Dawn of War Codex

saltychipmunk wrote:

Tex wrote:Please stop calling ogryns mediocre.

They aren't.

can we at-least agree that being too expensive is not the same as saying they are a bad unit?

yes

If you're going to make a cost-efficiency assertion just explicate that. E.g. IMO baneblade is mediocre for cost because of xyz. See, easy.

It'll clear up a lot of the "disagreements" that basically boil down to semantics.

Ogryns aren't even bad for cost. When used properly they're like a t2 nob squad.

neither are purifiers, but for their cost you are affording your opponent a ton of leeway power wise for just a conventional melee unit with more durability and a better damage type .

and since they are a conventional unit this also means you need to invest into ever more things to get them to that level of performance. mostly in the form of a commander wargear or copious amounts of disruption from buddies

And what do purifiers have to do with this? °_O

saltychipmunk wrote:neither are purifiers, but for their cost you are affording your opponent a ton of leeway power wise for just a conventional melee unit with more durability and a better damage type .

and since they are a conventional unit this also means you need to invest into ever more things to get them to that level of performance. mostly in the form of a commander wargear or copious amounts of disruption from buddies

Just having them on the field forces your opponeny to deal with them. They soak up piercing_pvp like it's nothing and deal great damage to everything. They're IG's shock troop unit and serve a very important role.

My suggestion would be: practice using Ogryns without hero support or the squad leader. Learn how to use them effectively standalone before becoming reliant on abilities. And then once you mix in hero abilities they become truly devastating.

Dark Riku wrote:And what do purifiers have to do with this? °_O

they are both high power cost conventional melee units that appear in t2, they are both high hp and durability (for what they are) and they are also high damage.

but this context they are both at or above 100 power investment and are both huge power bleeds. and while one can argue they can both be used very effectively it does not in anyway coverup the fact that taking them will slow, stall or even reduce your tech race for the next tier or just to out fit other units for what is again a conventional melee unit that has no exotic traits other than better stats and a better damage type / armor.

purifiers may not be able to take on tanks but lets not pretend that there aren't a billion similarities between the two. because there are.
there are quite alot of them.

i bring them up because every time i see someone get the purifiers i have basically won the game because of it. they take them / ogryns i neutralize them with a few upgrades> i was going to get anyway< and then i curb stomp them later because i get to tier 3 much faster.

you could argue that maybe im not playing people who use them well, sure. but it has been happening enough for me to notice

again both still good units. but both suffer from essentially identical issues.

Re: Guardsman Commissar Upgrade is too good.

...

saltychipmunk wrote:again both still good units. but both suffer from essentially identical issues.

I find this is counter to my experiences playing these two factions. Purifiers have much different and deeper problems then Ogryns, though they do share some characteristics as you pointed out. In any case, let's try to keep this thread focused on IG and the Commisar!

Edit:
On that note, he's a copy paste of the stat breakdown of the GM from another thread...

T1
GM + Sarge:
295 req / 9 pop / 17 upkeep
940 health
35 dps
+2 for 1 renforce
+10hp/s repair

T2
GM + Sarge + Commi:
380/15 cost / 12 pop / 22 upkeep
1280 health
60 dps
+3 for 1 renforce
+Execute

60 dps plus that much health is pretty solid for 380/15, even in T2. Add on the option to go plasma if needed, and multiply by the low pop, upkeep, renforce and retreat break (an oft overlooked but incredibly strong ability). GM has a lot going for it. Too much? Just right, considering their model health and internal faction balance?

For some comparisons, here are some other meat and potatoes T2 ranged infantry:

DA + Warlock: (Aspect not included)
385/15 cost / 12 pop / 30 upkeep (450/30 if we add Aspect)
875 health
57 dps
+Short range detect
+Melee charge/knockdown!
+Embolden
+20% ranged damage resistance

Tac + Sarge:
525/25 cost / 20 pop / 49 upkeep
1450 health
60 dps
+Heavy Armor
+Kraken Bolts
+ATSKNF

Shootas + Nob + Big shootas:
420/45 cost / 15 pop / 33 upkeep
885 health
78 dps
+Aiming Waz Dat
+Detect / die last
+Waaaag

Dark Riku wrote:Re: Guardsman Commissar Upgrade is too good.

...

yes it is , happy? I mean there is only so many ways to say that before it becomes more productive to simply discuss the options to rectifying it.
If you don't like my suggestion of moving resources between ogryns and gm then fine. I will leave it at that as a definitive veto.

but its not like i suddenly made this an ogryn purifier thread. just making a suggestion , one of many to adjust the gm and their commissar without simply adding 10 -20 power to the over all ig power line-up nothing more nothing less not every suggestion need explicitly reference the title unit in every post.

Cyris wrote:..

I think the only squad i haven't called lacking when faced with gm resource efficiency are termagants at this point . those data points don't particularly sway me from that opinion.

the only saving grace for the other units listed , is that gm will want a chimera to really exploit their primary trait

karnakkardak wrote:Well, in response, tier 1 guardman weakest infatry in this game. Even temaguant win crippling poison upgrade(when guardman with sergent)

Guardsmen with Sergeant and Flamer will eat those Termagants all day.

@ Salty, reading comprehension, geezus.
What do purifiers have to do with the topic was my only point.
I haven't even shared my opinion on the matter yet and with the way you are reacting I'm not going to either.

bibotot wrote:

karnakkardak wrote:Well, in response, tier 1 guardman weakest infatry in this game. Even temaguant win crippling poison upgrade(when guardman with sergent)

Guardsmen with Sergeant and Flamer will eat those Termagants all day.

And you should be getting at least 1 flamer vs nids anyway imo.

Dark Riku wrote:@ Salty, reading comprehension, geezus.
What do purifiers have to do with the topic was my only point.
I haven't even shared my opinion on the matter yet and with the way you are reacting I'm not going to either.

i already addressed that, they are very similar to ogryns , and i used ogryns in my suggestion to address the current concern with guardsmen commissars.

ie they (purifiers and ogyrns) both suffer from similar shortcomings that limit them to more niche rolls than i feel fair.

they need a buff, in my opinion, commissar needs a nerf ,in my opinion. i suggested buffing one and nerfing the other so that the total power cost of their relationship is not negatively impacted.

purifiers were added in to show a trend in the unit type it self rather than just ogryns