Dawn of War Codex

Shroom wrote:I have yes, played all of the DOW games. While I find DOW 3's multiplayer to be passable even fun at times the campaign is just complete, pure heresy for the reasons aforementioned above.

In what ways do you think DoW III's campaign doesn't play like vDoW / WA? Seems pretty identical to me, in terms of structure, build-up and pacing. Gameplay differences between the two games aside, of course.

Gorbles wrote:In what ways do you think DoW III's campaign doesn't play like vDoW / WA? Seems pretty identical to me, in terms of structure, build-up and pacing. Gameplay differences between the two games aside, of course.

Yes they are indeed very similar. A 2017 game has just about as many single player gameplay features as a 2004 game, which is the problem. I was expecting a lot more from this game single player-wise while I was looking back at the campaigns of Dark Crusade, Soulstorm, DOW2, and Chaos Rising. Even Retribution's campaign (which I think is heinously bare bones) is better in my eyes.

SPOLERS don't read if you want to do the campaign with out knowing what happened

I have to say I watch the whole campaign from start to end and well I have to say I am very sad. It feels like dow1 campaign but a diffent way of putting things I not shocked that theirs a daemon cos of the whole skulls thing in this game and well all the dead pile up as sacrifices the whole spear which they all fight for thing, it just a trick to fight over it to die and feed him on the planet of Acheron, which is his prison like to no how he ended up their relic? this mighty daemon with no name which can make doppelgangers out of the dead and even have blood letters help it cos blood letters just pop up out of no where , no name just called daemon which got imprisoned in a planet maybe just a little story about it maybe relic?

I mean comon, a fucking daemon powerfully at least got imprisoned in a planet not even by elder cos they had no ide about, not even a voice for it faceplam. This just feels rushed, no really weight to it and a waste of time.

THO AGIAN SPOLERS NECRONS are the next race for dow3 watch the end of the last cut scene

@boss

Very hard to not read posts sitting there in the thread as the thread refreshes. Doesn't this forum have spoiler tags?

@Shroom

Ah right, I see what you mean. I mean, I disagree (even though I still prefer DoW II's SP format), but I get where you're coming from.

The issue here is that the quality of a game, or indeed a Single Player mode, isn't defined by the number of features or when they were invented. The new Tomb Raider series has sold very well considering the core gameplay loop (solve puzzles -> shoot things) hasn't changed since TR1 back in the 90s.

A lot of people liked Dark Crusade / Soulstorm - I didn't, personally. A good attempt, but it got stale very, very fast (unless people liked the infinite defense missions you had to play because autoplay cost you entire provinces). The HQ missions were the best part of it, and they necessitated some form of wargear upgrades and Honour Guard to even think about doing (on the higher difficulties at least).

Still, even accounting for all that, I don't get why DoW III is "heresy" when it's a good linear RTS campaign. Nothing heretical about that

boss wrote: last cut scene

is there even a cutscene? or is it one of those shitty animated comic strips?

Shroom
Comic strip at the end of the credits of the campaign, I mean cut scene well done relic

Gorble

I have no ide and I don't really want to know thb your going to find out sooner or later anyway.

Gorbles wrote:@Shroom

Ah right, I see what you mean. I mean, I disagree (even though I still prefer DoW II's SP format), but I get where you're coming from.

The issue here is that the quality of a game, or indeed a Single Player mode, isn't defined by the number of features or when they were invented. The new Tomb Raider series has sold very well considering the core gameplay loop (solve puzzles -> shoot things) hasn't changed since TR1 back in the 90s.

A lot of people liked Dark Crusade / Soulstorm - I didn't, personally. A good attempt, but it got stale very, very fast (unless people liked the infinite defense missions you had to play because autoplay cost you entire provinces). The HQ missions were the best part of it, and they necessitated some form of wargear upgrades and Honour Guard to even think about doing (on the higher difficulties at least).

Still, even accounting for all that, I don't get why DoW III is "heresy" when it's a good linear RTS campaign. Nothing heretical about that

When the only thing you're doing in the campaign is roflmaoing the ai and listening to poor voice acting the lack of features and the linearity is pretty damning imo. Yea sure in DOW2 and DOW1 you were roflmaoing the ai but there was a point to it: you were gathering resources, leveling your units, finding unique equipment etc. In DOW3 you are roflmaoing the ai in order to click "next mission" and listen to some bad voice acting once the mission is done. You're not planning your next move, you're not checking what other missions you have that might expire if you don't do them etc etc. Leveling does exist in DOW3 but it is completely identical to the multiplayer progression, begging the question why you're even bothering playing the campaign, as the only thing that's unique to it are the not very good voice acting and animated comic strips. If you're that interested you can read a synopsis of the plot and watch the "cutscenes" on youtube rather than waste your time shitting all over a stupid ai, time which would be better spent playing the multiplayer as it is basically the same experience only you're fighting versus a human opponent.

Additionally Tomb Raider is a third person action platformer I don't think its fitting comparing it to an RTS.

The hilarious side of things is the contrast between those stupid professional reviews that all say hell yeah, best game of the centhury, 9/10, this is what wh40k fans have been waiting for (rofl this one just killed me)... whereas most common people reviews speak of the game in terms of I do not recommend it.

Sales at $4.99 coming next month.

Carnevour wrote:I understand that you guys need your circlejerk hugbox forum here but sometimes you need someone to ruin the party :^)

Hey carnevour, how are you doing on the ladder? :^)

A whopping 5.1 user average on metacritic and 54% positive user reviews on Steam are well deserved for this game. Its a steaming pile of shit. PASS.

I've always found it funny that critical reviews are automatically useless and user reviews are automatically the most reliable thing ever.

I mean, most professional reviews are scored, around 1 to 10. And I have issues with this system; it really isn't perfect and not every game can be reduced to such numbers. But Steam reviews are even worse; it's a thumbs-up or thumbs-down. Absolutely no room for nuance at all.

But that's a bit more of a complex argument to get into. I'll stick to finding confirmation bias funny

So now you're saying it's confirmation bias while trying to be smug about it? Lad, are you trying to be a polite version of Carnevour?

Steam reviews for this game are complete garbage. It's getting review bombed by people with 0-2 hrs of playtime writing one sentence reviews like "by the EMPORER htis is HERESY" "its STARCRAFT 2" "its a MOBA!!!" "its a reskinned MOBA of STARCRAFDT 2!!!"

I flipped through about five pages of that bullshit before I just decided to try it for myself.

TLDR for me is i'm waiting for a sale. The open beta showed me the game was not fun enough to warrant paying full price for a variety of reasons. Since it is the new thing though, eventually we'll need to migrate to it to keep playing games.

I could list problems with the game, but i'd just be preaching to the choir. Plus i'm lazy, and like odd said, voting with your wallet is the only thing people listen to

Psycho wrote:So now you're saying it's confirmation bias while trying to be smug about it? Lad, are you trying to be a polite version of Carnevour?

What was I saying before, to be placing the blame solely on confirmation bias now (which I wasn't, and aren't)? I mean you've already tried to trip me up on inferences despite me meaning what was said accurate (which you didn't respond to, either).

I mean, is name-calling all you've got?

People buying a game when they have already made up their mind just to leave a bad review and then refund it immediately is going to be a thing devs will just have to get used to.
Consumers will also have to get used to ratings systems being fucked up and unusable for their unintended purposes as industry tries to counter the salt brigades by censoring reviews as standard operating procedure or worse, take up review manipulation to profit themselves

A lot of these people probably played many hours of the Beta, which would not transfer over to the full game (I assume).

Back when the game was just being sneak peeked, we were told it was too early to pass judgement, even though many people can tell a game they like from one they don't very quickly. Now the game is out and there are still low-effort attempts to say someone isn't in a position to criticize the game. Can the thought police give a precise outline of when someone's negative opinion of the game becomes valid? Do we have to buy the full game and all the shitty DLCs and play 100s of hours?

Oddnerd wrote:Do we have to buy the full game and all the shitty DLCs and play 100s of hours?

But then if it was so shitty why did you buy/play it so much :^)))))))))))))

Oddnerd wrote:A lot of these people probably played many hours of the Beta, which would not transfer over to the full game (I assume).

Back when the game was just being sneak peeked, we were told it was too early to pass judgement, even though many people can tell a game they like from one they don't very quickly. Now the game is out and there are still low-effort attempts to say someone isn't in a position to criticize the game. Can the thought police give a precise outline of when someone's negative opinion of the game becomes valid? Do we have to buy the full game and all the shitty DLCs and play 100s of hours?

It's okay to not like the game.

It less okay to spread misinformation and pretend to hold some objective truth based on a few hours of a limited MP release of an unreleased product.

That said, one small assumption there. I don't think anyone can comment on who played what, really. Especially with the amount of private Steam profiles out there (and active on the Steam forums). That said, it's very easy to spot the people that aren't familiar with the game. It's also easy to spot the people who simply don't like the product, but whom have obviously played it.

Dow3 is the #1 game on my wishlist yet steam no longer recommends it to me either as a new release or a top seller or even as a game I could enjoy considering I have 1000+ hours in Dow2. Well done Relic. You dug yourselves into this one.

Beeing a big fan of DoW 1 before dark crusade, CoH and with 1700 hours (mostly multiplayer) playtime in DoW II, I left DoW II in the dirt 5 years ago. DoW II had/has serious issues. However, I'm sure you don't even notice them anymore and don't care.
Maybe with some distance from DoW II you guys could see that every argument you field against DoW III can be taken and used against DoW II in it's vanilla state. Try me
Maybe in return, someone could try to make me understand where all the blind hate for DoW III comes from.

All I can see in DoW III, is relic tying to fix everything that was wrong with DoW II. After 31 hours of playtime in DoW III I can't say for sure, but I think they succeeded.

Dow2 had pathing problems yes and cover problems but they fix this in coh2 their not much cover problems at all these days in coh2 hell they gave tanks a Reverse button they improved a lot of issues from dow2 but in dow3 they got rid of all of this and why cos their trying to turn dow which is an rts genre into a moba and put dow3 on it to sell more which just wont work they didn't fix anything they just remove it

boss wrote:coh2 their not much cover problems

CoH 2 was the third game with the same cover system and there still are problems even if "not much" (many). Clearly they were never able to fix it. So why not just remove it with a cleaner version that always works as intended? Hell the new cover even gives a strategic point to fight for! Remember fighting for cover advantage in DoW II? I don't. If the enemy had cover you just send the hero in to destroy it. Late game, crater cover was just everywhere. Boring.

If you call DoW III a moba, DoW II is a moba. DoW II has it all. One hero to controll and "skillshots" like grenades everywere. Even every nuke is a skillshot. Dodge it and you win, take it in the face and you loose. Classic moba.
There are no more "lanes" in DoW III maps then there are in DoW II. Everything else is pure bias.
Base turets in DoW II and DoW III are the same. Get T2 to destroy them. No need to wait for VPs to run out when you can actually finish the game in t2 if your oponent is inferior. All viable recource points on every map are outside of the range of turets so they don't keep you from winning by having more money. In that regard, DoW III is much more RTS then DoW II. You can actually win by haveing more recources and less micro!
If anything, DoW II is the moba.
Apart from that, i like mobas

Vanilla DoW2 had horrible balance much like DoW3. It is kinda to be expected early on with games.

When it comes to MOBA elements, DoW2 has some of them but less than DoW3.

Here are some comparisons:

DoW2 has less impactful hero/elite units than DoW3. DoW2 is very hero driven but they don't instagib armies unlike DoW3 elites.

In DoW2 your heroes can lose to a single T1 squad unless upgraded.

DoW3 is visually a lot more like MOBAs than DoW2. Cartoony vs more gritty style. Animations like somersaulting terminator and huge visual effects for abilities like the Dreadnought slam are more in line with MOBAs.

Also game mechanics like the invisibility grass and power core destruction are from MOBA games.

That turret comparison was a bit weird. I mean you will pretty much never kill a base in a VP game unless you are miles ahead in skill or completely catch your opponent off guard.

I could write more but I am on phone and it is late so I'll edit extra stuff in later.

I've logged a fair number of hours in DOW 3 at this point.

SP is pretty bad. I feel no desire to complete it. Bouncing between races prevents you from being drawn into the story.
The ambiance (art style, gritty/visceral combat, and voice acting) are gone, which makes it feel less like Dawn of War game and more like a ftp game skinned like WH40k- the feeling present from Dow 1/2 is gone.
MP can be quite fun with friends and there feels to be a very high skill ceiling.
The Shield/turret/core design forces you into a linear game path and limits creativity and strategy.
Maps are too constricted, especially considering the number of units you eventually field.

Im disappointed but enjoying iT. don't think it will have staying power without changes to the linear gameplay and more maps.

This game will have horrible dlc spam and go f2p.

People see the common DNA between RTSs and MOBAs and get confused. They both have heroes and units and buildings and stuff, and MOBAs have powerful heroes, weak units, and few buildings, so an RTS that has powerful heroes, weak units, and few buildings must be a lot like a MOBA, right?

fucking

NO

This makes about as much sense as cutting the roof off of your car and saying it's now more like a motorcycle than a car. Just because they're both open to the air and have combustion engines does not make them the same. Similarly, having an RTS with powerful heroes and weak units makes it, get this, an RTS with powerful heroes and weak units. Until you start changing the fundamentals, like removing the map-based economy and replace it with a creep-based economy, and completely removing control of anything besides your hero, it's still going to be an RTS. Even the stuff like the shield gen/turret/nexus doesn't change the game fundamentally except to rule out early base raids, which was already in DoW2. Probably the most MOBA thing in DoW3 is the fact that your elites just get a timeout when killed instead of being repurchased, which is something that I just found out and kind of sucks (I thought you had to repay the elite points).

I mean, how in denial are you guys about the fact that you are actually playing a game that's closer to a moba than an RTS?

Literally every article about dow3 mentions MOBAs more than RTS, btw total biscuit ripped dow3 apart.

https://youtu.be/PfEp-ZuwiGE?t=2730

Wait, so journalistic articles are trustworthy, now?

Sorry, I keep getting told conflicting things on that (and I recognise it's a personal thing, what outlets to trust, and so on). Either all the professional reviews are paid-for and overhyped, or the professional reviews mention the phrase "MOBA" and therefore that makes the game one.

Which is it?

Gorbles wrote:Wait, so journalistic articles are trustworthy, now?

Sorry, I keep getting told conflicting things on that (and I recognise it's a personal thing, what outlets to trust, and so on). Either all the professional reviews are paid-for and overhyped, or the professional reviews mention the phrase "MOBA" and therefore that makes the game one.

Which is it?

It's both? I mean I know it's hard for you to understand but if you give a RTS high scores while praising the moba elements which is what every "professional" review site did, they are probably being paid to give it nothing less than an 8.