Dawn of War Codex

The last time this topic came up Caeltos said they were implemented because Eldar "really struggled" vs SHI...so why are they T2???

I want them in the game but in the right tier. They hard counter so much (even soft countering vehicles with all that plasma). Sentinel plays are screwed by them, and popping out of farseer webways they can rape just about anything HI.

All 3 eldar heroes can deal with ogryns (do i have to explain how...?). That leaves the tyrant guard in T2. If this is an issue i am not aware of eldar having problems vs tyrant guard.

Please move them to T3

Panda wrote:The last time this topic came up Caeltos said they were implemented because Eldar "really struggled" vs SHI...so why are they T2???

I want them in the game but in the right tier. They hard counter so much (even soft countering vehicles with all that plasma). Sentinel plays are screwed by them, and popping out of farseer webways they can rape just about anything HI.

All 3 eldar heroes can deal with ogryns (do i have to explain how...?). That leaves the tyrant guard in T2. If this is an issue i am not aware of eldar having problems vs tyrant guard.

Please move them to T3

i disagree with moving them to t3, let's be honest, how many times do we even see dark reapers in a game? I usually go for warp spiders, or fire dragons if i want specific infantry. But making them tier 3 wouldn't work very well. Then Eldar T3 would be D Cannon, Fire Prism, Avatar, Seer Council and Dark Reapers? And nobody would build them in t3 because you can just build the fire prism and not only does it do very solid damage, but it also disrupts.

crazyman64335 wrote:i disagree with moving them to t3, let's be honest, how many times do we even see dark reapers in a game? I usually go for warp spiders, or fire dragons if i want specific infantry. But making them tier 3 wouldn't work very well. Then Eldar T3 would be D Cannon, Fire Prism, Avatar, Seer Council and Dark Reapers? And nobody would build them in t3 because you can just build the fire prism and not only does it do very solid damage, but it also disrupts.

General thought seems to be that DR shouldn't even exist. Is one of the few things i've seen where Tex and Rikku agree

and I would third such a notion...

Bahamut one might say that what you're saying is rather insulting. I believe Caeltos dedicate quite a lot of his time for this mod, thinking more than twice before adding a new unit to game.

DR should get tweaked, but removed? They were added because Eldar lack plasma damage. They fulfil their role well, and don't even overlap with anything. It would be absurd to remove them.

Tex wrote:...Reapers will simply rip commanders, heavy armor, and super heavy armor units to shreds without missing...
Dark reapers are a t3 unit in t2 that can be purchased and upgraded cheaper than flash gitz or karskins.

Not commanders, as plasma damage is not extremely useful (0.75) vs them. Quite agreed with the rest of your post though.

Crazyman64335, I can think of plenty of situation (for example vs KN and RA) where I'd rather like DR than a Fireprism.

Bahamut wrote:General thought seems to be that DR shouldn't even exist.

I'd like to point out that that isn't the case, nor do the thoughts of these two people (however good and insightful they can be) dictate the views of the community.

I think a lot more thought goes into which units get the nod and which don't. Seriously I've seen Possessed marines, Apo with jump pack, plague champion in termie armour, imperial psyker and even two very detailed slaanesh leaders. That fact that none of them, especially the two most detailed ones (slaanesh dudes) got the nod makes me think that things aren't getting in unless you-know-who thinks they're necessary or will add more than they take away.

And eldar did and still do struggle against termies specifically in retail...a big issue is the Reapers have often levelled once or twice by the time termies could hit the field, which is when their anti HI/SHI dps gets insane.

So what are proposed changes to them? I see a lot of just anti-DR. Make it constructive. What would you change to make them work

Flash wrote:So what are proposed changes to them? I see a lot of just anti-DR. Make it constructive. What would you change to make them work

As stated in the original post:

Take away their HI armor and exarch health buff in T2.

OR

Put them in T3.

I don't think they should be removed, but right now they are OP vs. HI and SHI.

Why wouldn't I buy reapers in t3? They are only 35 power. A fire prism is 135 power. I think its absurd that I wouldn't buy reapers in T3.

Ok so here, lets give the reaper rockets a little more damage (to keep them t3 relevant?? even though they already are) and move them to T3. Can we please settle on this? Or am I gonna have to go full time eldar and really hammer home the point here...

Tex wrote:Why wouldn't I buy reapers in t3? They are only 35 power. A fire prism is 135 power. I think its absurd that I wouldn't buy reapers in T3.

Ok so here, lets give the reaper rockets a little more damage (to keep them t3 relevant?? even though they already are) and move them to T3. Can we please settle on this? Or am I gonna have to go full time eldar and really hammer home the point here...

Please do, I'm curious

FWIW I think reapers are a T3 unit in T2. Were they originally designed for a different tier, like the Doom?

IMHO, Dark Reapers were designed as a counter to HI and SHI squads, but specially to Tyrant Guard, which Eldar had no specific counter in retail and Terminators/Nobz squads.

Ogryns aren't a problem to eldar, because any suppression/snare squad + Wraithguard/buffed Banshees are enough to force retreat them.

Dark Reapers were always designed to be in tier 2, and they're most likely going to remain there.

Caeltos wrote:Dark Reapers were always designed to be in tier 2, and they're most likely going to remain there.

Then please could you share your thoughts on them in the current state, and why they're probably going to stay in T2?

do other people have issues with tyrant guard as eldar? i've always found them easily countered by banshees and brightlances if i needed them.

i never thought tyrant guards as something eldar can't deal with, especially because haywire grenade works on them. on the top of that, warp spiders are good against nids.

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:do other people have issues with tyrant guard as eldar? i've always found them easily countered by banshees and brightlances if i needed them.

Banshees are eaten alive by TG. Brightlance would be a poor investment against it, giving up the suppression for something that will hardly be useful before a carnifex shows up.

But the same point of ogryns vs reapers applies to TG vs reapers, they completely useless vs the rest of the nids, sure you can try to snipe some warriors with that, but if the nid is smart enough that won't happen, beside, shees chop up the tg very very quickly or a falcon is a good answer to it aswell.

I am afraid the dark reapers are a bit to expensive and fragile for what amounts to just an anti heavy infantry unit. generally you already have 5 units on the field by the time you get to t2 as eldar with atleast two guardians and 1 shuri plat if you atleast somewhat aspire to the traditional play style.

That puts the pop around the 50 mark. I don't think it is particularly prudent to put ur pop at 60+ for a unit that is only exceptionally good vs heavy infantry....

Not when units like fire dragons and wraith guard can deal with the ranged heavy infantry in addition to being good against generator farms and tanks and banshees can deal with the melee heavy infantry.

The only time i could fathom getting a dark reaper is if one of my guardians happened to die a horrible death and i had that pop gap too spare.

That total lack of utility for the stock price is what kills them for me. Sure you can pay through the nose for those shiny upgrades , but it is really expensive and their fragility is still something to seriously consider.

saltychipmunk wrote:I am afraid the dark reapers are a bit to expensive and fragile for what amounts to just an anti heavy infantry unit.

Their cost is so low. What are you talking about...
"Just an anti-HI squad" ? You do know they can delete (S)HI squads in second right?
And have HI armor for themselves.

saltychipmunk wrote:That puts the pop around the 50 mark. I don't think it is particularly prudent to put ur pop at 60+ for a unit that is only exceptionally good vs heavy infantry....

Tell that to HI armor armies -.-

saltychipmunk wrote:Not when units like fire dragons and wraith guard can deal with the ranged heavy infantry in addition to being good against generator farms and tanks and banshees can deal with the melee heavy infantry.

Exactly, Eldar had no trouble vs (S)HI before.

saltychipmunk wrote:That total lack of utility for the stock price is what kills them for me. Sure you can pay through the nose for those shiny upgrades , but it is really expensive and their fragility is still something to seriously consider.

Point, klick, die, profit and av dmg is not enough utility?
Dark reapers aren't expensive.

I will try to post dark reaper cost sometime later this weak, but I don't have the time right now.

As for them bleeding a lot, has anyone ever tried to bleed dark reapers who are

a) using guide
and/or
b) hiding under a holo-field

Try it.

I don't know what people are honestly talking about about Dark Reapers being not expensive. They're actually one of the more cost dependant units in the game. Espicially if you acquire all three wargear weapons.

Considering you don't have Pinning Fire by default even.

Rough estimate of a fully upgraded Dark Reaper

350/30 base-cost
450/55 for pinning fire + dmg upgrade
620/90 fully-upgraded

Infact, if I see another god damn post about Dark Reapers not being expensive, I'll just dispute that post and see it a clear evident of machunk of biasness. Or at least have the decency to do your bloody research before pouring uneccasary post that makes me giggle with missinformation.

I spoke with alot of really really good (argueably the best eldar players) around when I first introduced Dark Reapers, and it was indeed the solution to SHI for Eldar in alot matchups. Of course, there's more variety to the mixture when you're adding that specific counter-measure unit regardless, so I had to take that into consideration.

Eldar did have issues, if the eldar fell behind in the tech race - they would ultimately have no real "unit" to actually effectively deal with it. That wasn't just specifically Ogryns, it was actually Terminators as well. Good luck trying to stop them with Shurikens.

Besides that, alot of the top-IG players would even field-counter-measure properties, like the Lord General "immune to supression" to completely negate the counter-measures that are even listed. Commissar Lord has a different approach to this, as well as the Inquisitor, but they both again - had nullifying counters to the listed supportive ability or whatever was actually mentioned again.

Even as I played IG vs other very potent Eldar, it was pretty much a non-debatable discussion that how effectively broken Ogryns were, and given circumstances of a SM snowball effect (rarity, but occurances abound) actually had a diminishable effect on the overall eldar tier2/t3 transition plays and how they can coope with getting behind.

Besides that, there's such a rare occurance that I even see Dark Reapers getting fielded at all, so I don't know how this verdict of Dark Reapers being at an odd place came about all of a sudden. Infact, I don't think they were even used once in the monthly tournament that was just held.

And on another note, it's easy to disregard my intended counter-measure units for some specific matchups to these units, and that might be at fault actually. What's already been discussed how "uneffective" Dark Reapers are against standard-issued Infantry units. So in a SM matchup, it was intended that Snipers were an ideal counter-measure unit, hench the damage/hp comparison so that Snipers can actually one-shot (or they should at least) a Dark Reaper model per shot. Effectively bleeding 43/4 economical damage per hit.

And that's something that I feel is probably the most genuine lack of counter-mesaure unit that ever gets fielded at all in some matchups. So I feel if you're an SM struggling against DRs, incorporate scout with snipers and come back to the topic at hand if they're not doing well enough in that matchup. Cost effiency vs upgrade effiency and all that.

So no, Dark Reapers are not being moved to T3, and that's final. It was the transition from T2/T3 snowball factor occurance that ultimately can put an end to an eldar vs X matchup. Dark Reapers providing a small pressure-potential towards vehicles is actually "alright". They're not going to go toe-to-toe vs any vehicle in the game (except for Trukk, but it's a Trukk for crying out loud) and come out ontop. If they're wasting their time in a matchup pressuring a vehicle instead of a designated SHI/HI unit, then that's their fault. Vehicles are not their top priority, and if they are doing it, you should capitalize on that misstake.

Their initial cost seems too low. I would make them 400/40 with a 40/4 reinforcement cost. That's what I'd do.

What's odd is that there's abit of an uncertainty around reinf. cost per model. There's one side saying it's tied to overall cost of the squad itself / and model count count as well.

But I know they reduced Nobs reinf. per model back in retail without touching their overall cost, so I'm always abit confused on the matter. As far as I know now, is that 400/40 isn't doable. It was like that a while ago, but it wasn't just working on purely cost efficiently enough. Their pricing has been dwindling in those figures for a while.

Mhm. I believed reinforcement costs had to be a percentage of the whole squad cost, no matter how many models it contains.

Reinforcement cost is determined by
- model cost (entity stat) that also determines unit price
- a percentage (squad stat) of the base cost for reinforcing

Only a couple of units fiddle with the last one which is probably for the best. Generally it is 50%.

ok, but is that done by the engine or is that just the formula for the value you set?

Wat

Asmon wrote:Their initial cost seems too low. I would make them 400/40 with a 40/4 reinforcement cost. That's what I'd do.

their cost has to stay low , they are competing for the same squad spot as your av or arty unit in the early t2.

Caeltos wrote:And on another note, it's easy to disregard my intended counter-measure units for some specific matchups to these units, and that might be at fault actually. What's already been discussed how "uneffective" Dark Reapers are against standard-issued Infantry units. So in a SM matchup, it was intended that Snipers were an ideal counter-measure unit, hench the damage/hp comparison so that Snipers can actually one-shot (or they should at least) a Dark Reaper model per shot. Effectively bleeding 43/4 economical damage per hit.

Ignoring that snipers are a very bad choice in this mu. Rangers will outperform them by far for a lower cost. And Gaurdian shields are also a thing to think about.

I am inclined to agree , it seems unreasonable to make a unit with the intent for races like sm to use snipers which is an otherwise terrible idea vs infantry armies.


Why would I get 1 - 2 snipers , which generally is a strategy one must at least prepare for by keeping the scouts upgrade free at the very beginning of the game to make work, to take care of dark reapers; a unit whose roll is so weirdly out of place that almost no one ever uses them?

plus their dps is not at all terrible vs infantry , its not warpspider gibbyness , but for scouts and rangers you really do not need much dps to scare them off.

snipers is about the last thing i would employ vs dark reapers , with units like asm , or a melee commander being a far more straight forward and well rounded approach.