need to stop. It's just getting childish at this point.

Back to the actual topic, I get the feeling that we are growing because I see (actual) new players starting to show up for Beginner Tournaments. Unlike the MRT atm (which is another issue entirely), the BT roster is pretty constantly shifting and I rarely see repeat participants.

Sub_Zero wrote:GK are way too annoying. I would love not to play against them as well (especially that my hero is Apo). That fatass with his teleporter and cheap halberd is just broken. And T3 terminators are idiotic. And that is actually it. The only things I find so broken that it is good to ban the race. And T1 is so boring. No jump units from them, no purgation anymore. Just dakka-dakka squads.

P. S. Not like impossible to play against that but I really get pissed off when OP things are used (OP things according to my perception). And I am more than glad that people ban this race so I don't get to get annoyed by that march of T3 mastodons and especially if it is a solo lane against bro cap and my hero is apo. I know this MU from both sides (I used to play GK a lot, now I stopped due to their boring T1 and broken T3) and this is just super hard to do anything if you are SM.

I remember a 3v3 I played around a week ago, we were absolutely curbstomping the enemy team on two lanes, the only lane we couldn't get was precisely the one with the GK player. And then came T3, and those broken-ass Terminators, and it took the 3 of us ganging up on him (after forcing/wiping the other players off the field) to win by a fair margin of TEN POINTS.


And someone comes up with the hurrr durr he was 2 good 4 u it as a low level game and the few times I've faced him using other races I absolutely destroyed him.





GK require less than half the skill of most races.

Paradise Lost wrote:
I remember a 3v3 I played around a week ago, we were absolutely curbstomping the enemy team on two lanes, the only lane we couldn't get was precisely the one with the GK player. And then came T3, and those broken-ass Terminators, and it took the 3 of us ganging up on him (after forcing/wiping the other players off the field) to win by a fair margin of TEN POINTS.


And someone comes up with the hurrr durr he was 2 good 4 u it as a low level game and the few times I've faced him using other races I absolutely destroyed him.





GK require less than half the skill of most races.

Hi there,

You know there's a whole sub-section of the forum dedicated to discussions like this

Maybe take this conversation there and let this one get back on topic.

On topic: in my crappy timezone it feels like I'm seeing the same faces a lot of the time. But then in my evenings there's only around 250 online at one time, which is pretty poor.

Hopefully noob friendly groups like welshy's continue to grow Maybe we should get an East Asia and Oceania one going?!

Atlas wrote:I would also agree that the GK-bans in lobbies need to stop. It's just getting childish at this point.

People are free to ban stuff from their lobbies as much as they like.

People need to l2p vs GK yes ops do high dmg atm but it'll be fixed eventually and can still counter them. If you let gk get termis thats your own fault for letting them get that far all im going to say. For topic at hand i think the community is growing from when i joined

Aguxyz wrote:If you let gk get termis thats your own fault for letting them get that far all im going to say.

There has to be a better argument than that, though. If the official counter for a unit is to tritely tell someone "don't let them get it" then that is reflective of terrible design.

Yeah, that argument is complete BS. If we stick to such BS arguments then we may as well erase balance section and don't release any patches. Everything that is in the game can be countered. I will go play retail, even there nothing is super OP to ruin the game.

I'll rephrase the point that was being made then.

GK Terms/Palas are both T3 units that are still relatively expensive despite the lack of a red cost. During that point in time, the GK player is investing a lot of resources into a future gain that is NOT being enjoyed in the present game time (ala T2).

If the opposing GK is losing squads and/or fast teching that hard..... why are you not stomping them for their greed? 3v3s help mitigate this but you're still playing what's essentially a 3v2 at times and GK isn't known for being very cheap in either req or power.

Atlas wrote:GK Terms/Palas are both T3 units that are still relatively expensive despite the lack of a red cost.

That's because they're basically a win card. I've played games where we were completely obliterating the opposite team until Paladins + Terms came out and all hell broke loose. It pretty much turned into a desperate guerilla war, us trying to capture VPs that weren't heavily guarded to secure our victory, because the GK Term variants ate everything (superunit included) we threw at them, with little support.



Tell me how that's balanced. The argument isn't even that they can't be countered, but that they're hideously broken. So your whole post is invalid.

GK Terminator/Paladins are not invincible, stop exagurrating.

Caeltos wrote:GK Terminator/Paladins are not invincible, stop exagurrating.

QFT

Paradise Lost wrote:That's because they're basically a win card. I've played games where we were completely obliterating the opposite team until Paladins + Terms came out and all hell broke loose. It pretty much turned into a desperate guerilla war, us trying to capture VPs that weren't heavily guarded to secure our victory, because the GK Term variants ate everything (superunit included) we threw at them, with little support.

Tell me how that's balanced. The argument isn't even that they can't be countered, but that they're hideously broken. So your whole post is invalid.

well first of all that's anecdotal, rather than addressing any specific areas or reasons why you have complaints.

they're not hideously broken, and they can be countered. retreat is like a 'get out of jail free' card but only once every 5 minutes, and they're still just as susceptible to plasma damage as any other terminator variant.
they also take a dickyear to build, cost huge amounts of resources, are slow, and can only attack one unit at a time. saying that they can solo superunits and armies is just absurd. all factions have easy access to damage types that are good against SHI in t2, its not hard to load up on those in preparation for terminators/pallies hitting the field.

honestly it just sounds like you need more experience playing against them

I also remember a game where I had 3x plasma tacs but they couldn't do anything because one mighty gentleman teleports in (that is their hero, that is right), then 3 other mighty gentlemen do the same, then the mightiest gentleman buffs them all (more speed, even tougher) and 2 tacs are essentially useless (not even ATSKNF helps...) and poor apo running around with his axe tries to cause some damage while scouts just laugh at their own complete incompetence to deal with SHI and shotgun blast themselves out of frustration. Hah, I had a predator tank with lascannon as well but this thing doesn't do anything to stop these units from advancing and defeating everything you have. LRR doesn't do anything as well. Terminators with their piercing damage are also a joke. Only vanguard veterans seem like the most favourable T3 purchase but even then they rely a lot on KB. Guess what? KB doesn't do anything to their hero and to all terminators. Teleportation is a bad mechanic on single entities, especially when you cannot even suppress and knock back those who teleport. And this teleportation was only justified when they couldn't retreat.

For example FC and lc termies aren't the same thing though all of them can teleport and are equally dangerous and tough. FC is suppressed and knocked back. LC termies can't retreat, cost red (so you can't buff them via the global ability as often). I see balance here. I don't see balance there.

As it stands now you don't need T3 against GK's T3. Just buy dreadnoughts to stomp them to the ground. But then again that cheap vindicare assassin or purgation squads with psycannons are great AV. So it is not like it is the winning strategy.

GK players, I love your words in their defence

P. S. Perspective from apo player, other races and heroes have better options, but for apo it is very hard to play that MU and that is why I express this all with such polite words because this MU annoys me very much (I didn't even metion horrible early game and all those mechanics to render ASM (the only unit apo relies on heavily, only reason to pick apo over other SM heroes) and apo useless - they rely a lot on abilities and energy), it is even worse than against LA (sanguine sword plus grenades and ASM, what is your problem?).

P. P. S. I will be disappointed if you delete this post. Because everything said here is complete truth regarding the horrendous balance of this MU and I am addressing a real issue. Why do you think I proposed to buff the ability kraken rounds so they affect SHI as well? SM and especially Apo lack good options to damage SHI. This is a problem.

P. P. P. S. When GK terminators were comparable to other terminators (it was a risky business for them to teleport) I was fine with them teleporting aggressively because I knew that it could potentially lead to their loss and being able to actually kill terminators is great. But now due to retreat it is IMPOSSIBLE (no exaggeration here) for Apo and maybe for some other heroes I can't really think of right now to kill or even stand a chance against GK terminators. FC has his own melee terminators and is more useful as a combatant. TM has his own melee walker that rapes terminators even harder than a T2 dread does and his mark target + plasma is a godlike thing. Maybe it is time to think of a special melee something for Apo so he doesn't get defeated in T3 by nobz/terminators. All he has to resort to is T2 melee walker and T3 vanguard veterans who are decent against nobz but bad against terminators. Maybe you give him a global that gives him special vanguard veterans that are able to do ability knockback via their jump and merciless strike (plus plasma damage instead of piercing damage) to fight terminators or just some other unique melee unit (not to be repetitive).

P. P. P. P. S. Or just attach an energy cost to their retreat. So apo can at least hope for some retalitation disallowing them to retreat because his axe drains enemy's energy. The easiest solution ever. Because it has a counter-play as well - transition of energy from strike squads, hero's ability to restore energy.

For the love of the Emprah, go and post this stuff in the Balance Discussion forum!

I like to know my daily dose of General Discussion forum browsing is untainted and pure. This thread has become rotten!

I come here hoping for mention of new community expanding initiatives but instead get cries of GK OP, such heresy...

Edit: Here, I found a thread for you where this discussion is encouraged! viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2044

Right up your alley!

Sub_Zero wrote:I also remember a game where I had 3x plasma tacs but they couldn't do anything because one mighty gentleman teleports in (that is their hero, that is right), then 3 other mighty gentlemen do the same, then the mightiest gentleman buffs them all (more speed, even tougher) and 2 tacs are essentially useless (not even ATSKNF helps...) and poor apo running around with his axe tries to cause some damage while scouts just laugh at their own complete incompetence to deal with SHI and shotgun blast themselves out of frustration. Hah, I had a predator tank with lascannon as well but this thing doesn't do anything to stop these units from advancing and defeating everything you have. LRR doesn't do anything as well. Terminators with their piercing damage are also a joke. Only vanguard veterans seem like the most favourable T3 purchase but even then they rely a lot on KB. Guess what? KB doesn't do anything to their hero and to all terminators. Teleportation is a bad mechanic on single entities, especially when you cannot even suppress and knock back those who teleport. And this teleportation was only justified when they couldn't retreat.

For example FC and lc termies aren't the same thing though all of them can teleport and are equally dangerous and tough. FC is suppressed and knocked back. LC termies can't retreat, cost red (so you can't buff them via the global ability as often). I see balance here. I don't see balance there.

As it stands now you don't need T3 against GK's T3. Just buy dreadnoughts to stomp them to the ground. But then again that cheap vindicare assassin or purgation squads with psycannons are great AV. So it is not like it is the winning strategy.

GK players, I love your words in their defence

P. S. Perspective from apo player, other races and heroes have better options, but for apo it is very hard to play that MU and that is why I express this all with such polite words because this MU annoys me very much (I didn't even metion horrible early game and all those mechanics to render ASM (the only unit apo relies on heavily, only reason to pick apo over other SM heroes) and apo useless - they rely a lot on abilities and energy), it is even worse than against LA (sanguine sword plus grenades and ASM, what is your problem?).

P. P. S. I will be disappointed if you delete this post. Because everything said here is complete truth regarding the horrendous balance of this MU and I am addressing a real issue. Why do you think I proposed to buff the ability kraken rounds so they affect SHI as well? SM and especially Apo lack good options to damage SHI. This is a problem.

P. P. P. S. When GK terminators were comparable to other terminators (it was a risky business for them to teleport) I was fine with them teleporting aggressively because I knew that it could potentially lead to their loss and being able to actually kill terminators is great. But now due to retreat it is IMPOSSIBLE (no exaggeration here) for Apo and maybe for some other heroes I can't really think of right now to kill or even stand a chance against GK terminators. FC has his own melee terminators and is more useful as a combatant. TM has his own melee walker that rapes terminators even harder than a T2 dread does and his mark target + plasma is a godlike thing. Maybe it is time to think of a special melee something for Apo so he doesn't get defeated in T3 by nobz/terminators. All he has to resort to is T2 melee walker and T3 vanguard veterans who are decent against nobz but bad against terminators. Maybe you give him a global that gives him special vanguard veterans that are able to do ability knockback via their jump and merciless strike (plus plasma damage instead of piercing damage) to fight terminators or just some other unique melee unit (not to be repetitive).

P. P. P. P. S. Or just attach an energy cost to their retreat. So apo can at least hope for some retalitation disallowing them to retreat because his axe drains enemy's energy. The easiest solution ever. Because it has a counter-play as well - transition of energy from strike squads, hero's ability to restore energy.

They don't even need Purgation anymore, they just go double strike squad (which beats all of their counterparts in both melee, ranged and health for some reason) with plasma IST and upgrade them to psycannons to rape your whole army. If you even try to supress them you'll get the tankiest hero in the game teleporting/charging into your face with a splash damage power melee halberd.


Yeah,perfectly balanced.

A single walker is enough of a detterent to wade off 2x Strikes and a Brother-Captain, since he has no AV_damage output source, and Strike Squad Psycanons are the inferior version of regular Purgation Squad Psycanons.

Please, let the discussion die already. I really don't want to go indepth on how wrong your analogy is.