Dawn of War Codex

I didn't mean they are bad or anything just that their dps is nothing stellar. It is nice but still not very high.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Well looking at their stats they aren't that fantastic damage wise considering how expensive they are:

KCSM dps - 148 power melee | 24 plasma + 5 melta - Speed 6 - health 1513.

Banshee DPS - 135 power melee + 51.43 heavy melee | 12.35 piercing - Speed 6 - health 1073.

Stormboy DPS - 150 power melee + 65 heavy melee | 1.95 piercing - Speed 5 - health 1185.

However they do have a very strong special attack, good ranged damage and HI armour with more health than most other melee squads. They're alright.

Indeed, they're alright. The question you need to ask yourself is, "do they perform for cost/upkeep". The answer is no.

Take it from a guy who tries to use them every chance he gets lol.

Yeah, I kind of agree to be honest. I would like to see a reduction in their power price again because of the fact that their AC is so damn expensive now in elite compared to retail (which was why it was so cheap in retail...).

i still think tex´s suggestion is the best.

lower Upkeep/reinforce cost. (would also even it out with the other 2 mentioned squads)

sk4zi wrote:i still think tex´s suggestion is the best.

lower Upkeep/reinforce cost. (would also even it out with the other 2 mentioned squads)

That's not what he suggested mate - he said they don't perform for the cost. Neither changing upkeep nor reinforce cost is a fix for this.

Tex wrote:Indeed, they're alright. The question you need to ask yourself is, "do they perform for cost/upkeep". The answer is no.

Take it from a guy who tries to use them every chance he gets lol.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Yeah, I kind of agree to be honest. I would like to see a reduction in their power price again because of the fact that their AC is so damn expensive now in elite compared to retail (which was why it was so cheap in retail...).

Agreed. I can very rarely justify them for the 90/30 cost - especially since if your CSM are near lv 2 then TCSM will soon be getting very very strong. And TCSM help counter bitchy melee heroes (LA/WL/etc) that Chaos struggles to deal with.

Panda wrote:Agreed. I can very rarely justify them for the 90/30 cost - especially since if your CSM are near lv 2 then TCSM will soon be getting very very strong. And TCSM help counter bitchy melee heroes (LA/WL/etc) that Chaos struggles to deal with.

Inferno bolters have bad damage modifiers against commander armor, they barely deal more damage (1 dps) than a standard csm squad, you don't use TCSM against commanders.

dance commander wrote:

Panda wrote:Agreed. I can very rarely justify them for the 90/30 cost - especially since if your CSM are near lv 2 then TCSM will soon be getting very very strong. And TCSM help counter bitchy melee heroes (LA/WL/etc) that Chaos struggles to deal with.

Inferno bolters have bad damage modifiers against commander armor, they barely deal more damage (1 dps) than a standard csm squad, you don't use TCSM against commanders.

Wait what? I've seen commanders shredded by Tcsm just like anything else.................

That's probably becaues the AC comes equipped with an inferno bolter as well, and it does respectfully good damage to shi/commanders and such. Whereas the default AC is more oriented towards light infantry.

The AC/EW + MOT really does amplify their overall damage output. If you skip the AC and go with EW + MOT , then you probably won't see that big of a spike damage.

KCSM are excellent. Sure they are more situational than TCSM, but they are flat out good. Not subpar, not meh, not okay. Their dps is a very small part of the whole story. They, like everything else in the game, require synergy to take full advantage of them.

Like look at Raptors. Raptors by themselves are meh. Raptors with tic support are beastly, and are still good in T3. Then KCSM are faster with speed 6, and will already be carrying levels across from T1.

KCSM have a lot of utility beyond just combat. And they are excellent in combat as well. No changes for KCSM plez, I buy KCSM as Chaos whenever I get the chance as it stands.

I think they are fine price wise and everything, kind of like shees, they can bleed you alot or pay off 100x times, I would say they just should get an ability.

chaos's thing is high damage and health, lack of active abilities. i'm not sure what one would give them anyway and how it would be useful and not op.

Is it that crazy to look at a cost reduction for MoK OR a reinforce reduction after MoK upgrade has been completed? I'm not asking for some OP ability like having high speed and being able to boost it even further... that sounds too much like banshees or something .

I'm just asking for consideration on the fact that KCSM cant help but lose models to do their job and by the time that THEY CAN DO THEIR JOB, they are already largely countered, and for the most part relegated to bodyguarding.

All are good ideas (even if discuss about the KCSM isn't the topic of this thread ¬¬) but more than buff them because yes, we maybe need to focus in the design and see what fails and in which way should them receive (or not) a buff.

On the paper, they appear to be a good unit: good power_melee damage, good base speed (6) high HP... but they are simply underused. Why?

I already said my reasons:

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:1. TCSM is a safer upgrade. It's more easy to bleed KCSM models than TCSM, for the KCSM nature. Where TCSM in the worse case can retreat more safely than KCSM, which usually retreat between more (melee)squads, with the danger of retreat grenades, globals, melee hits...

2. KCSM scale worse than TCSM in T3. Where the TCSM can simply shoot and run if the situation turns dangerous, KCSM have to stay in melee to do their job. And well, not sure if is a good idea to keep melee combat against Avatar, GUO, Assault Terminators with/out Lighting Claws, Nobzs, Seer Council, Genestealers with Melee synapse...

3. KCSM have some rivalry in the own Chaos roster: Bloodletters, AC Raptors, Lighting Claws Chaos Terminators... Ok, some of these squads can't do the same damage or have the same HP than KCSM, but have other abilities/characteristics which makes them more attractive to he Chaos player.

4. KCSM in ELITE have more different enemy squads which can deal with them: almost all GK roster, Vanguard Upgrade for ASM, new melee heroes builds...

- In the first point we could do relatively few things, for the KCSM melee design. They are going to be, like other melee squads a high risk high reward squad.

- In the second point we have the same situation as the first point. Except make them have a better leveling stadistics, I can't see other solution.

- In the third point I think we have more possibilities and even the solution. We have in T2 3 melee squads: Bloodletters, AC Raptors and KCSM.

If we decide to buy a melee squad, what can give the KCSM that can't could give the Bloodletters, or the AC Raptors? Which reason could give the KCSM to buy them instead the other two squads?

The same as the main topic of this thread. What can give me/why should I buy the AC first, without buying first a Mark?

If we decide to buy a melee squad, what can give the KCSM that can't could give the Bloodletters, or the AC Raptors? Which reason could give the KCSM to buy them instead the other two squads?

KCSM give you a cheap and very powerful melee squad, yes you heard it here, the overall cost is high but keep in mind that you aren't specifically purchasing a new squad of CSM you are using your T1 squad and upgrading it to provide a very powerful melee squad, and it's cheap when compared to purchasing raptors or letters for that job, especially if you need to purchase an AV squad like plague marines, so you still have a very good melee squad at your disposal.

The same as the main topic of this thread. What can give me/why should I buy the AC first, without buying first a Mark?

There are 2 reasons, one is abit of a quickly dps boost and decent melee, the other is purchasing it first while sending the CSM out when you don't have time or resources to purchase the mark.

Not the best reasons, but like the SM sarge even with the ability it wasn't as much useful as getting other units out.

I'm just asking for consideration on the fact that KCSM cant help but lose models to do their job and by the time that THEY CAN DO THEIR JOB, they are already largely countered, and for the most part relegated to bodyguarding.

You are describing like.... Every single melee unit ever?

Ok. Topic related. I have done something similar in my mod for CSM and Tacs. I gave them a passive charge. In similarity the range and cool down was the same. But the speed increase was 2, and I actually might lower the speed some.

The difference is that is was a passive for the squad. This seems OP I know. But once they get into Melee the charge stops. There are other reasons but that's for a different time and place.

So pertaining to the suggested buff. I agree on the charge as a passive. Since I don't get mark until t3 usually since CSM with AC and EW already fill most of the roles I require. They are my sponge with spikes. They can tank some damage (of course depending on what's shooting/hitting them) deal decent ranged dps, deal respectable Melee dps, stall advances (tank part) when microed awesomely. It might because I usually always get two CSM squads which is why I have a these reasons here. If I could add to this. Increase AC Melee skill by 5.

I only disagree on the ability. If this is supported with MoK worship... I can't say anymore because that would make it OP early t2. Also it would be (to me) better option to target moving set-up teams. And use the raptor to suppress something else. Just what I'd probably do though. Also the ability and the passive charge I am assuming would stack. Would make it too much for low hp infantry squads. Even if it didn't stack they would be able to close the distance of 38 range too quickly. Since what I usually play is CL for chaos and my t1 is tics into 2 CSM and raptors. More than just one suppression ability/squad would be needed.


For the off topic on KCSM. This was the main reason why I didn't like the idea of the ability. KCSM would be performing in the same way that the video's suggestion. Tacs have awesome Melee too (I force Melee a lot with Tacs) but they probably won't get a charge because what the squad can offer in terms of versatility. I agree on the price. Power needs to be lowered to 20 or 25. But the MoK increases Melee skill by 10. Doesn't don't change levels. So a level 2 CSM will have 71 Melee skill with MoK. Increase health by 10 percent. And grants power Melee weapons. Not to mention those plasma pistols, melta gun, when chasing something. I'd say an awesome upgrade. The reason they seem like they need a buff is because they are focused down like the Libby. I do that. When I see MoK CSM I'm like OMG DIE and have everything shoot at them. Especially when I play SM. I don't want them there long. They take apart everything they touch in t2 with the exception of a vehicle.

To sum that up. No buff on KCSM. But yes on a price decrease on the upgrade.

I was on my phone when writing this. Hope it makes some sense.

Ace of Swords wrote:

If we decide to buy a melee squad, what can give the KCSM that can't could give the Bloodletters, or the AC Raptors? Which reason could give the KCSM to buy them instead the other two squads?

KCSM give you a cheap and very powerful melee squad, yes you heard it here, the overall cost is high but keep in mind that you aren't specifically purchasing a new squad of CSM you are using your T1 squad and upgrading it to provide a very powerful melee squad, and it's cheap when compared to purchasing raptors or letters for that job, especially if you need to purchase an AV squad like plague marines, so you still have a very good melee squad at your disposal.

Except if you are playing the Chaos Sorcerer, it's bit more expensive but usually better to pimp up you commander to act as a powerfull melee unit, with the additional of the no bleed resources effect and the gain of some abilities which makes the commander better than the KCSM in melee combat.

So the commander could replace the KCSM, because they almost have the same role, with the exception of the superior speed of the KCSM.

On the other hand, Bloodletters and Raptors could do a role than PC or CL can't: instant counter hwt/ranged squads. Of course, with the correct wargear the PC and CL can do this role toor, but not instantly like the BL or the Raptors, or without receiving on the way tons of damage.

Ace of Swords wrote:

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:The same as the main topic of this thread. What can give me/why should I buy the AC first, without buying first a Mark?

There are 2 reasons, one is abit of a quickly dps boost and decent melee, the other is purchasing it first while sending the CSM out when you don't have time or resources to purchase the mark.

Not the best reasons, but like the SM sarge even with the ability it wasn't as much useful as getting other units out.

Not the best reasons, indeed. The AC do less damage in ranged combat than a regular CSM (5 dps less with Eternal War) and the no decent, but high melee damage it's almost useless because you are never going to be in melee with ranged squads for the lack of melee abilities, and isn't enough good to force a dedicated T2 melee squad.

The Tac Sarge gives:
- More ranged and melee damage to the squad, which in both cases are superior to a regular Tac squad.
- The Tac sarge could do special attacks, and have 70 melee skill, so there are less posibilities to suffer knockback from dedicated melee squad. (which I'm not saying that it's a good idea to force melee combat with dedicated melee squads)
- An ability which can turns a battle. Difficult to use it well, but there is.

wa1243agh wrote:Ok. Topic related. I have done something similar in my mod for CSM and Tacs. I gave them a passive charge. In similarity the range and cool down was the...

Brutal Charge isn't going to stack with Khorne Workshipp.

And not, the ability its not going to be OP, because:
- The 4 seconds ability duration.
- The high cooldown. In the best case, it's going to be at least 60 seconds. In the worst case, more or less 90-95 seconds, for the high energy cost.
- For the high energy cost, any energy drain ability/weapon/whatever could disable the ability.
- The squad is going to do good damage, but make relatively few special attacks for the 60 melee skill.
- The squad can easily counter by suppression, knockback, snare, a dedicated melee squad...

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:If we decide to buy a melee squad, what can give the KCSM that can't could give the Bloodletters, or the AC Raptors? Which reason could give the KCSM to buy them instead the other two squads?

KCSM are beast on their own. They can perform lots of roles. On some maps they can control a lane on their own. They can be that extra bodygaurd unit that you needed but don't have the money for an entire new sqaud.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:The same as the main topic of this thread. What can give me/why should I buy the AC first, without buying first a Mark?

It gives you more HP and more dmg in general.

I just cant really understand the reason of the ability if CSM already get a charge with AC. I mean they aren't a melee squad. Giving them that ability would make them into a more melee squad since you said it yourself, they deal some melee dps. A crazy amount considering they are ranged units. It would be like "To hell with shooting my bolter, imma just smack them with it."

I dont think i am really going to budge on this unless i see game play that supports your claim on it not being OP since something on paper might sound balanced. But would be OP in game, like Fleet. On paper Increased speed with decreased dps sounds fair. But ingame is a monster. Though this ability wont be that Fleet crazy. But i do want to see what it does with player vs player.

I say lower the passive charge speed for a balanced reason. You should be able to kite CSM easily. Not with difficulty.

Not sure but in being easily countered seems obvious. Pretty much everything can be countered. But is easier said than done when there is an army behind that unit, or in front. Or on the side. Or on the other side.

what kcsm do that other chaos squads do not do is chase everything and preform specials 35% of the time.

Also, CS cannot do what KCSM do in melee. He'll got raped by dedicated melee squads like Banshees, no matter what are your escape mechanisms.

And KCSM dont get raped by banshees? bahahaha

No? It can go either way, depending on specials. But with each squad at level 4 Banshees certainly lose.

Dark Riku wrote:KCSM are beast on their own. They can perform lots of roles. On some maps they can control a lane on their own. They can be that extra bodygaurd unit that you needed but don't have the money for an entire new squad.

And these roles can't be made by BL, for example, or a pimp-up commander?

Dark Riku wrote:It gives you more HP and more dmg in general.

Like the 100% of squad leaders. But the Bolt-pistol is weaker than the CSM bolter and the chainsword is underutilized. Not very good reasons.

wa1243agh wrote:I just cant really understand the reason of the ability if CSM already get a charge with AC. I mean they aren't a melee squad. Giving them that ability would make them into a more melee squad since you said it yourself, they deal some melee dps. A crazy amount considering they are ranged units. It would be like "To hell with shooting my bolter, imma just smack them with it."

The combination of the Brutal Charge + passive melee charge is to give to EW AC CSM the opportunity to reach melee combat and take advantage of his, ATM, underutilized good melee damage without being owned (if you use well the ability) for all the plasma damage/aoe present in T2.

wa1243agh wrote:I dont think i am really going to budge on this unless i see game play that supports your claim on it not being OP since something on paper might sound balanced. But would be OP in game, like Fleet. On paper Increased speed with decreased dps sounds fair. But ingame is a monster. Though this ability wont be that Fleet crazy. But i do want to see what it does with player vs player

A bit happens with MoK CSM. People on this thread saying they are wonderful but they are rarely to see them ingame.

I would like to see them ingame, and show how its not OP.

wa1243agh wrote:I say lower the passive charge speed for a balanced reason. You should be able to kite CSM easily. Not with difficulty.

Not sure but in being easily countered seems obvious. Pretty much everything can be countered. But is easier said than done when there is an army behind that unit, or in front. Or on the side. Or on the other side.

Of course, if the combo is implemented and result too much OP, could receive a hit from the nerfhammer. Not the first time in ELITE that something receives a nerf (or a buff) a patch after it was implemented.

Your last phrase is very curious. The same we can say about 90% of the units in the game. Not very easy to counter a Banshee squad obliterating your CSM if you have an autarch smacking your Havocs, the heretics being owned by warpspiders/dire avengers and your Chaos Lord being under a Time field, for example.

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:what kcsm do that other chaos squads do not do is chase everything and preform specials 35% of the time.

Got any evidence to support your claim? Because, AFAIK, KCSM at level 1 have the same Melee Skill as any other dedicated melee squad.

Asmon wrote:No? It can go either way, depending on specials. But with each squad at level 4 Banshees certainly lose.

Depends of the specials, depends of how many Banshees/KCSM snipe the other squad and the buffs.

Still, except the KCSM do a lot of specials and receive very few or have the luck to focus 3 KCSM in one banshee at a time, the numbers said they are going to lose.

KCSM chainaxes have a small probability to do a special, independently of their target's MS. That had been introduced in retail and was never removed.

Video summary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkuTVzU3mOI&feature=youtu.be

Picture for thoughts:



Summary:
Could it be Tzch CSM are over used?

If Tacs can be used well up to tier 3 (with okish sarge ability) why cant csm?

Ideas from Universe and Codex:

CSM can be taken in squads of 20.
CSM without upgrades are representative of Chaos Undivided.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:And these roles can't be made by BL, for example, or a pimp-up commander?

Read the entire thing please -.-

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Like the 100% of squad leaders. But the Bolt-pistol is weaker than the CSM bolter and the chainsword is underutilized. Not very good reasons.

Yes, so why do they need something more? How is the chainsword underutilized? Csm are a ranged unit that can tie up all other ranged units in melee and win.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Got any evidence to support your claim? Because, AFAIK, KCSM at level 1 have the same Melee Skill as any other dedicated melee squad.

Seriously... This is what bothers me the most. You don't fully know what the squad does and yet shout UP. It's a trait they have. They have that kb chance no matter what the enemy MS is.


@Alexander. You can't keep tacs unupgraded throughout the game :p
They will perform poorly later on without any upgrade.

Dark Riku wrote:Seriously... This is what bothers me the most. You don't fully know what the squad does and yet shout UP. It's a trait they have. They have that kb chance no matter what the enemy MS is.

Because when you say something, you have to be 100% sure that what you say is true, or if not you can look like an asshole.

I read all the single attributes with Cope's DOW2 Toolbox from "ebps" and "sbps" about the Tactical Marines. I read all the abilities which any squad have in "ability". I read the attributes for the MoK CSM in "Upgrade". And of course the "wargear" and "Weapon" attributes for the Chain axe.

And guess what. I don't found a single fucking evidence which says that MoK CSM can do more special attacks than any other 70 melee skill squad.

I am wrong? Ok, prove it.

KCSM seem like they pull off a special attack 35% of the time. But Lost Son is correct in that there is nothing that give them a auto special attack. Its all their melee skill. It seems like it because again, the upgrade increase their base melee skill by 10. In t2 the CSM squad is usually level 2. Giving them a 61 melee skill. Now add 10 to that. 71 melee skill.

Doesn't seem like much but that 1 melee skill gives them a better chance to pull off a special. While the enemy unit, if they have a special, has a lower chance to pull one off. The base of special attack being 5% to start. I think I am getting this right. Was in Tuning then UI on cope's tool. I also think numbers and morale has a fact into specials, but i'm not too sure. Id have to look at the UI some more.

As for the ability. I think the charge is enough. Charges helps a lot when trying to get into melee. And they would be the only ranged unit with a charge aside from heros. Not trying to sound like a critic here. Despite how rare the use of the ability would be, from the description of the ability from the video, its seems like you think CSM would never be able to get into melee combat despite have the passive charge. That charge insures melee combat for them unless countered in some way.

What i meant by the last paragraph in my last post is saying one thing at doing it is completely different. It like me saying "I can beat soandso in a 1v1." Well you better prove it. Suppressing a squad is easy, but what about everything that behind it. What about your army? Can you keep up and beat your opponent in a game of strategy? That is this game. That's why i say "Saying one thing and doing it are completely different." Not being offensive about it.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:...I am wrong? Ok, prove it.

It is highly unlikely that it was removed. I'm gonna lab it though.

Dark Riku wrote:

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Like the 100% of squad leaders. But the Bolt-pistol is weaker than the CSM bolter and the chainsword is underutilized. Not very good reasons.

Yes, so why do they need something more? How is the chainsword underutilized? Csm are a ranged unit that can tie up all other ranged units in melee and win.

They can already do that without the AC. The AC helps against melee squads but not much if the melee squad has T2 upgrades.

The unmarked AC probably gives the least value for cost of any squad leader. Think of all the benefits slugga nob, ASM sarge, DA exarch, etc give. The unmarked AC bringing just more melee damage but less ranged damage than a standard model and a special attack is pretty weaksauce. That being said, it's important to not go overboard with teh buffs... making them strong with AC and unmarked is going to increase chaos' flexibility, as chaos will be able to wait longer before committing to an upgrade (i.e. wait to see if an SM player makes pdevs, then upgrades to MoK).

@wa1243agh, don't units get a bonus to melee skill when attacking a moving squad? i.e. if banshees are trying to run past some KCSM to get at some tics, the KCSM will have an increased chance of pulling off a special, right? Maybe that's what people are attributing to the KCSM.