Dawn of War Codex

_4ut_ wrote:But what I do not understand is why the sergeant and acolyte at GK OM ST received malee skill equivalent heroes 70!? They ninja or something? For example DA Exarch have 50!
Whats the reason of THIS?

Without a melee special attack on the leader models of the IST, melee skill becomes a purely defensive statistic. With the squad lacking melee resistance and their relative squishiness even with the leader, the increase in melee skill on the leader models is intended to prevent the potential of a leader model being knockback and ganked by melee squads till the squad dies.

I don't know why there's such outrage on this point tbh.

Atlas wrote:

_4ut_ wrote:But what I do not understand is why the sergeant and acolyte at GK OM ST received malee skill equivalent heroes 70!? They ninja or something? For example DA Exarch have 50!
Whats the reason of THIS?

Without a melee special attack on the leader models of the IST, melee skill becomes a purely defensive statistic. With the squad lacking melee resistance and their relative squishiness even with the leader, the increase in melee skill on the leader models is intended to prevent the potential of a leader model being knockback and ganked by melee squads till the squad dies.

At the risk of infuriating Atlas and derailing the thread, might I point out that the DA exarch has rather shitty MS and could use a nice buff XD

Aetherion wrote:

Atlas wrote:

_4ut_ wrote:But what I do not understand is why the sergeant and acolyte at GK OM ST received malee skill equivalent heroes 70!? They ninja or something? For example DA Exarch have 50!
Whats the reason of THIS?

Without a melee special attack on the leader models of the IST, melee skill becomes a purely defensive statistic. With the squad lacking melee resistance and their relative squishiness even with the leader, the increase in melee skill on the leader models is intended to prevent the potential of a leader model being knockback and ganked by melee squads till the squad dies.

At the risk of infuriating Atlas and derailing the thread, might I point out that the DA exarch has rather shitty MS and could use a nice buff XD

Dire avengers already have fleet of foot as an easy escape mechanism so I don't think they need anything like that.

Crewfinity wrote:

Aetherion wrote:
At the risk of infuriating Atlas and derailing the thread, might I point out that the DA exarch has rather shitty MS and could use a nice buff XD

Dire avengers already have fleet of foot as an easy escape mechanism so I don't think they need anything like that.

Not to mention grenades.

Torpid wrote:Not to mention grenades.

Are nades worth mentioning in this context when comparing DAs with exarch to IST with sarge? The IST have nades too...the DAs with just a exarch do not.

Tinibombini wrote:

Torpid wrote:Not to mention grenades.

Are nades worth mentioning in this context when comparing DAs with exarch to IST with sarge? The IST have nades too...the DAs with just a exarch do not.

The DA exarch isn't in any real manner meant to be an anti-melee counter.

The IST sarge in contrast has that worked into its balance. It is meant to be a soft melee counter.

If you want better anti-melee DA then get battle equipment instead.

Also of note is that the DA exarch is not die-last, so if he gets ganked it doesn't wipe the squad.

Also note that the DA exarch has this ridiculous unneeded kb jump every time he gets into melee.

Torpid wrote:The IST sarge in contrast has that worked into its balance. It is meant to be a soft melee counter.

But way they need to be soft counter? There is the balance here?

_4ut_ wrote:

Torpid wrote:The IST sarge in contrast has that worked into its balance. It is meant to be a soft melee counter.

But way they need to be soft counter? There is the balance here?

That was just how GK balance turned out all things considered. Mostly because they always lacked the traditional heavy bolter SUT that every other race has for anti-melee. So they've always had a lot of soft anti melee counters scattered amongst all their units.

This may not be so necessary next patch when certain things are adjusted such as operative and purgation efficiency. And if that is suspected to be the case the IST nade will be nerfed. It is due to be atm.

Torpid wrote:That was just how GK balance turned out all things considered. Mostly because they always lacked the traditional heavy bolter SUT that every other race has for anti-melee. So they've always had a lot of soft anti melee counters scattered amongst all their units.

This may not be so necessary next patch when certain things are adjusted such as operative and purgation efficiency. And if that is suspected to be the case the IST nade will be nerfed. It is due to be atm.

Exactly, couldn't have put it better myself. With the general roster of OM having an improved ability to deal with melee threats, we can tone down on some of the soft anti-melee and give it a more focused role.

In the example of IST nades, they can move less towards the damage(which they needed to deal with melee) and more towards being used proactively to disrupt. I'm not saying you CAN'T use the nade to counter melee, but just that it's going to take that and a lot more to do it.

The sarg model itself is likewise moving from being a crutch do-everything purchase (not talking about the bugs ) to being more about improving what the unit already does for cheap.

honestly i think the only thing purgation need next patch would be a suppression radius of 4 or so. So they can then suppress melee blobs which punishes the A-move and people who don't split their units.

As for Operatives they could use a Knockback ability instead of their stun boom. Or have a stun bomb that is instant but has a lower stun duration. I would prefer the KB from the shotguns though.

For ISt the spawn 2 at a time is great. So any passive buff the serg gives i think is a no no since he already help vs bleed. And His nade is decent as well. If my first point is worked on then he needs to have his nade have a timer and increased damage. And possibly increased cost. My 2 cent there for the roster. But atm i feel they are in decent shape out side of the IST thingy.

Just wanted to say, in my experience, GK Strike Squads are actually pretty weak. Sure they are good 1v1 vs a slugga, Guardian, heretic, etc. But as soon as they face a dedicated ranged/melee force (i.e. 3 GU), they are outclassed fast. Despite talk of their high dps, it's hard to translate that into power when actually playing.

IST may very well be OP now... I make it a point to not use them and try to stick with SS, Purgation, and sometimes operatives.I can't say for sure.

Even with these changes, OM are still pretty weak imo. They have little anti-vech options (although they have a snare now with this patch?), making vech rushes quite powerful, which has always been a glaring weakness.

I thought the infantry units were largely fine as I played the race... it was just their horrible anti-vech scaling from T1 and lack of hard-anti-vech counters like a lascannon. It's not fun trying to kill vechs with a shitty dps rhino that requires god micro to hit any vech.

The hold fire option should be making it very non-godly micro
If the rhino has it... Last time I was playing and was annoyed that some AV units don't have it.

Again sentiment to the modders. Please make every unit have it.

Dark Riku wrote:Again sentiment to the modders. Please make every unit have it.

I went ahead and interpreted "every unit" as "any unit that it would be potentially useful on" and I pretty much did. I've rolled back the AC Dread Hold Fire on account of not really being useful and on the Kommando Squad hero because it was technically speaking very complicated to set up the removal of the Hold Fire Key when he dies. I'll go ahead and put a list on Hold Fire after this post but keep in mind, this is not a final list.

Ok, @Vindi's post on OM T1 AV potential.

So, the current list of what you can use as AV from OM T1 is:
1)Strike Psycannon.
2)Purgations Psilencers. (which use Rending to go to AV mode)
3)Operative melta bombs.

I think 3 is fine as is, really. If there are still problems in transitional AV, and I'm not too proud to admit that there still might be, I think 1 and 2 are the places to check out.

1 is something that would ultimately require re-evaluating the ranged proficiency of Strikes :/. So far, I'm fairly happy with the melee version of Strikes, but making a unit that is fairly cheap and good at both melee and ranged combat seems just a litttttle op. It's a tough scenario and one that would have to be really solved in 2.7.

2 is something we're taking steps to address now. I'll keep an eye on how much damage the AV mode of Purgations ultimately do, and I think that it might be too low at the moment, but it's a far simpler situation.

Anyway, ultimate point is that the opinion is heard. I'd like to see any OM players in 2.6.1 try to use the Vindicare a bit more, as I feel that he is being underutilized a bit as a very cheap long range spike av platform, but we'll see.