Dawn of War Codex

kcsm don't fill the same role as banshees but they're still quite good. they have a flat 35% chance to special iirc, have heavy armour, and are speed 6 base with a no cooldown charge which makes them incredibly good at chasing things, especially transports and tanks. and in their case the HI armour is actually an advantage. while ranged weapons that deal full or extra damage to HI are handed out to most races like candy come t2, power melee is still relatively rare and melee units that get shot on the way in generally aren't very effective. KCSM also have an advantage there because they're less likely to lose models on the way in and therefore will reach the enemy with their full damage capabilities intact.

not sure why i went off on this tangent.

KCSM don't justify the cost. For 35 req more you get tzeentch, a very solid high-dps upgrade that is much less risky and most of the time much more rewarding. No way does that upgrade justify 90/30 cost and immobile while upgrading. More dps plz.

no way. i'd rather see the req cost get reduced. chaos has enough high dps already.

IIRC, Caeltos increased the req and energy cost because he increases the bonus health of the Mark of Khorne to 15% from 10%.

I would like to see a bigger bonus health instead of a damage increase.

Hell yes that justifies the cost.
can't believe complaining about such a good unit -.-

Dark Riku wrote:Hell yes that justifies the cost.
can't believe complaining about such a good unit -.-

No disruption. Loses to any dedicated melee unit. You pay out of your ass for them. Only thing going for them is high hp. At least a bigger charge range, preferably more dps. They don't even beat sluggas..there's a reason they're like never seen.

Dark Riku wrote:Hell yes that justifies the cost.
can't believe complaining about such a good unit -.-

Because this is a wish list. Don't steal a man's dreams

DJ Raffa wrote:No disruption. Loses to any dedicated melee unit. You pay out of your ass for them. Only thing going for them is high hp. At least a bigger charge range, preferably more dps. They don't even beat sluggas..there's a reason they're like never seen.

There are some reasons.

1. The MoT it's a safer upgrade, not only in T2, but in T3. (except if the enemy goes to a heavy artillery or a heavy melee build). MoK CSM could have serious casualties against T3 units: Nobz, Seer Council, GUO, Avatar, Terminators with or without claws, commanders... A bad retreat, and you are going to lose the entire squad. Meanwhile the MoT CSM could shoot them on a secure cover and if the situation turns nasty, simply retreat with less danger to lose models.

2. The MoT it's a more general upgrade, and the MoK a more situational one. Nobody says no to more pew pew pew power, while more melee power could be usefull only against few builds.

3. The MoK work could be done by other squads. For example, the Bloodletters could do the same work with some support.

Or even better: because BL takes more damage from piercing than MoK, but less from plasma; the Teleport gives them great mobility, and they are a hard HWT counter. Have less health, but they recover HP and energy very quickly under Workshipp, and have an ability which makes them invulnerable; BL do more damage than MoK, and have a (IIRC) bigger knockback area with their special attacks.

4. In economy terms, a well played Bloodletters do less damage to the Chaos economy than a full upgraded MoK CSM.
- Bloodletters don't need upgrades, where CSM needs a lot of upgrades to maximize their power.
- Bloodletters could lose a model easily for their low health, but also the reinforce cost it's cheaper. 55 req 5 energy against 66 req. Yeah, they cost 5 energy to reinforce, but if you lose the AC you have to pay 20 or 25 energy for he.
- Lose a Bloodletters squad is painfull, but even more painfull is lose a MoK EW AC CSM.
- BLoodletters cost 4 less pop than a fully upgraded MoK EW AC CSM. Less pop = less upkeep = more resources.

So yeah, there is at least a bit to discuss.

I kinda agree with Raffa/Nikhel on this one. Tcsm are usually just more flexible and safer choice as you can get high dps power melee via bloodletters with less overall expenses and no time consuming upgrades needed.
Kcsm aren't bad but as they don't stand a chance against any other dedicated T2 melee unit or at least aren't very cost effective in it, they often feel kinda lackluster compared to Tcsm.
This might also be just because I don't know how to utilize Kcsm properly.

Apart from Necrons I think it would be awesome to see more Chaos themed units. What I mean is, depending on who you have as a Hero, the army an available units would change to reflect the Chaos god being championed.

Obviously this would require new models, animations, effects, ect. plus I would have no idea how everything should be balenced, but getting a Bloodthirster for CL, a Changer of Ways for CS, horrors of Tzench for CS and plague fiends for PC would be a neat addition.

Probably a little too out there though, I tend to have alot of ideas like that lol.

Servant of CTan wrote:Apart from Necrons I think it would be awesome to see more Chaos themed units. What I mean is, depending on who you have as a Hero, the army an available units would change to reflect the Chaos god being championed.

Obviously this would require new models, animations, effects, ect. plus I would have no idea how everything should be balenced, but getting a Bloodthirster for CL, a Changer of Ways for CS, horrors of Tzench for CS and plague fiends for PC would be a neat addition.

Probably a little too out there though, I tend to have alot of ideas like that lol.

Haha. I would love to see it too but. Just imagine it Guo,Lord of change (changer of ways) and BloodThirster owning everything

What about a wargear for the LA that removes energy drain from infiltrate?

The Kommando Nob has such a wargear as well as one that gives him an Orky version of Deadly Jump, so why not level the playing field?

Too overpowered? I am a low level noob, so Im not sure how such a wargear would affect the game, but I just found it odd that a mainly ranged character can remove energy drain while a melee character can not.

Or if we don't want the LA to be an exact copy of the KN, what about a wargear that gives him detection? So that way the LA can hunt down pesky squads without having to rely on WB?

I dont see how new super units would be op in any way , changer of ways would be tankier version of doom malantai , bloodthirster would be flying bloodthirsty avatar without doom while guo will remain the tankiest and the most useless super unit as it should be .

What ? guo is the best melee super unit ever. And really more super units to chaos would be unfair to other races and OP. 1 race with 4 super units (LR phobos too)
and a race with 1 super unit (orks,eldar,SM,nids,ig,gk)

Chaos never had been fair and that how chaos works . And still u can add other super units for other races later .

Servant of CTan wrote:What about a wargear for the LA that removes energy drain from infiltrate?

The Kommando Nob has such a wargear as well as one that gives him an Orky version of Deadly Jump, so why not level the playing field?

Too overpowered? I am a low level noob, so Im not sure how such a wargear would affect the game, but I just found it odd that a mainly ranged character can remove energy drain while a melee character can not.

Or if we don't want the LA to be an exact copy of the KN, what about a wargear that gives him detection? So that way the LA can hunt down pesky squads without having to rely on WB?

i suspect that this would be rather easy to get away with; standard lictor already has that, not sure if the tooltip has been fixed or not yet.

The following are wishes and not things I would Propose in the balance forum because I don't think people will agree with them

Wish one: improve vehicle survival by reducing dominance of las/beamy setup teams. I understand that setup teams damage is balance against their set up and tear down times but on laney team maps they rip up vehicles too fast. I would probably nerf their damage 10% and reduce the rear damage on vehicles from 1.5x to 1.25x. This would also nerf heavy mellee vs vehicles

Wish two: a tier one sniper type damage for Orks so they can force off apothecary. I am actually thinking stikkbommas in tier one. Swap them with storm boyz. Give them one volley of stikks in tier one upgrading to two volleys in tier two

Wish three: plasma for Orks in tier two. Maybe An exclusive alternative upgrade to big shootas. This is just a wish based on butthurt, not a rational suggestion

Wish four: reduce the mellee modifier on retreat to 0.85. I just hate the way you can retreat from a ranged fight but Not a mellee fight. I actually modded this and instead gave charging units a 30% reduced received accuracy modifier to balance mellee vs ranged units. It played really well. I would love to see this but don't expect others to agree.

KanKrusha wrote:The following are wishes and not things I would Propose in the balance forum because I don't think people will agree with them

Wish one: improve vehicle survival by reducing dominance of las/beamy setup teams. I understand that setup teams damage is balance against their set up and tear down times but on laney team maps they rip up vehicles too fast. I would probably nerf their damage 10% and reduce the rear damage on vehicles from 1.5x to 1.25x. This would also nerf heavy mellee vs vehicles

Wish two: a tier one sniper type damage for Orks so they can force off apothecary. I am actually thinking stikkbommas in tier one. Swap them with storm boyz. Give them one volley of stikks in tier one upgrading to two volleys in tier two

Wish three: plasma for Orks in tier two. Maybe An exclusive alternative upgrade to big shootas. This is just a wish based on butthurt, not a rational suggestion

rofl. las cannons (setup av) can't move they need to setup. I don't see a problem with setup av teams. Stikks in t1-OP. And why stormboys in t2 ?. plasma for orks ? they already have weirdboy his basic attack does plasma cannon damage

it has less to do with setup times and more to do with vehicles being the most fragile units in the game. against non-av damage they're effectively invulnerable but as soon as av damage hits them they die rather fast. i'd like them to have more survivability but with the way they're implemented now that won't work out well.

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:

Servant of CTan wrote:What about a wargear for the LA that removes energy drain from infiltrate?

The Kommando Nob has such a wargear as well as one that gives him an Orky version of Deadly Jump, so why not level the playing field?

Too overpowered? I am a low level noob, so Im not sure how such a wargear would affect the game, but I just found it odd that a mainly ranged character can remove energy drain while a melee character can not.

Or if we don't want the LA to be an exact copy of the KN, what about a wargear that gives him detection? So that way the LA can hunt down pesky squads without having to rely on WB?

i suspect that this would be rather easy to get away with; standard lictor already has that, not sure if the tooltip has been fixed or not yet.

Good point, I forgot about the standard Lictor.

Would it be OP if such a wargear were available in tier 1 though?

For the wish list:

Heretics retreating out of Worship because of the problem with Canticle of absolusion/dark excomunication, bascly if they are worshipping and one of these 2 abilities get activated they wont be able to get out of worship and thus they cannot retreat.

Ace of Swords wrote:Heretics retreating out of Worship because of the problem with Canticle of absolusion/dark excomunication, bascly if they are worshipping and one of these 2 abilities get activated they wont be able to get out of worship and thus they cannot retreat.

You might wanna post stuff like this in a more serious thread.

Although the suggestion has already come up
and Lulgrim was gonna look at the possibilities.

How would people feel if units could not jump or teleport if suppressed? I am thinking of ASMS who can be lured to jump into a trap within a HWT firing arc but can then do a second jump to counter the HWT.

Jump troops counter setup teams. If Setup teams could counter jump troops, it would be nigh on impossible to counter layered setup teams with jump troops.

Yeah dat would be op . 3 x hwt builds every game .

Yeah that would make jump troops if not worthless then very bad. Considering that hwts are not the only source of suppression. Shees, tics, shootas etc. would effectively nullify jump troops completely.

Servant of CTan wrote:
Would it be OP if such a wargear were available in tier 1 though?

yes, but t2 would be fine. LA would be an absolute bitch in 1v1s if he could always walk around cloaked from t1 onwards.

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:

Servant of CTan wrote:
Would it be OP if such a wargear were available in tier 1 though?

yes, but t2 would be fine. LA would be an absolute bitch in 1v1s if he could always walk around cloaked from t1 onwards.

What about a detection wargear in tier 1, OP as well?

you'd have to give it to every hero and it would still have to be bought. afaik the inq is the only one with wargear that detects and she didn't have the servo skull in retail.

Servo skull is a detector ? or just the ability ?
I don't think LA should get a detector wargear.
Warrior broods are detectors and venom broods too and almost everytime you have one of those units

What
Change heretic squad name to cultists

Why
The term 'heretic' is too broad. A human can be called heretic by just insulting the emperor or by fighting against the imperium of man.

Cultists on the other hand are a group of religious fanatics who worship dark gods. They are an organised group which go to shrines to appease chaos through rituals, worship, sacrafices etc.