Dawn of War Codex

Swiftsabre wrote:Choko's out the loop but he was once a pretty formidable player back in the day

[Citation needed] A-moving a shoota blob made a lot of formidable players in retail as 1 shotting gen farms with hellfury strike, or cons and ober blobs made a lot of formidable players in coh2 too (I mean I got effortlessly in top 50 1v1s with obers by playing like a complete retard), this isn't to offend choko, but vanilla was highly "cheeseable" if he's a formidable player he should know to abstain from balance discussion still he has got enough experience to actually comment on it and he should also be able to adapt with enough time given, but surely from what I've seen so far I'm not impressed.

Ace of Swords wrote:

Swiftsabre wrote:Choko's out the loop but he was once a pretty formidable player back in the day

[Citation needed] A-moving a shoota blob made a lot of formidable players in retail as 1 shotting gen farms with hellfury strike, or cons and ober blobs made a lot of formidable players in coh2 too (I mean I got effortlessly in top 50 1v1s with obers by playing like a complete retard), this isn't to offend choko, but vanilla was highly "cheeseable" if he's a formidable player he should know to abstain from balance discussion still he has got enough experience to actually comment on it and he should also be able to adapt with enough time given, but surely from what I've seen so far I'm not impressed.

Choko was a very good WSE player back in the day and played at a very high level during the peak of DoW 2 where he also had good tournament performance. I wouldn't debate whether or not he's a good player, as he is.

All that being said, he's still new to the mod and needs to get used to it. I got my ass handed to me when I first came in. Paperbag got his ass handed to him when he first played in the mod. Everyone got their ass handed to them when they first started and there aren't any exceptions as everyone had to get used to new things. Once Choko plays some more he'll get better like everyone else and I expect him to make it to top 5 easily considering how good he is.

I do not think I was commenting balance per se, but more design choices and the turning certain matchup "rules" on its head.

One example is filling major gaps that were there by design while overlooking parity that has come from filling said gap and not increasing performance of specialized squads with additional scaling.

As for my skill, I am in fact mediocre at best in Elite and thats ok. I got my ass handed to be by pretty much everyone in the top 20 of the ladder and I have completely lost my toss grenade on retreat skill.

Having said that I can compete rather well early game, the problem comes mid tier2 and later on due to different and misplaced expectations on how much economic damage I have made. For example, I got two guardian squads insta shotted by the Plaque champ bomb because I thought it was only a DoT and not an initial blast and then a DoT. Live and learn.

Having said that, I will come back to my initial opinion. Flow units were heavily nerfed for the eldar and changed in role making them rather worthless. Flow units were Rangers and WSs. Rangers constantly bleeding squads throughout the game with good play and WS killing squads on retreat. Direct combat was never the Eldar forte, but by design in Elite the games are as such, direct combat.

My conclusion is thus:
The Eldar in elite play more like orks in vanilla, with the exception of peaking in tier2 and not in tier3, with tier2 prices being pretty insane. I would love

Updated suggestion list:
- Rangers do enough damage to one shot : sluggas, shootas, guardians, catachans and other 300 req or below squad models, catachans being the exception due to a 300/30 and heavy impact

- All Eldar aspect warriors gain an additional upgrade in tier3 increasing their durability due to the heavily specialized nature. You cannot make new tier3 shoota that is just a better shoota then the tier1 one. You are stuck with a squad that has that role. This is to keep Eldar units viable throughout the game

For example:
Banshee upgrade gives additional 20% hit points and 10% damage
Ranger upgrade Increases its fire rate by 100%
WS upgrade makes WS invulnerable for 3 seconds after teleporting
Dire Avenger upgrade gives them 100% faster repair speed and the shields are much stronger
Fire Dragon gives back the 30% ranged damage reduction due to a low range nature of the squad
Reaper squad range increased by 20%
WL upgrade gives it 200 extra hitpoints alongside the heal
WG upgrade gives them 20% ranged damage mitigation as well.

Again, this would all be tier3 upgrades which you would have to pay for to keep the squad relevant as the units are very defined role wise.

ChokoBambus wrote:I do not think I was commenting balance per se, but more design choices and the turning certain matchup "rules" on its head.

One example is filling major gaps that were there by design while overlooking parity that has come from filling said gap and not increasing performance of specialized squads with additional scaling.

As for my skill, I am in fact mediocre at best in Elite and thats ok. I got my ass handed to be by pretty much everyone in the top 20 of the ladder and I have completely lost my toss grenade on retreat skill.

Having said that I can compete rather well early game, the problem comes mid tier2 and later on due to different and misplaced expectations on how much economic damage I have made. For example, I got two guardian squads insta shotted by the Plaque champ bomb because I thought it was only a DoT and not an initial blast and then a DoT. Live and learn.

Having said that, I will come back to my initial opinion. Flow units were heavily nerfed for the eldar and changed in role making them rather worthless. Flow units were Rangers and WSs. Rangers constantly bleeding squads throughout the game with good play and WS killing squads on retreat. Direct combat was never the Eldar forte, but by design in Elite the games are as such, direct combat.

My conclusion is thus:
The Eldar in elite play more like orks in vanilla, with the exception of peaking in tier2 and not in tier3, with tier2 prices being pretty insane. I would love

Updated suggestion list:
- Rangers do enough damage to one shot : sluggas, shootas, guardians, catachans and other 300 req or below squad models, catachans being the exception due to a 300/30 and heavy impact

- All Eldar aspect warriors gain an additional upgrade in tier3 increasing their durability due to the heavily specialized nature. You cannot make new tier3 shoota that is just a better shoota then the tier1 one. You are stuck with a squad that has that role. This is to keep Eldar units viable throughout the game

For example:
Banshee upgrade gives additional 20% hit points and 10% damage
Ranger upgrade Increases its fire rate by 100%
WS upgrade makes WS invulnerable for 3 seconds after teleporting
Dire Avenger upgrade gives them 100% faster repair speed and the shields are much stronger
Fire Dragon gives back the 30% ranged damage reduction due to a low range nature of the squad
Reaper squad range increased by 20%
WL upgrade gives it 200 extra hitpoints alongside the heal
WG upgrade gives them 20% ranged damage mitigation as well.

Again, this would all be tier3 upgrades which you would have to pay for to keep the squad relevant as the units are very defined role wise.

This is very good material for the Eldardesign thread.

I hope for the mod and for yourself that you make more quality posts (like these last 2) without getting bogged down by your ingame rage
(Though I might be biased because I play Eldar and because I dislike the Rangerchanges).


Rangers have supression with the pathfindergear, but only after 2-3 shots, and even then the enemy unit is only supressed 80% of the time. 2 Rangers with Pathfinder on the other hand can be really annoying for the enemy, when one salvo gets a squad immidiatly supressed, and you can keep them that way when slightly offsetting the shots. The Kineticshot also got buffed (more damage lower CD I think?) in a later patch which somewhat redeemed them for me. Even though I still find it unbelievebal that they can't oneshot a Guardsman model...

Their dps is roughly the same as before against Commanders and HI, but they are far less bursty, which means you don't get that dps in when the enemy doesn't stand still. The DPS is heavily reduced against Infantryarmor. (Not sure how much you know about the changes^^)

I honestly prefer vanilla over this as well....can't quite put my finger on as to why but balence aside almost all the time the better player won, now in this mod people seem to be able to stay in the games much longer than they should after losing a lot of the map or squads or both.

Races also seemed to have more "unique playstyles" i've found it much easier lately to learn new races/heros than ever before because everything seems so simple and straightforward.

PS What happened to stormboys in this mod? why do they suck so hard? The nob is better but the stormboys themselves....I saw they got a price reduction but what was changed in regards to their dmg or armour etc. where they just bleed like crazy now...

The lethality of vanilla was what was nerfed in favour of easier unit preservation. Each races unique rape tool was put in line so they don't stand out to give each race a different feel.

I have noticed that some other BS stuff hasnt been nerfed though... Catachan bomb on retreat, Plaque Champion silly global that makes a melee squad into a nuke, etc

Caeltos' aim was to reduce the very fast changes in pace and quick wins in this mod and he's even thought about taking it further. In my opinion as someone who never played retail multiplayer, it seems like a good change as there are fewer 5 minute stomps and the games allow you to use more of the units than you could before/get to the later game, though I can understand if it might make it feel less dynamic.

ChokoBambus wrote:I have noticed that some other BS stuff hasnt been nerfed though... Catachan bomb on retreat, Plaque Champion silly global that makes a melee squad into a nuke, etc

The Touch of Nurgle was nerfed a lot on heretics making it almost pointless to use on them now, and the only other use it has most of the time is to protect retreating squads running through melee.

The Touch of Nurgle was nerfed a lot on heretics making it almost pointless to use on them now, and the only other use it has most of the time is to protect retreating squads running through melee.

ToN on Tics also got a further indirect nerf this patch with the decreased damage for doomblast. It is definitely no longer a "nuke" but is still very useful for retreat, as you mentioned, as well as a source of disruption. The disruption is only really useful if you have other units to actually do something to the disrupted enemy. ToN is no longer the engagement winner it was in vanilla and that's a good thing.

For rangers, and snipers in general, I could see a small passive damage buff once t2 is reached to make their weapons still relevant. However, what I think would be more interesting for rangers is a way larger energy pool, or a removal of cloak energy usage come t2 instead. This would transition them to a very useful utility role versus being a super annoying squad. Having cloaked detectors by themselves is great to pick where and when you want to strike, and they have the holofield and KP abilities that help eldar get into battle at an advantage really make eldar feel like eldar.

Just a thought

Touch of Nurgle can do 0 damage for all I care and still be insane vs low hp high model races simply due to knockback. Heretics + raptors are already unaproachable in melee in tier1, but with this it becomes rather silly.

But ToN was better in retail than it is in Elite, why is it a problem in elite if has been nerfed substantially?

There were no Chaos raptors for heavy tier1 platform pressure. They had grenades to deal with setup teams and the only major threat to banshees, who had much better chasing potential, were heretics and focus fire.

Now Chaos has raptors, CSM are better, and banshees can be swarmed by a Raptor + heretic squad easily. The in combat manouverability is on the Chaos side in Elite.

So, the matchup was much more position based in what engagements you took, there were far less chaos options in tier2 and it was more volatile. On the ELdar side, banshee chasing, WS chasing, shuriken positional play have all been nerfed in some way or another be it by direct nerfs or by additions of new race units.

It actually sounds like match up is even more position-based in Elite.

Your shees can shout to suppress the raptors while your shuri moves to reset up. The shees can either engage the raptors (and will hurt them bad) or pull back while the raptors hopelessly chase the shuri. Raptors do not have the energy for a second jump at lvl 1. Use eldar's mobility - they still have it and can still punish chaos with it.

Your DA(s) and WSE can focus the tics and nade them if they have an AC to wipe or just delay them while shees destroy the raptors. WSE can tie up CSM if your DAs aren't in cover.

It is hard to discuss specific engagement unless you provide more detail about both compositions and upgrades, time in the match, etc. In your example, we don't know the hero which is a pretty major detail. Map will also be important.

edit: I am actually not sure if we talking about T1 or T2 b/c you post mentions both. I am talking about T1.

Made an account just to comment.

I do think that Elite Mod balance is better from my limited experience with the mod (tho I've been playing a fair bit of it recently).

Idk if Choko ever had the joy of playing as Space Marines in high level 1v1 (especially tournaments), but it was a nightmare. I almost felt like being auto-defeated in loading screen versus Lictor Alpha (one of the strongest 1v1 heroes).

I will say that Eldar, Tyranids, and Inquisitor were/are the strongest 1v1 factions in vanilla and to try to deny this is to not know anything about DoW2.
- Like, I wish my faction (SM/Chaos) had an extremely fast, lethal, and easy to use melee unit that could punish players hard that you get right out the gate (banshees...). I can't tell you how many times in the past (and even recently) where I see the unit murder squads on retreat with ease. Not because of some brilliant flanking maneuver or smart use of positioning, but because they simply destroy most units 1 to 1. For example, an ASM squad EASILY loses to a banshee squad in vanilla, despite the huge difference in costs. This scenario creates an extremely frustrating play and imbalanced the match up - requiring an inordinate amount of micro and resources on my part to simply deal with a unit that may single-handedly win the game if I'm not careful (can you tell I'm glad banshees aren't as "good" in Elite).
- Just an example of Eldar 1v1 strength

I for one am glad for extended options this mod opens up.

I have been impressed with how quickly Choko has gone from straight hate, to sharing productive examples of what he's talking about, and proposals for what he sees as problems. Bravo.

I also strongly agree with Vindi that ELITE has a pleasant number of viable builds, and that many "high cheese" aspects of the game have been toned down. Let's be honest : shees can still retreat kill. They just do it worse, but have received other buffs to compensate for this. Is it perfectly balanced? Debatable (and honestly, perfect balance is not something I consider possible or desirable). But Eldar preform reasonably as a whole, and the game as a while has less cheese. I like it like this, and I found Eldar fun to play, and capable of winning if I played well.

In short, I look forward to seeing Chokos opinion evolve, and I hope that they can help Eldar in ELITE be a more fun race, while maintaining balance as much as possible!

Vindicarex wrote:For example, an ASM squad EASILY loses to a banshee squad in vanilla, despite the huge difference in costs. This scenario creates an extremely frustrating play and imbalanced the match up - requiring an inordinate amount of micro and resources on my part to simply deal with a unit that may single-handedly win the game if I'm not careful

I know this feel very hard sm vs eldar was just frustrating so much

Actually that was not rly true. Banshees would win vs ASMs in tier 1 but lose out in tier2 due to the sarge fist attack. Also, ASMs were jump troops so they were sort of cost inefficient vs melee units in tier1. Banshees on the other hand bled much more due to a lower starting HP pool and higher cost, but on the other hand the exarch was much cheaper in vanilla. They also chased better.

I really do not think SM vs Eldar was as bad as you made it out to be, because on the very top lvl of play the Eldar had a slight edge in tier1 but that went the other way late tier 2 and 3. The only commander that was struggling was the TM.

But, scouts had snipers that one show, Eldar had rangers. The MU was far more complex because of it. IMHO. Not that I dislike the Elite matchup, I just think that having sniper wars brought about a whole new level of play and strategy into the game. 1 ranger was ok to pressure scouts, 2 rangers was pushing it because the counter was fast tier 2 and a razorback considering that the Eldar invested 90 power into the rangers. They also did not scale into tier 2. FC countered by wargear, APO outhealed the damage and TM, well.... map dependant.

I fundamentally dislike the current iteration of snipers, especially Rangers. I would much rather restore them to the old values but limit the squad to 1.

I do like new snipers, even if they don't scale very well. There's only so little room for them because they are extremely expensive considering you need the Pathfinder upgrade (whereas I used not to buy it before, to save power) to start suppressing, and cannot genbash.

We only need to make them cheaper, like 25 power Warriors.

Snipers used to ruin the SM mirror matches. Was so annoying and not easily counterable. I'm glad that they were changed.

Can someone explain why gaunts got cheaper and synapse buffs got massively better? Nids were not UP in vanilla now they're borderline silly...what was the thinking behind these buffs?

PaperBaG wrote:Can someone explain why gaunts got cheaper and synapse buffs got massively better? Nids were not UP in vanilla now they're borderline silly...what was the thinking behind these buffs?

Nids are UP now

Aguxyz wrote:Nids are UP now

They are still shit at dealing with an heavy bolter turret in T1 if they can't flank it with termagaunts and it barely gets better in T2. They are also pretty meh at dealing with suppression teams in garrison.

Elite has some races that are clearly over tuned, like Chaos being absolutely batshit. Raptors and unkillable heretic champs that scale them by 20%. Who ever thought that was a good idea must have been smoking something strong.

But it is expected to be heavily Chaos biased in Elite, isnt it?

Heretic Champs were unkillable in Vanilla as well. The killable Heretic Champs were back in CR.

Raptors are highly situational unit that works the best against IG and non-Warlock Eldar. But they can be pretty strong in those MUs. I think Raptor AC should need to buy the power fist + melta pistol with a separate upgrade.

Main problem with Chaos is PM and Havoc autocannon performance.

ChokoBambus wrote:Actually that was not rly true. Banshees would win vs ASMs in tier 1 but lose out in tier2 due to the sarge fist attack.

WTF?!

I really do not think SM vs Eldar was as bad as you made it out to be, because on the very top lvl of play the Eldar had a slight edge in tier1 but that went the other way late tier 2 and 3. The only commander that was struggling was the TM.

Untrue. Till late T2 SM has to just try to cap map and avoid open fight with eldar army.

BTW. nice that Vindicarex is back to DoW 2, even if only for forum. Hope that you will play more Elite not only CoH! ^^

ChokoBambus wrote: unkillable heretic champs that scale them by 20%.

Reassure me here you mean that aspiring champions too often save heretics from being wiped not that they shouldn't be the last model to die right? Because that second thing would just be insane.

ChokoBambus wrote:Elite has some races that are clearly over tuned, like Chaos being absolutely batshit. Raptors and unkillable heretic champs that scale them by 20%. Who ever thought that was a good idea must have been smoking something strong.

But it is expected to be heavily Chaos biased in Elite, isnt it?

Yes, it's clearly intended to be over-tuned. You're about as informed as a potato when it comes to the general stuff, and comparisons to elite choko, but that's to be expected from something who practically couldn't read tournament rules, and fucked over a couple of legit players for the sake of sharing the prize-pool with another guy.

Oh you guys didn't know right? Choko was fraud in DOW2 and participated and played for a german guy, when the tournament was strictly a german-only player tournament. To refresh your memory;

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/in ... pic=707207

If you're going to try to tarnish the balance over my old reputation as a "Chaos" player, then I sure as shit will tarnish yours.

TL;DR
- Heretic AC has been unkilleable for like over 2-3 years now. But this is something new appearantly.
- Heretic AC was 20% for quite a long time. Then they backpackal it down to 15%, but IMPROVED heretic stats (relic) out of the gate. But I'm sure you didn't know because you didn't actually play the game.

General AC changes is as follows

THE NEW HERETIC OVERALL HP CHANGES (WITH AC) = A WHOOPIN -3 HEALTH INFACT. IT'S NOT BETTER. WOW, SUCH SMOKE. MUCH WOW.
Did you know - That heretics deals roughly -3 dps per model now? That's a rough dps loss of -24
>> Effects Bloodlust global performance with heretics
Heretics doomblast now deals 15 damage, from 25. If that's not a big thing, I dunno what is
>> Effects Touch of Nurgle damage output synergy

But oh well, I mean Choko is the expert afterall. If he was in charge, everything would be 100% perfect, and nobody would be mad over anything, and world peace would be achieved.


However, I favor nids over Chaos. As you can clearly see by the win ratio %. This has always been a tyranid mod, and I've been secretly been playing as IamAkhen and Capoch. I've always had a secret fetisch for those bugs.

You mean the guy named Chocolate Dick says vanilla is better and only has a few hours in elite is throwing a temper tantrum without trying out different play-styles. (Theres a vanilla and chocolate joke waiting to come out)

Caeltos Nid fanboi confirmed.

But I'm getting really tired of this back and forth that's now over multiple threads. The forum is not a place to feud.