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Re: Scouts...
Posted: Thu 28 Jul, 2016 11:29 pm
by Toilailee
Scouts are one of the best units in the game imo. They scale extremely, can fulfill multiple roles and are useful throughout the entire game regardless of how long it is.
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Fri 29 Jul, 2016 1:02 am
by Cyris
Toilailee wrote:Scouts are one of the best units in the game imo.
They should get the IST treatment and have their cost increased to 225
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Fri 29 Jul, 2016 10:25 pm
by TE | NoSkill
Well, so why don t buff scouts ? I mean thy are doing even less damage than eldar or ork shooters (who have 8 dmg per hit)
Something like 10 melee dmg per hit would be very good=D
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Fri 29 Jul, 2016 10:53 pm
by Adeptus Noobus
Because you are trying to force something upon them that they were not designed to do. It is as Toilailee said (bar the "best unit in the game" statement). Good scout play is key to good SM play. They support in all stages of the game. Be it repair, scouting, deterring melee, throwing grenades on retreat or putting pressure on you in the form of the map-control. You will have to invest in them though to fulfill the role you have in mind for them. As is the same with every unit in the SM roster.
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Fri 29 Jul, 2016 11:27 pm
by TE | NoSkill
Well ,ok i just thought this would make the game better , but if u think it s not needed.....((((
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Fri 29 Jul, 2016 11:33 pm
by Ace of Swords
TE | NoSkill wrote:Well ,ok i just thought this would make the game better , but if u think it s not needed.....((((
Making this game unbalanced wouldn't make it better............
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sat 30 Jul, 2016 3:10 am
by PaperBaG
Dark Riku wrote:Why is it though that scouts lose in melee against other ranged units as well?
Certain models/squads melee DPSScout model: 4 (full squad: 12, with sarge: 18)
GM model: 2 (full squad: 12, with sarge: 20)
DA model: 6.67 (full squad: 33,35, with wl: 57,64)
Shoota model: 8 (full squad: 40, with nob: 63.08)
Now also look up the setupteams' melee dps. You'll find out that scouts even lose to those in melee :/
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:1 Scout with Shotgun = 1 Tac dps
Only at the short range of 8 or below.
U need to include the 40% dmg reduction on those squads bc scouts have melee difference and the others don't...
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:37 am
by Dark Riku
PaperBaG wrote:U need to include the 40% dmg reduction on those squads bc scouts have melee difference and the others don't...
Even with melee resistance all other squads do more damage if you want to put them 1v1 up against scouts
The units you force melee don't all have melee resistance either.
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sat 30 Jul, 2016 6:25 pm
by Oddnerd
I can see that there is a lore reason and potentially a balance reason for scouts to at least be able to beat a setup team in melee (not havocs/devs, but IG/Ork/Eldar).
Would SM players be willing to pay the extra price to have this improved melee damage though?
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sat 30 Jul, 2016 6:26 pm
by Ace of Swords
Oddnerd wrote:I can see that there is a lore reason and potentially a balance reason for scouts to at least be able to beat a setup team in melee (not havocs/devs, but IG/Ork/Eldar).
Would SM players be willing to pay the extra price to have this improved melee damage though?
Considering how bad is the starting req/gen situation of sm right now in correlation to the effectiveness of tacts,devs and asm, no.
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sun 31 Jul, 2016 2:02 am
by PaperBaG
Dark Riku wrote:PaperBaG wrote:U need to include the 40% dmg reduction on those squads bc scouts have melee difference and the others don't...
Even with melee resistance all other squads do more damage if you want to put them 1v1 up against scouts
The units you force melee don't all have melee resistance either.
I've seen it with my own eye scouts w sarge easily beating guardsmen or DA without exarch...
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sun 31 Jul, 2016 4:27 am
by Paranoid Kamikaze
PaperBaG wrote:Dark Riku wrote:PaperBaG wrote:U need to include the 40% dmg reduction on those squads bc scouts have melee difference and the others don't...
Even with melee resistance all other squads do more damage if you want to put them 1v1 up against scouts
The units you force melee don't all have melee resistance either.
I've seen it with my own eye scouts w sarge easily beating guardsmen or DA without exarch...
I've seen Scouts with Sarge beating T1 Guardsmen in melee before. The fight is kinda close, but Guardsmen are more likely to lose models compared to the Scouts and their dps lowers so Scouts can beat them. Haven't seen anyone do it lately, but I definitely remember it in retail. Don't know if maybe some Guardsmen values have changed or not. Oh, and Scouts are 60 melee skill while Guardsmen are 50. Never seen a Scout squad do a special before though.
Never seen a Scout squad meleeing a Dire Avenger squad before. Maybe the DA were low on health.
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sun 31 Jul, 2016 5:07 am
by Crewfinity
DA have 5 models 120 health per model, and deal 4 Melee dps each to the scouts since they have melee resistance.
Total is 600 health and deals 20 melee dps
Scouts have 3 models 140 health per model, a die last leader with 250 health, and deal 4 melee dps each.
Total is 670 health and deals 16 melee dps.
Guardsmen have 8 models with 100 health per model, and deal a whopping 1.2 melee dps each. Sergeant has 140 health, dies last, and deals 2.4 melee dps.
Total is 940 health and deals 12 melee dps.
If you get a little lucky with the enemy models mostly hitting the sergeant, or the scouts ganging up and killing enemy models early on, it's totally reasonable for the scouts to win that fight. Mostly comes down to attack distribution since nobody will be getting specials. Having a die last leader is a huge bonus in those situations, as well as higher health per models since they will be losing less dps as they continue to slap each other silly.
Scout melee dps is fine. They've also got nade spikes and shotguns to put the hurt on up close. If you want to melee stuff get flying t1 terminators
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sun 31 Jul, 2016 5:45 am
by Atlas
I'm pretty sure Scouts have melee resistance too, so that definitely helps.
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sun 31 Jul, 2016 5:51 am
by Crewfinity
Atlas wrote:I'm pretty sure Scouts have melee resistance too, so that definitely helps.
They do, and thats factored into the calculations above. Having 40% damage resistance to melee attacks is no joke.
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sun 31 Jul, 2016 6:00 am
by Paranoid Kamikaze
Crewfinity wrote:DA have 5 models 120 health per model, and deal 4 Melee dps each to the scouts since they have melee resistance.
Total is 600 health and deals 20 melee dps
Scouts have 3 models 140 health per model, a die last leader with 250 health, and deal 4 melee dps each.
Total is 670 health and deals 16 melee dps.
Guardsmen have 8 models with 100 health per model, and deal a whopping 1.2 melee dps each. Sergeant has 140 health, dies last, and deals 2.4 melee dps.
Total is 940 health and deals 12 melee dps.
If you get a little lucky with the enemy models mostly hitting the sergeant, or the scouts ganging up and killing enemy models early on, it's totally reasonable for the scouts to win that fight. Mostly comes down to attack distribution since nobody will be getting specials. Having a die last leader is a huge bonus in those situations, as well as higher health per models since they will be losing less dps as they continue to slap each other silly.
Scout melee dps is fine. They've also got nade spikes and shotguns to put the hurt on up close. If you want to melee stuff get flying t1 terminators
Thought Guardsmen had 2 dps and Sarge 4? That's what it says in the Codex.
Looked up some ranged stats just to show.
30.32 dps Scouts with Sarge 285/25
35.96 dps Guards with Sarge 295
43.75 dps Guardians 270
Anyways, this is all with Sarge and Scouts have always been good only for capping without upgrades.
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sun 31 Jul, 2016 6:16 am
by Psycho
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Thought Guardsmen had 2 dps and Sarge 4? That's what it says in the Codex.
He's also adding the 40% melee damage reduction
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Sun 31 Jul, 2016 9:18 am
by Dark Riku
PaperBaG wrote: I've seen it with my own eye scouts w sarge easily beating guardsmen or DA without exarch...
That's impossible in a straight up 1v1 fight.
Scouts will also take a lot more ranged fire from every other squad when closing in on each other.
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Wed 03 Aug, 2016 9:15 pm
by Sneery_Thug
Scouts are at a good spot right now. You have only to pay attention to 2 things:
1) don't let enemy melee units into their melee charge range - cause then they are faster then scouts, so enemy will get them.
2) Shotgun blast fails, when the enemy unit begins a new animation. And it fails also, when you blast, when shees use their war shout.
Also sometimes (is it a bug at all?) scouts need veeery long time to enter the infiltration (so that the blink red for ages)
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Wed 03 Aug, 2016 10:13 pm
by Toilailee
Sneery_Thug wrote:Also sometimes (is it a bug at all?) scouts need veeery long time to enter the infiltration (so that the blink red for ages)
SEE BUT DO NOT BE SEEN!!!!!!!!! (was that loud enough for you sir?)
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Wed 03 Aug, 2016 10:29 pm
by Dark Riku
Toilailee wrote:SEE BUT DO NOT BE SEEN!!!!!!!!! (was that loud enough for you sir?)
Now that's actually something worth changing. That shit is retarded -.-
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Thu 04 Aug, 2016 12:29 am
by [EL] A Paige (of AT)
Dark Riku wrote:Toilailee wrote:SEE BUT DO NOT BE SEEN!!!!!!!!! (was that loud enough for you sir?)
Now that's actually something worth changing. That shit is retarded -.-
Yes please, I'd like the enemy to not have any clues that I am about to wipe a squad.
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Thu 04 Aug, 2016 3:37 am
by Psycho
Sneery_Thug wrote:Also sometimes (is it a bug at all?) scouts need veeery long time to enter the infiltration (so that the blink red for ages)
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Thu 04 Aug, 2016 6:11 am
by egewithin
Ahahahahahahah Sorcerer!
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Thu 04 Aug, 2016 8:10 am
by Sneery_Thug
Sorcerer wrote:Sneery_Thug wrote:Also sometimes (is it a bug at all?) scouts need veeery long time to enter the infiltration (so that the blink red for ages)
xD Hell, I love this one !
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Thu 04 Aug, 2016 8:14 am
by Sneery_Thug
Toilailee wrote:Sneery_Thug wrote:Also sometimes (is it a bug at all?) scouts need veeery long time to enter the infiltration (so that the blink red for ages)
SEE BUT DO NOT BE SEEN!!!!!!!!! (was that loud enough for you sir?)
This causes pain in the ass every bloody time
Re: Scouts...
Posted: Mon 08 Aug, 2016 5:24 pm
by Adeptus Noobus
The fact that they take longer to infiltrate is caused by them having been in a firefight recently which causes them to get "detected" (even though they were not infiltrated). You can lab it. Try doing nothing with scouts and infiltrate them - it will work as you expect it to. Now shoot at something or throw a grenade and then infiltrate and you will see that it now takes longer. I think that is actually balanced this way.
I agree with the voiceline though. It is just such a nuissance to infiltrate and let everybody on the bloody map know that you are now roaming around with scouts. I mean come on.....