Dawn of War Codex

Dark Riku wrote:

Laplace's Demon wrote:If you don't want to back up what you say, why say anything?

Because there are stupid statements being made without any "back up".

Laplace's Demon wrote:I argue that eldar bleed because every replay I have ever seen with eldar has had eldar bleed (including games where you play eldar yourself). All you need to do to prove this wrong is to produce ONE upper level game where eldar wins without much bleed. I suspect the reason no one does is because (drumroll please) none exist.

"Non exist" because you haven't seen every replay out there and because nobody cares enough to save replays and post them here.
I for one do not save my replays as when I do play, I try to enjoy the game.
I used to save my replays back in the glory days for myself to see and analyse where I fucked up. Maybe try that first?
It doesn't help that you state things as facts either. When they are actually your personal opinions and narrow observations.

Well, lets agree to disagree then? You're the only one I've seen who has said eldar don't bleed, but dissenting views are valuable. I saw the game where you play noisy as FS and it was amazing, as it always is watching noisy play. I would caution against using the supreme skills of noisy as the benchmark against which all are judged however. If the only way to avoid eldar bleed is to play at noisy level craziness, I still think its a safe call to say eldar bleed. Even in the games he plays though, he sheds a fair number models when holding ground, and preserving them by conceding ground (as you expect from hit and run). My two cents.

Laplace's Demon wrote:You're the only one I've seen who has said eldar don't bleed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYUxrS1vT_Y

Less qq more pew pew. A forum warrior who doesn't play the game adamantly disagreeing with several known pr0s because he's watched a ton of replays doesn't impress or interest anyone.

Laplace's Demon wrote:I argue that eldar bleed because every replay I have ever seen with eldar has had eldar bleed (including games where you play eldar yourself). All you need to do to prove this wrong is to produce ONE upper level game where eldar wins without much bleed. I suspect the reason no one does is because (drumroll please) none exist. Eldar bleed is a fact for every eldar player in the game, and trying to deny it is very unhelpful unless real examples and methods can be shown in replays, which are pretty easy to post. The way you argue about this is sounds like they're everywhere, which is all the more confusing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxN4J_l ... Zo&index=3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9Rs-uZ ... Zo&index=4

just look up some holyhammer games
dude makes eldar look like SM. so tough to bleed when microed well.

Fexxo wrote:Also Space Marines are a dwindling faction too, they have a limited amount of gene seed that can be re used. If they lose that gene seed that is it. Chapters have been left to their doom due to Chaos Space Marines invading their fortresses and taking that gene seed for themselves. Leaving no way for the chapter to replenish their numbers.

Genetic banks on Holy Terra say something different though

Crewfinity wrote:

Laplace's Demon wrote:I argue that eldar bleed because every replay I have ever seen with eldar has had eldar bleed (including games where you play eldar yourself). All you need to do to prove this wrong is to produce ONE upper level game where eldar wins without much bleed. I suspect the reason no one does is because (drumroll please) none exist. Eldar bleed is a fact for every eldar player in the game, and trying to deny it is very unhelpful unless real examples and methods can be shown in replays, which are pretty easy to post. The way you argue about this is sounds like they're everywhere, which is all the more confusing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxN4J_l ... Zo&index=3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9Rs-uZ ... Zo&index=4

just look up some holyhammer games
dude makes eldar look like SM. so tough to bleed when microed well.

These are great, thanks! It looks like he is really good at knowing when to retreat his units and targeting isolated enemy units. It's a tricky balance to get right, since it leaves him vulnerable to power bashes, since his opponent can force eldar into a war of attrition. Looks like he deals with this by not bothering to defend the gens and by using mobility to trade gen farms. This is almost always his response... very interesting.

Toilailee wrote:

Laplace's Demon wrote:You're the only one I've seen who has said eldar don't bleed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYUxrS1vT_Y

Less qq more pew pew. A forum warrior who doesn't play the game adamantly disagreeing with several known pr0s because he's watched a ton of replays doesn't impress or interest anyone.

Blind acceptance of the words of pros may be in keeping with space marine doctrine, but it doesn't do much for true understanding, if you take my meaning. The most interesting things I've ever learned have come through debate. Otherwise, I would not have known to try them! I've played warlock since retail and, as a direct result of these conversations, have started using FS, and focusing on avoiding bleed (through tactical concession of territory in return for attacking elsewhere) which I have much enjoyed.

Questioning my elders has always been the most instructive method of learning (and keeps them on their toes as well )

Laplace's Demon wrote:Questioning my elders has always been the most instructive method of learning (and keeps them on their toes as well )

That is 100% true. However there is a big difference between asking for advice, wisdom and perspective - and telling people with more experience that they are wrong. Consider strongly which tactic you are using. The former tends to generate wisdom and insight on a shared journey, the later is used by arrogant TV pundits and politicians "debating" climate change.

Compare threads like this one to others where people ask questions and get answers / tactics advise. Tone and presentation mater.

Cyris wrote:

Laplace's Demon wrote:Questioning my elders has always been the most instructive method of learning (and keeps them on their toes as well )

That is 100% true. However there is a big difference between asking for advice, wisdom and perspective - and telling people with more experience that they are wrong. Consider strongly which tactic you are using. The former tends to generate wisdom and insight on a shared journey, the later is used by arrogant TV pundits and politicians "debating" climate change.

Compare threads like this one to others where people ask questions and get answers / tactics advise. Tone and presentation mater.

I've said that I disagree with some things pros have said, but I don't recall ever saying anyone was wrong.

A bunch of people have posted some great games here showing how some very high level players manage eldar bleed, and its been fantastic to watch! Huge thanks to Crew and Wise Windu for those.

Plenty of good Eldar players out there. Search redrupee or indrid's channels for some of Lindonin's old reps, or check out adila's twitch channel.

Holy hammer is king tho

Dark Riku wrote:

Fexxo wrote:Also Space Marines are a dwindling faction too, they have a limited amount of gene seed that can be re used. If they lose that gene seed that is it. Chapters have been left to their doom due to Chaos Space Marines invading their fortresses and taking that gene seed for themselves. Leaving no way for the chapter to replenish their numbers.

Genetic banks on Holy Terra say something different though

Didn't know these existed weird that in Huron Blackhearts lore it says he stole their gene seed to leave them to a slow death.

Then I was wrong about that, but Eldar still have it easier to fill numbers

See if you can find some Harrehpottah casts.

There should be a few casts with Pottah in Youtube.

0_o
This guy must be a really old timer, I've never even heard of him... when was he active?

He left about when Elite came around.

Fexxo wrote:Also Space Marines are a dwindling faction too, they have a limited amount of gene seed that can be re used. If they lose that gene seed that is it. Chapters have been left to their doom due to Chaos Space Marines invading their fortresses and taking that gene seed for themselves. Leaving no way for the chapter to replenish their numbers.

I just remembered a long time question now. Why gene seed is so priceless? I mean can't they just produce more? What is the trick about gene seed?

firatwithin wrote:

Fexxo wrote:Also Space Marines are a dwindling faction too, they have a limited amount of gene seed that can be re used. If they lose that gene seed that is it. Chapters have been left to their doom due to Chaos Space Marines invading their fortresses and taking that gene seed for themselves. Leaving no way for the chapter to replenish their numbers.

I just remembered a long time question now. Why gene seed is so priceless? I mean can't they just produce more? What is the trick about gene seed?

Because you have to grow it in a marine. Each marine has two in his body, one of which can be extracted to implant into a new initiate.

Crewfinity wrote:0_o
This guy must be a really old timer, I've never even heard of him... when was he active?

Umm he quit like late 2011 or early-mid 2012? Anyways even back when IG was concidered to be heavily favored vs eldar he consistently rekt me with them like no1 else.
My only defense is that I was still kinda up-and-coming back then.

Dark Riku wrote:http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Gene-Seed

In the article you linked it states that they have lost the ability to create new gene seed. So it is still finite and there fore the bank Gene Seed banks must also be limited which then proves my point that Space Marines are indeed a dwindling faction.

"Since the First Founding, the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes have lost the ability to engineer new gene-seed or implant organs from scratch."

Or this is conflicting lore.

Fexxo wrote:

Dark Riku wrote:http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Gene-Seed

In the article you linked it states that they have lost the ability to create new gene seed. So it is still finite and there fore the bank Gene Seed banks must also be limited which then proves my point that Space Marines are indeed a dwindling faction.

"Since the First Founding, the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes have lost the ability to engineer new gene-seed or implant organs from scratch."

Or this is conflicting lore.

They can't create new chapter gene seed. Every gene seed grown in a marine is a derivative of one of the original loyalist chapters and carries all of its strengths/weaknesses. They cannot synthesize new seed in a lab.

So if i understand correctly, they can make a bunch of copies or derivatives.. but cant explicitly make completely new ones. Does that make gene seed an exhaustible resource? or can lesser chapters simply ask to make more from the original stock? in which case they could reasonably make as many as they need..

saltychipmunk wrote:So if i understand correctly, they can make a bunch of copies or derivatives.. but cant explicitly make completely new ones. Does that make gene seed an exhaustible resource? or can lesser chapters simply ask to make more from the original stock? in which case they could reasonably make as many as they need..

I believe they keep original stocks in some places (Mars comes to mind) so that a chapter can get its gene seed replenished if it suffers catastrophe. But if those are lost then no more can be made. You only get what you duplicate in a space marine.

Google some more guys. Everything is out there
In dire need they use criminals to make new gene-seeds by implanting it in them while keeping them restrained.
It just takes minimum 10 years to make iirc.

Oddnerd wrote:I believe they keep original stocks in some places (Mars comes to mind) so that a chapter can get its gene seed replenished if it suffers catastrophe. But if those are lost then no more can be made. You only get what you duplicate in a space marine.

They send it to Mars so it can be tested for mutations etc. Chapters wouldn't dream of asking those back.
Also shows how little Mars know about the gene-seed, because they are all fucked up

Dark Riku wrote:Also shows how little Mars know about the gene-seed, because they are all fucked up

I'd imagine in the more extreme cases(Blood Angels,Space Wolves) it's also a case of how much political might they have, which considering things like the Inquisition pardoning the Wolves after killing several Grey Knights I'd imagine the First Founding chapters have quite a bit of.

Dark Riku wrote:Google some more guys. Everything is out there
In dire need they use criminals to make new gene-seeds by implanting it in them while keeping them restrained.
It just takes minimum 10 years to make iirc.

Oddnerd wrote:I believe they keep original stocks in some places (Mars comes to mind) so that a chapter can get its gene seed replenished if it suffers catastrophe. But if those are lost then no more can be made. You only get what you duplicate in a space marine.

They send it to Mars so it can be tested for mutations etc. Chapters wouldn't dream of asking those back.
Also shows how little Mars know about the gene-seed, because they are all fucked up

but if we google then... how would people get to show off their lore knowleges? Plus it is fun to learn this kind of thing from somewhere other than a wiki since forum posters tend to put personality into the explanations

saltychipmunk wrote:
but if we google then... how would people get to show off their lore knowleges? Plus it is fun to learn this kind of thing from somewhere other than a wiki since forum posters tend to put personality into the explanations

You dare impugn the divinity of the Oracle!? The inquisition will have your head!

What's with these Eldar threads popping up like weeds?

Probably the upcoming patch,mine was just to voice what's on my mind!

Gene-weed
Fuck your iho-sticks