Dawn of War Codex

Kvn wrote:I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over here, but the reason people were complaining about them so much in the past was due to their 30% damage resistance. That was removed, and their regular infantry armor was replaced with heavy infantry. This is an absolutely massive hit to their survivability.

You call them durable, but they only have 180 hp of HI per model. That's less than Dark Reapers who have 200. People have constantly said that DR are too frail, even with their recent health buff, and yet a squad with 20 less hp which has to get up close and personal with their targets are somehow considered tanky?

Problem is that the 6.5 base speed keeps them safe.

Kvn wrote:As for your point on av, half the things you listed simply aren't viable as a strong av source. D-cannons do little to vehicles now that their damage was nerfed, since the aoe doesn't hit them properly. Fire Prisms are not a dedicated av source on their own. Their a supplementary source, due to being a disruption focused tank. Not weak enough to be soft av, but not strong enough to be a flat out counter either. Autarch fusion gun is a niche purchase at the best of times, usually only good for hunting down artillery due to her insane mobility. It isn't going to do anything impressive against tanks, walkers, or any durable vehicles. Haywire is an incredibly expensive snare given you need a frail, high cost, high bleed, anti infantry unit in order to use it. WL sword isn't all that impressive considering it lost a good chunk of survivability in the last patch. You're usually better off with a Falcon.

D-cans are still a potent AV source, their damage didn't get nerfed. It actually does 10 more damage now if you stand still.
And that's against single models, it's even better versus multiple ones standing still.
Fire prism are very much a dedicated AV source, all you needs is sight range.
The Autarch gun is there to help finish things of or to chase the lower HP vehicles indeed.
Haywire expensive? °_O frail unit? °_O You realise warp spider can teleport and that the haywire grenade disables vehicle weapons, right?
Yeah, because the wraithlord's HP matters when you are smacking something haywired.

Kvn wrote:Eldar is a faction based around a lot of light or semi-light av options. That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but to say that all of these things are dedicated vehicle killers is just silly.

Funny, I find this statement silly.

Kvn wrote:People don't overlook Dark Reapers because of Fire Dragons... I have no idea where that idea came from. People overlook Dark Reapers because they're a fragile anti-HI unit, similar to how the Spiders are a fragile anti-infantry unit, who don't have a means of escaping once the enemy catches them off guard. They bleed a lot, and their primary targets aren't often in great enough numbers to warrant them being purchased over something like Wraithguard or a Falcon.

Reapers are not your damage sponge, their range should be an indicator of that.
Combined with their ability they are survivable. Don't use them as your frontline squad.
Again, warp spider can teleport out of danger ...

Kvn wrote:Circling around to your initial point, there are plenty of ways to counter Fire Dragons. If you don't want to fight them in melee, buy plasma/inferno weaponry. People are stuck in the mindset that plasma = bad against Eldar, but if you're fighting spam, it's an easy way to absolutely ruin the opponent's economy. That power bleed might not look like much to you, but it's a huge detriment to the Eldar eco. Other than that, traditional means of control, minus knockback, still work just fine. Suppression teams may need to shoot them a little longer, but they aren't immune. if your opponent buys Fire Dragons instead of something like Wraithguard, that's a good thing. It means they're opening themselves up to a lot of pain in an attempt to get out a dedicated av unit.

The problem is the commander buffs/synergies and their base speed of 6.5 while being anti all damage.
Plasma is still a bad purchase versus Eldar. It's not a good idea to invest in your army to just deal with 1 enemy unit.
Traditional means of control? Minus knockback Not all races have it easy with that.

Dark Riku wrote:
Problem is that the 6.5 base speed keeps them safe.

Being one and a half units faster than the standard isn't some kind of shield, especially on a short range skirmisher. Bullets don't care how quick you are.

Dark Riku wrote:D-cans are still a potent AV source, their damage didn't get nerfed. It actually does 10 more damage now if you stand still.
And that's against single models, it's even better versus multiple ones standing still.
Fire prism are very much a dedicated AV source, all you needs is sight range.
The Autarch gun is there to help finish things of or to chase the lower HP vehicles indeed.
Haywire expensive? °_O frail unit? °_O You realise warp spider can teleport and that the haywire grenade disables vehicle weapons, right?
Yeah, because the wraithlord's HP matters when you are smacking something haywired.

D-cannon AoE doesn't hit vehicles properly, as I said. This is something which was brought up almost immediately after the change, and still persists to this day. If the vehicle happens to be moving, it's negated entirely.

Fire Prisms most certainly are not. A dedicated AV source is something you rely on for your core damage output. FP does decent damage, but is incredibly frail, and rather clunky to move around. You really don't want to rely on it for your main source of AV.

Let's look at the cost. Warp Spiders with the Aspect cost 490/60. I'd call that pretty expensive for a better melta-bomb. Of course, nobody runs them without their Exarch, so that pushes the cost up to 575/75. So yes. Very expensive. They do a lot of AI damage, but if you're buying them for the Haywire, that isn't a priority. As for their durability, they have 180 hp of basic infantry armor. That's fragile come T2. There really isn't any debating that. Teleporting towards a target vehicle puts them right in the enemy's lines, exposing them to a lot of fire, which hurts them quite badly.

It does given that there are likely going to be things shooting at the Wraithlord, and Haywire doesn't last forever. Given that, in your situation, the Eldar player spent a minimum of 915/160 in T2, it would be reasonable to assume that the other player would have an AV source to deal out damage. That is, of course, speculation based around a theoretical scenario, but it will often be the case.

Dark Riku wrote:Funny, I find this statement silly.

You can find it as silly as you like. It's the truth.

Dark Riku wrote:Reapers are not your damage sponge, their range should be an indicator of that. Combined with their ability they are survivable. Don't use them as your frontline sqaud.
Again, warp spider can teleport out of danger ...

Never said they were. I said they were fragile, and had no escape mechanism when the enemy closed in, which a skilled player will do. A la jump troops, fast attacks, artillery, etc.

The ability to teleport doesn't make them less fragile or costly to reinforce. You get less opportunity to shoot at them, but the opportunity you do get will be no less lethal.

Dark Riku wrote:The problem is the commander buffs/synergies and their base speed of 6.5 while being anti all damage.
Plasma is still a bad purchase versus Eldar. It's not a good idea to invest in your army to just deal with 1 enemy unit.
Traditional means of control? Minus knockback Not all races have it easy with that.

Then let me name a few off the top of my head. Probably missed quite a lot, but here's what I've got right now:

SM - Shotgun Blast (soft control, suppression), Suppression teams, Libby Smite, Plasma gun tacs, Thunder Hammer FC (tracking special works wonders even if it doesn't knock them down), Predator tank, Land Raider.

Orks - Big Shootas (suppression on demand), Slugga boy melee (swamp em/WAAAGH/frazzle for speed boosts), Zzzaap, Storm Boy stun, Looted tank, (those aoe shells do massive damage to FD), Flash Gitz with Blastas, Battle Wagon.

Eldar - Banshees, Shuri platform, hero control abilities (don't feel like going through them all at the moment), Dark Reapers, D-Cannon (so long as you can lock them down with said hero abilities), Seer Council.

Tyranids - Crippling Poison, Genes/horma/warrior melee (usually need two or more of the combination to prevent kiting), HT venom cannon, Zoan (so long as it's well microed), VenomFex, Neurothrope (same as Zoan).

Chaos - Doomblast (still suppresses, though damage is negligible), Havocs, MoT CSM, MoK CSM, plethora of Sorc tricks, Bile Spewer, Autocannon(s), Bloodletters (so long as well controlled), Chaos Pred.

IG - HWT, Plasma guns, Inq stuns, Sentinel stomp, LG/LC buffs for huge bursts of focus fire, Kasrkin with plasma, Leman russ base or plasma (vanquisher isn't ideal, but still snipes models).

All races have some means of countering Dragons. Not all are ideal, or particularly easy to use, but they are available. As for plasma being bad against Eldar, if you want to counter multiple Dragons, you buy plasma. It pays for itself very quickly with the models it picks off and the field presence you gain by forcing them to retreat. Even against LI units, it still isn't terrible as it generally has a higher base dps than the other weapons.

Now, it's late, I'm very tired, and I'm genuinely afraid of this turning into another back and forth that doesn't go anywhere. For that reason, I'm going to sign off this before it begins. You're free to make your point if you don't agree with what I've said, but I'm not going to be responding. I apologize if that's considered poor form, but going from past experience, our debates don't tend to make progress.

Kvn wrote:Being one and a half units faster than the standard isn't some kind of shield, especially on a short range skirmisher. Bullets don't care how quick you are.

/facedesk

Kvn wrote:D-cannon AoE doesn't hit vehicles properly, as I said. This is something which was brought up almost immediately after the change, and still persists to this day. If the vehicle happens to be moving, it's negated entirely.

Problem is I don't believe a word you say

Kvn wrote:Fire Prisms most certainly are not. A dedicated AV source is something you rely on for your core damage output. FP does decent damage, but is incredibly frail, and rather clunky to move around. You really don't want to rely on it for your main source of AV.

Fire Prims not a dedicated AV source, suuuuure brah.
@WS, except ofcource they sit/tp into cover and can TP away.

Kvn wrote:You can find it as silly as you like. It's the truth.

That's an interesting way of spelling a lie.

Kvn wrote:Never said they were. I said they were fragile, and had no escape mechanism when the enemy closed in, which a skilled player will do. A la jump troops, fast attacks, artillery, etc.

Sure, it's not like the Eldar race has extremely good counter initiators and the best setupteam in their roster. Oh wait, they have shees and shurycans.

Kvn wrote:The ability to teleport doesn't make them less fragile or costly to reinforce. You get less opportunity to shoot at them, but the opportunity you do get will be no less lethal.

Cool story brah, please tell me more how a TP unit is more prone to bleed than one without.

Good decision because all I'm hearing is nonsense.

Thanks Forest! I'll try some of these tips out. Really appreciate the replays. Time to study up me thinks.

*puts on big boy pants*

And yeh, I realise that 2 x MoT CSM is probably the best way to really make an Eldar player panic since they can out range and out damage FD's but I just can't justify spending 75 power and i dunno how much req x 2 to deal with them - getting to T3 too would just take too long if i needed Letters, PM or Dred. Also, I tend not to engage Eldar at range since they are pretty damn good at it and i prefer messing up their day with melee. I'll try chains to pin them down + Doombolts + MoT CSM to force them off quick.

Also, Kvn, i have to agree with Riku here on pretty much everything - especially against the idea that Eldar don't have excellent or dedicated AV options. But just quickly:

Fd's speed makes them more survivable, they can kite melee units for gods sake!

D-cannons are awesome, you can argue the fine points but their range and damage are certainly nothing to scoff at.

The WL is one of if not THE best walker in the game straight out of base. In terms of survivability, it has more HP than a Deff Dred and the same (has this been changed?) as a Chaos Dred but with a FAR superior weapon in terms of damage. AND light AV. That is good man.

FP is frail because it's fast as hell and has great range so it can just stay the hell away from everything. 'Clunky'? Really?

Teleporting is awesome. Not all races get this.

As for Chaos:

You will never get close enough to doomblast at T2. Like, ever. Fds will shred them to pieces, as well they should. Or they just kite forever.

FD's have 200 courage, making Havoks less effective. Not an 'i win' unit to get at all.

MoK CSM also get annihilated on approach, you have to ambush and again FD's 6.5 means they can kite soooooooo good. Good luck with that.

A Pred is a vehicle. FD's are designed to destroy vehicles. Get vehicle to destroy AV... hmmmm...

It's really not that anyone is saying the counter units aren't available, it's that they just aren't as threatened as other units of the same type would be. They have almost no drawbacks whatsoever - they are cheap, high damage output, incredible MS, immunity to most forms of KB, decent health, high courage, perfect OTM accuracy and excellent armour. Saying 'just use plasma' is great and all but that doesn't mean you can ignore these other benefits that make them unique compared to every other unit in the game - a damage advantage is great but it doesn't somehow void these other qualities.

They NEED a big downside to having all this awesome goodness - something to take advantage of that can really hurt them. HI armour was a step in the right direction but it still isn't balanced against their advantages enough IMHO. And 2 x FD's should just not be allowed, it makes games less interesting and allows the player to just double up on an all round good unit rather than be forced to choose what they want - AV or plasma dps. I would say movement speed or cost are the two things that need to be addressed.

Black Maw wrote:And yeh, I realise that 2 x MoT CSM is probably the best way to really make an Eldar player panic since they can out range and out damage FD's but I just can't justify spending 75 power and i dunno how much req x 2 to deal with them - getting to T3 too would just take too long if i needed Letters, PM or Dred. Also, I tend not to engage Eldar at range since they are pretty damn good at it and i prefer messing up their day with melee. I'll try chains to pin them down + Doombolts + MoT CSM to force them off quick.

You don't need to by the AC for them to be effective. That would make the power cost for upgrading the squads to be 90 in total. The same cost of two Dragon squads with Exarch, plus the added power cost of bleeding FD models which CSM won't suffer from, being rec only to reinforce.

Melee still works quite well so long as you play the positioning game. Put your melee between the Dragons and their target. They either can't attack your vehicles, or are forced to run the gauntlet, putting them in charge range.

Black Maw wrote:Fd's speed makes them more survivable, they can kite melee units for gods sake!

Yes. But it does not protect them from being shot to pieces which is the point I was trying to dispute. They need to get up close and personal. The ability to kite is not exclusive to them alone.

Black Maw wrote:D-cannons are awesome, you can argue the fine points but their range and damage are certainly nothing to scoff at.

The point being disputed was their damage against vehicles, namely the aoe not hitting properly. If you can't stand to take my word for it, look back in the forums. There are plenty of other players who brought up that point soon after its implementation.

Black Maw wrote:The WL is one of if not THE best walker in the game straight out of base. In terms of survivability, it has more HP than a Deff Dred and the same (has this been changed?) as a Chaos Dred but with a FAR superior weapon in terms of damage. AND light AV. That is good man.

...Really? You judge it based on having more hp than a fast attack walker that costs a bit over half as much, and being better in melee than a walker with a ranged starting weapon? It has 1000 hp base, no upgrade to increase that. Wraithbone is T3, 35 power, and often not worth the investment, Brightlance offers modest ranged av for 30 power, good for chasing down low vehicles or pressuring transports. Neither shoulder mounted weapon is a replacement for a dedicated ranged weapon though, meaning it is always a melee oriented walker.

SM and Chaos melee dreds are both at 1200 hp dealing 100 heavy melee dps. They cost 450/120 and 510/150 (with mok) respectively. They also come with the control abilities from Emperor's Fist and the power boost of Blood Rage.

Wraithlord has 1000 hp, 85 melee dps, costs 420/100 out of the gate (or 520/125 with shuri 520/130 with brightlance), can get Wraithbone in T3 for an additional 100/35 bringing it to 620/160 or 620/165.

So no. It's definitely not the "best walker in the game". It has its uses, but there's a reason you rarely see them nowadays. That 200 hp loss was a pretty big deal for a melee only walker.

Black Maw wrote:FP is frail because it's fast as hell and has great range so it can just stay the hell away from everything. 'Clunky'? Really?

It's the second slowest of the tank equivalents being 6.75 base (unless you count the Carnifex) and has the issue of being a hover vehicle who's pathing needs more space than the size of the model. So yes. Clunky. 500 hp with no survivability upgrades. Long range to help compensate. Less outright killing potential in exchange for disruption. Keep in mind, the army it's hiding behind has very little tanking capability and likes to work with a constantly shifting battle line. Not ideal for a tank-like artillery vehicle to operate with.

Black Maw wrote:Teleporting is awesome. Not all races get this.

And they're both incredibly frail and very costly to compensate.

Black Maw wrote:As for Chaos:

You will never get close enough to doomblast at T2. Like, ever. Fds will shred them to pieces, as well they should. Or they just kite forever.

Yes you will. Play the positioning game. It's about being in the right place at the right time to counteract your opponent's movements.

Black Maw wrote:FD's have 200 courage, making Havoks less effective. Not an 'i win' unit to get at all.

I would really appreciate it if you didn't put nonsensical words in my mouth. I never said they were an 'I win' button. I said they were a helpful counter, which they are. Dragons can still be suppressed, and if you catch them at short range, that extra courage doesn't make much difference. It's mainly a boon when they're at a distance, which, given their short range fusion guns, won't be ideal for them.

Black Maw wrote:MoK CSM also get annihilated on approach, you have to ambush and again FD's 6.5 means they can kite soooooooo good. Good luck with that.

Can you guess what I'm going to say here? Yes. Positioning. If you charge headlong you're going to have a bad time. Eldar is the race which specializes in counteracting those kinds of things. Play smart. That's how you have to play against them. It will work wonders.

Black Maw wrote:A Pred is a vehicle. FD's are designed to destroy vehicles. Get vehicle to destroy AV... hmmmm...

A Pred is a vehicle with base 7.25 speed and large amounts of explosive dps with splash damage. Get this. Tanks ruin Dragons. They outshoot them and can kite quite effectively. This isn't a rock-paper-scissors game. Use your head, keep up your micro, and that Pred will kill Dragons all day long.

Black Maw wrote:It's really not that anyone is saying the counter units aren't available, it's that they just aren't as threatened as other units of the same type would be. They have almost no drawbacks whatsoever - they are cheap, high damage output, incredible MS, immunity to most forms of KB, decent health, high courage, perfect OTM accuracy and excellent armour. Saying 'just use plasma' is great and all but that doesn't mean you can ignore these other benefits that make them unique compared to every other unit in the game - a damage advantage is great but it doesn't somehow void these other qualities.

Go back and look at the rest of the lengthy discussions that have been had here. They have pitiful health, HI is not a boon for them, they only have 100% FotM with their ability, their courage only makes a difference in specific situations, and they are incredibly vulnerable to plasma/inferno damage.

Black Maw wrote:They NEED a big downside to having all this awesome goodness - something to take advantage of that can really hurt them. HI armour was a step in the right direction but it still isn't balanced against their advantages enough IMHO. And 2 x FD's should just not be allowed, it makes games less interesting and allows the player to just double up on an all round good unit rather than be forced to choose what they want - AV or plasma dps. I would say movement speed or cost are the two things that need to be addressed.

They. Do. Have. A. Weakness. They bleed like absolute mad, have NO base abilities to help them on approach, possess a purely parasitic relationship with the rest of the Eldar army, and lose relevance in T3 against tanks and heavy hitting infantry. What you are doing at this point is ignoring their downsides.

I'm going to say to you what I said to the OP. Try using them yourself. You're arguments seem to come from a purely external source, which this will fix. You'll see how other people counter them, and learn how to better predict what the opponent is going to do when using them. They aren't anywhere near as scary as you're making them out to be.

Kvn wrote:It's the second slowest of the tank equivalents being 6.75 base (unless you count the Carnifex) and has the issue of being a hover vehicle who's pathing needs more space than the size of the model. So yes. Clunky. 500 hp with no survivability upgrades. Long range to help compensate. Less outright killing potential in exchange for disruption. Keep in mind, the army it's hiding behind has very little tanking capability and likes to work with a constantly shifting battle line. Not ideal for a tank-like artillery vehicle to operate with.

An army behind shields take no damage, rangers are also a thing, ...

Kvn wrote:Yes you will. Play the positioning game. It's about being in the right place at the right time to counteract your opponent's movements.

You can't play the positioning game against eldar. And even if they get to melee range they can keep chasing the vehicles with their 6.5 speed and not care about the pistol hits they get, only way to counter it is by ramming your tank into the dragons and then tie them up. Big problem with that is that any other AV unit will now fuck up your vehicle.

Kvn wrote:Can you guess what I'm going to say here? Yes. Positioning. If you charge headlong you're going to have a bad time. Eldar is the race which specializes in counteracting those kinds of things. Play smart. That's how you have to play against them. It will work wonders.

Kappa

Kvn wrote:A Pred is a vehicle with base 7.25 speed and large amounts of explosive dps with splash damage. Get this. Tanks ruin Dragons. They outshoot them and can kite quite effectively. This isn't a rock-paper-scissors game. Use your head, keep up your micro, and that Pred will kill Dragons all day long.

Have you even read the rest of the posts? Gates, haywire, heroes, and so many more options ...

Kvn wrote:..., have NO base abilities to help them on approach, ...

I spy with my little eye a lie, passive kb immunity not help enough for you?

Was curious to see what's new here... aaand yet another "FD OP" friendly thread, it's Christmas all year !

Just wanted to add something specific to SM (said to struggle against Fire Dragons as a KB-relying faction). I have seen 3 squads inta wiped at full health by a single P-dev shot. Heretics, 2.4 Dark Reapers, 2.5 Fire Dragons (no leader). This is a rather binary outcome for a short engagement (in a mod that made a good job at making things less brutal). It means P-devs can create a large, very hazardous area where a tank can retreat to after landing a few shots. If the FD launch the chase, even at buffed speed, to be successful they need to chase the tank in a straight line or be outpaced. They can tank a bit of residual damage from other squads, but time plays against them once they commit and are focused.
Once the chase is on, if the vehicle enters the P-dev zone in a straight trajectory... the best players will hear the noise, change the Fire Dragons trajectory and avoid the fateful blue ball, but most likely lose the window of opportunity to kill the tank as they start to spend too much time exposed in the open. Others (myself) will simply look for their Fire dragon squad, swearing it was there a second before.

Just throwing in additional material, at least what I would fear as eldar. I'm not saying it's a perfect deterministic scenario it-always-happens-this-way (who would anyway ^^), but I think it widens the tools and situations for the SM player in addition to what has been said (and gives more stuff to care about to the slightly saturated eldar mind). Thoughts, far fetched ?

cheers

Thibix Magnus wrote:I have seen 3 squads inta wiped at full health by a single P-dev shot.

3 fire dragons blobbed on 1 point, great example. Kappa.
I've seen scouts melee down a dreadnought

Veyr far fetched if you ask me indeed Assumes you can afford T3 and a tank in a serious 1v1, it's also very map dependant, also assumes that the Eldar has no hero to tie up the pdev or doesn't drop an autarch, etc, etc.

I think it is time to remember to keep in civil and constructive before it goes to the point mods need to start editing posts or some other moderation stuff. k?

The problem with Fire Dragons is that they are able to outshoot anti-infantry squads while being one of the best AV units in the game. Eldar units should be highly specialized, not generalist brawlers.

The thing about fusion guns, i.e. melta weapons, is that they're intended to melt everything, infantry and vehicles alike. In the Tabletop they're balanced with an incredibly short range and they used to I think lack Fleet of Foot. I'm unaware of the later Codex editions, though. You're meant to outrange them or drop a same-turn-assault monster on their faces.

What is the range on them in ELITE? As they're a new unit here, I don't really have any vanilla comparisons to go on. Surely that could be tweaked instead of artificially gating their requirement to T3 and making what should be a dedicated high-damage counter even less available.

Not a fan of moving them to T3. Rather tone them down in T2 where they have a more appropriate place.

I have an spesific idea but I don't know can the modders make it ; give them their own damage type.

Eldar are an army like; a squad exists to counter something but nothing else. It is not like this in DoW2 I know it already. But lets take examples.

Dark Reapers = Anti-H.I. They are good vs infantry too but you don't want to get them.
Warp Spiders = Anti-Infantry. THey are not good at something else in combat.
Banshees = They are only for melee combat. So they don't have other stuffs like vehicle stuns like ASM.

And you can find more in the lore like Striking Scorpions and other stuff too. So, why Fire Dragons have melta guns after all? I know it is a good idea and I liked it in the first place, but the community is too butthurt about it so here is my idea; in the first DoW, they were only for mid range anti-vehicle unit. They are like Tankbustaz I mean. Is it possible to make a damage type for them that only counters vehicles heavly?

Dark Riku wrote:

Thibix Magnus wrote:I have seen 3 squads inta wiped at full health by a single P-dev shot.

3 fire dragons blobbed on 1 point, great example. Kappa.
I've seen scouts melee down a dreadnought

haha thanks for answering but Kappa wants some rest mate, I could have specified I meant 3 types of squad (sorry if it sounded confusing), you might have assumed I wouldn't consider 3 squads blobbed as something worth mentioning

Dark Riku wrote:Veyr far fetched if you ask me indeed Assumes you can afford T3 and a tank in a serious 1v1, it's also very map dependant, also assumes that the Eldar has no hero to tie up the pdev or doesn't drop an autarch, etc, etc.

ok... without a lot of experience about tactical discussions, I would think though that being map dependant or susceptible to being tied up is not enough to utterly disqualify a squad as a viable answer to a given challenge, but that's my very personal opinion eh... I don't exactly get the issue with the tank, people were arguing just now about Preds against FD (and my suggestion applies as cover for transports too). Might still not be an optimal choice ofc.

firatwithin wrote:I have an specific idea but I don't know can the modders make it ; give them their own damage type.

It would definitely encourage more people to get DRs when they need to deal with HI or WG (since they still do that nice splash damage against infantry too) if FDs did less damage to regular infantry. Another thing I was thinking about is that most AV units really loose their relevance when the enemy's vehicle is destroyed i.e. lascannons, rocket launchers etc. but fire dragons don't really suffer all that much from this due to not having any damage penalty against... well anything. Structures maybe? It makes them a pretty safe choice since your not forced to put them on capping duty - you can still do excellent damage against HI and use their speed to keep 'em safe. Although I realise units like plague marines also have nice perks like their death explosion, they do loose their damage output sharply since they are dedicated AV.

But making an entirely new damage type? I mean, is that easily feasible? Or the easiest way to tweak them? It might just be better to adjust their other attributes to get the balance right. I'd also just like to establish that moving them to T3 is not something I'm in favour of - T2 is a great place for them tactically. I still think either:

1. Increase their cost a little to dissuade people from getting them as opposed to more specialised units like WG or DR and to punish a play who gets two hard (plus that bleed is gunna suck big time)

2. Reduce their speed to make them more vulnerable to long range fire

But that's just my two cents.

To add a new damage type is easy, though that's not the solution I'd pick. I'd rather start by decreasing their range or their speed.

+1 to Asmon

Since the range is not the problem, I say reduce the speed. It would fix a lot of issues all at once by providing many options for counterplay.

Why not give them brightlances with reduced damage ?
They would turn into an anti AV only unit, remove the power cost and maybe add an aspect for t3 to get scorching beam or snare

Chiro wrote:Why not give them brightlances with reduced damage ?
They would turn into an anti AV only unit, remove the power cost and maybe add an aspect for t3 to get scorching beam or snare

That is neither fitting the role of Fire Dragons (mobile AV option; in vanillia, all Eldar AV were slow and impractical) nor fitting the lore of Eldar.


Also, Fire Dragons are not fitting for T3. You need heavy infantrys on T3 if you will ever get, not only armor type I say. I still count Seer Council as heavy infanty no matter how wrong it is. Fire Dragons are fitting perfectly for T2.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Since the range is not the problem, I say reduce the speed. It would fix a lot of issues all at once by providing many options for counterplay.

I support this idea, and also Asmons apart from range decrease.

firatwithin wrote:

Chiro wrote:Why not give them brightlances with reduced damage ?
They would turn into an anti AV only unit, remove the power cost and maybe add an aspect for t3 to get scorching beam or snare

That is neither fitting the role of Fire Dragons (mobile AV option; in vanillia, all Eldar AV were slow and impractical) nor fitting the lore of Eldar.


Also, Fire Dragons are not fitting for T3. You need heavy infantrys on T3 if you will ever get, not only armor type I say. I still count Seer Council as heavy infanty no matter how wrong it is. Fire Dragons are fitting perfectly for T2.

This post does not make sense.

If your position is that role of Fire Dragons is that of a mobile AV option, then how is giving them brightlances not fitting? It is the same as the Wraithlord having a brightlance, i.e. a mobile AV option. Now you just have a bunch of orange dudes with little brightlances instead of meltaguns

Your comment about heavy infantry in T3 does not make sense either, especially the comment about Seer Council. Do you consider Karskins, Flash Gitz or Commandos T3 heavy infantry? What about OM interceptors? They all at least have the heavy armor type (and not SHI) as opposed to the Seer Council's infantry armor.

Kasrkins, Flash Gitz, and Interceptors are all heavy infantry.

Kommandoes and Seer Council are infantry.

Now go back to fire dragons being imba =)

Forestradio wrote:Kasrkins, Flash Gitz, and Interceptors are all heavy infantry.

Kommandoes and Seer Council are infantry.

Now go back to fire dragons being imba =)

Ya, I know. He is saying that he considers Seer Council heavy infantry for T3 but not fire dragons, which are actually heavy infantry. The implication is that he means that T3 "heavy" infantry are actually Super Heavy Infantry.

Tinibombini wrote:Ya, I know. He is saying that he considers Seer Council heavy infantry for T3 but not fire dragons, which are actually heavy infantry. The implication is that he means that T3 "heavy" infantry are actually Super Heavy Infantry.

I think what he was getting at was big, hard hitting infantry units with relatively good tankiness (500 hp of infantry armor would be pretty high for T2, but is kind of moderate for T3), but it could have been worded a bit better.

As for the Bright Lances idea, that would pretty much go against lore completely. Not only do Fire Dragons exclusively use Fusion Guns and a Fire Pike/Dragon's Breath Flamer for the Exarch, but Bright Lances are a heavy setup weapon. They aren't deployed in handheld form as far as I know (Corsairs might have a troop version, but I can't remember off the top of my head). While I normally advocate for balance over lore, this would kind of be the equivalent of putting multi-lasers on a Land Raider. It goes too far to be tolerable.