Dawn of War Codex

Like Feeder Tendrils being pushed out of existence?

Let's just make sure discussion has to do with the TM in this thread

I did a really nice post last night, fully researched and paragraphed for easy reading... lol... and the internet ate it. Rookie mistake I know. I haven't been 100% these past few days. Anyway, when I find a chunk of time, I will think about posting a condensed version of it.

Tex wrote:I did a really nice post last night, fully researched and paragraphed for easy reading... lol... and the internet ate it. Rookie mistake I know. I haven't been 100% these past few days. Anyway, when I find a chunk of time, I will think about posting a condensed version of it.

Condensed version would be appreciated

Asmon wrote:When wargears seem too powerful it's never a fix to change their prices...

Wise words my lord.

Unfortunately, that's inaccruate. A performance of a gear can simply be undercostly, and sometimes a gear can be overpriced for it's effiency. Or, it just doesn't blend together with either components. See any moba games which has item value costs and how much they are constantly changed in both cost, and sometimes in stats.

Blessing of the Omnissiah so op

https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/1458

on a side note im still waiting for a real zoan counter while playing tm, is bionics op enough for that?

Well imo TM is mostly fine.


Bionics overperforms somewhat but it's not utterly broken. It just got overbuffed and could do with longer cooldown, possibly losing or toning down the health regen and/or raising the price to 25 power to not make it such a no brainer over shotguns in many cases.

Turrets can be gayy in team games.

Plasma overcharge is a bit silly by design.

And unlike some1 said before I don't think beacons overperform in 3s so much as they do in 1s when placed correctly in big maps and are used with at least 2 tacs, so much in fact that I felt it made TM favored vs nids on levi hive at one point.

TM is just the nerfhammer target of the moment. We'll get started on WSE next week.

Tex wrote:I did a really nice post last night, fully researched and paragraphed for easy reading... lol... and the internet ate it. Rookie mistake I know. I haven't been 100% these past few days. Anyway, when I find a chunk of time, I will think about posting a condensed version of it.

I think this might be the 3rd time you've mentioned this happening to you! So tragic.

This "TM OP" thread baffles the heck out of me, so I've been hoping someone does a breakdown/deep dive into the reasoning. I find TM very middle of the road to fight against. He's got a couple of "OP" tricks, but so does everyone and his feel reasonable to work around.

Toilailee wrote:Well imo TM is mostly fine.


Bionics overperforms somewhat but it's not utterly broken. It just got overbuffed and could do with longer cooldown, possibly losing or toning down the health regen and/or raising the price to 25 power to not make it such a no brainer over shotguns in many cases.

Turrets can be gayy in team games.

Plasma overcharge is a bit silly by design.

And unlike some1 said before I don't think beacons overperform in 3s so much as they do in 1s when placed correctly in big maps and are used with at least 2 tacs, so much in fact that I felt it made TM favored vs nids on levi hive at one point.

Agree with everything but bionics, I would never buy bionics over shotties, the latter makes a useless unit into a somewhat effective on (though scouts need shotties+inf to actually be useful) but on the anti melee aspect bionics is pretty bad, sure it's CD is too low and should be increased there's no debating that, the problem with the ability itself is that you'll never be able to use it against a competent opponent, it's not like shotties where you are the one with the initiation, you can KB any squad at will (unless it bugs) and it will KB + suppression, bionics however... To be effective you need to get your TM surrounded by an enemy melee squad and while it does very good damage vs high models low hp units, it's largely ineffective (outside of it's KB) against stuff like letters,raptors etc.

Basically, it's poor micro from your opponent if his squads get caught by it, that's why I believe nerfing it or not will not affect it's performance against competent opponents and that's why it's not that good of a wargear by itself unless you plan to use the TM as a capping unit in 1v1 against mass hormas/sluggas/tics, but in that case you may aswell go arti and spam mines in choke points or around VPs etc.

Although, I think a 5 power increase will be fine since at 20 power it's very cheap.

Ace of Swords wrote:To be effective you need to get your TM surrounded by an enemy melee squad and while it does very good damage vs high models low hp units, it's largely ineffective (outside of it's KB) against stuff like letters,raptors etc.

Actually, you can force melee to other ranged units and knockback them too. I use that tactic. Or, when they charge in, step forward and knockback them like a Sentinal, etc...

But I agree with Ace now. The anti melee capacity is low on Bionics. I would vote for a better Powerfull S. with a cost increase.

Cyris wrote: I find TM very middle of the road to fight against. He's got a couple of "OP" tricks, but so does everyone and his feel reasonable to work around.

This is pretty much how I feel. I think their are certain maps/matchups in which certain enemy commanders have perfectly valid grievances about TM, but overall he doesn't seem a glaringly imbalanced commander.

Of course Tex has probably faced him as every commander in the game more than I have as any race, so my opinion is only so relevant.

Forestradio wrote:Blessing of the Omnissiah so op

https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/1458

I looked up the numbers for BoO and its like having 75% of a GM repair for 30 seconds. If it healed all the HP in 5 seconds I'd be grabbing a torch and joining the TM hate in full force, but it seems like BoO has to be used proactively and only reliably counters soft AV.

Btw, BoO does not work if tank is full health. "Why do you repair it when it is health?" I mean, it does not repair if the tank damaged later on.

In my usual fashion, I'm just going to show you.

#TMisnowlife

A few things to point out though:

BoO heals 450hp per vehicle. Typically, a TM in a competitive position will purchase a razorback and then a dreadnaught. Now we are talking 900 vehicle hp for 150 red. Due to the "all-in" nature of trying to kill a well managed space marine vehicle in T2 (more so the dread than the razor, but still...) ... anyway, like I said, I'm going to show you.

Bionics is bad? So having 45 melee damage on an almost instant pulse is a bad thing? Having the easiest stomp to land in the game is a bad thing (do I need to explain to you that the TM attracts melee units like a magnet because of his lack of melee and huge ranged dps)? Having a melee damage type on your ability allows it to do extra damage on retreat is a bad thing?
For reference, the other stomps in T1 on purchasable wargear have piercing damage, or in the case of big stomp, it does 50 explosive damage. Not like that really matters anyway, because the point is that you don't need or want to be in melee with a warboss. You do however, right from the very start of the game, need to shutdown the RDPS of the TM.

retreat beacon is balanced in 1v1? ha... plz watch toil replays when he went on a TM kick. He made a proper timing that was largely unbeatable.

heh... see you on the battlefield

You know how you can also shutdown ranged units? Suppression! :O You're overreacting Tex.

All this talk about TM almost makes me want to stop healing stuff and start fixing stuff.

Tex wrote:#TMisnowlife

because of this, when people want to win, they pick nids, gk, and cl?

This thread is cancer.

Forestradio wrote:

Tex wrote:#TMisnowlife

because of this, when people want to win, they pick LA, LA and LA?

Fixed for increased Forest authenticity

Seriously, keep it clean. This is about TM >:O

@Tex
Who cares what it is like in context of other stomps in T1? I think it's pretty established at this point that just comparing X faction vs Y faction isn't the way to do things because you have a different composition to consider.

No one is denying that bionics is a good piece of wargear. Tbh, it needs a cooldown increase but all this other talk about how invincible it makes TM is just out of hand.

As for the Blessing, from what I'm hearing is that this global is OP in way late T2 when he has multiple vehicles. Considering that it's basically his only global in 1v1 until wayyyyyyy late game, I'm kinda ok with this if it's OP at all. TM is good with vehicles, make sense. Just like having Malignant Blindness for CL and Flare for LC, it kinda defines his style.

As for the whole beacon in 1v1 talk, that's really situational and pretty all or nothing too imo. I don't think I need to point to your own game vs Noisy (on recrod) to tell you that Tex

Atlas wrote:Seriously, keep it clean. This is about TM >:O

@Tex
Who cares what it is like in context of other stomps in T1? I think it's pretty established at this point that just comparing X faction vs Y faction isn't the way to do things because you have a different composition to consider.

No one is denying that bionics is a good piece of wargear. Tbh, it needs a cooldown increase but all this other talk about how invincible it makes TM is just out of hand.

As for the Blessing, from what I'm hearing is that this global is OP in way late T2 when he has multiple vehicles. Considering that it's basically his only global in 1v1 until wayyyyyyy late game, I'm kinda ok with this if it's OP at all. TM is good with vehicles, make sense. Just like having Malignant Blindness for CL and Flare for LC, it kinda defines his style.

As for the whole beacon in 1v1 talk, that's really situational and pretty all or nothing too imo. I don't think I need to point to your own game vs Noisy (on recrod) to tell you that Tex

Who cares? Atlas... I'm not comparing apples to Ferraris here. I did a detailed look at all stomp wargear across the board. I added context to the numbers because I play every hero in this game so I have a pretty good idea of why one of them only does 15 piercing damage, and another does 50 explosive damage (which is a pretty retarded damage type for a stomp, but hey, orks?) and another does 35 piercing with a 10 second DoT. A true shame the internet ate it. Regardless though, its not like I'm simply saying TM STOMP IS SO GOOD NERF ROFL WOWOWZA!!!

I would argue that its stupid to make comparisons without adding context. I don't feel I'm guilty of this.

Anyway, I'm done talkin. After all, better to do it than to say it.

Kill the Weak: 20 melee damage. heals 75 hp on the cl per model hit

Stomp (wb): 30 melee damage

Big Stomp: 50 explosive damage, stun

Stomp (sent): 20 melee damage, stun

all values taken from codex, if someone can read the game files and correct then plz do...

right from the very start of the game, need to shutdown the RDPS of the TM.

idd, however this is no different from any hero, the tm strength is his ability to do ranged dmg very early on, meanwhile heroes like the RA have superior base stats (more melee dps, melee charge+special, higher speed, ranged dmg fired in high bursts) and tunnels.

srsly Tex, if bionics is so dominating why is artificer so much better than it on some maps and matchups? why is it that you can get away with multiple horma builds against sm, ignoring losses even from nade spikes WIPING entire squads, and still dominate the map enough to get zoans that are a hard counter to everything in the sm roster?

I can't talk about a post I've never seen :X

Would be really interested in seeing that streem though!

TM is fine L2P,L2Dodge bionics, L2Buff MCB

Stop making me delay 2.5 more then I already have to with this jibberyabber scadoodling.

Gnaerold Ghostwolf wrote:bTW every hero and unit is Over Powered in right hands

Yeah. Likely the most stupid line of this thread.

The worst part being that to see something overperform is alright as long as you can find something else that is OP too? May you never be involved in a dev team.

The funny thing is that there is much more OP stuff in this game than TM at this moment and still here we have 2 page topic...

Gnaerold Ghostwolf wrote:

Asmon wrote:The worst part being that to see something overperform is alright as long as you can find something else that is OP.

Are u serious so this is your answear, balance solved.

No, he meant that that is NOT the solution.

Sturnn wrote:The funny thing is that there is much more OP stuff in this game than TM at this moment and still here we have 2 page topic...

But that sounds like you agree that it's OP, just that other things are more OP so the less OP things shouldn't get fixed. Shouldn't we fix all things that are OP or UP?

People seem to use the term "OP" very liberally. Apparently everything in this game is either game-breakingly powerful or not even worth getting

On topic: I don't play TM so I can't say much about his "OP-ness". Facing him in team games is a pain with his turret, beacon and high starting dps... but I've never considered him to be too strong (SM always wreck me, but I don't think that's the TM's fault). Powerful sweep cooldown seem a tad bit short for the damage it does though. But I haven't played in a few months so maybe I'm misremembering things.

Caeltos wrote:Stop making me delay 2.5 more then I already have to with this jibberyabber scadoodling.

Caeltos’ journal, January 29th, 2016

Shoota boy carcass in alley this morning, land raider tread on burst stomach.
This mod is afraid of me. I’ve seen its true face. The metagame is an extended gutter. The gutter is full of abuse. And when the gutter finally scabs over, all the players will drown in qq. The accumulated filth of all their bug abuse and cheese will foam up around their build orders. Then all the noobs and cheesemongers will look up and shout “Release 2.5!”
And I’ll whisper, “No.”

https://youtu.be/ARDhJ2dpuYU?t=9s