Dawn of War Codex

Oops. Sorry Nikhel. Misread that post of yours (mixed lulferno and vengeance with each other).

And Magus: If people don't remember to use abilities of the unit, well that is their mistake.

Magus Magi wrote:More often than not, they use hellfire or vengeance rounds continuously throughout large stretches of the game no matter what target is being engaged.

That is just poor micro (or poor understanding of mechanics if they do it on purpose). The game is supposed to reward careful management of units and punish neglecting it. Besides, it's already a low APM game... if we made it even more passive there wouldn't be much left for players to do.

Lulgrim wrote:

Magus Magi wrote:More often than not, they use hellfire or vengeance rounds continuously throughout large stretches of the game no matter what target is being engaged.

That is just poor micro (or poor understanding of mechanics if they do it on purpose). The game is supposed to reward careful management of units and punish neglecting it. Besides, it's already a low APM game... if we made it even more passive there wouldn't be much left for players to do.

You really don't have the time to wait for them to switch ammo, you have to decide what to use before the engagment, you might want to swap the ammo later if you forced off the infantry and you want to force off/kill the vehicle or viceversa, otherwise you are just locked in a continous switching making it the sternaguard completely useless as they do not fire and thus do 0dps/damage while changing ammo.

And wasting that 1.5 seconds while switching (if not more for more switching) can be fatal in an engagment.

Ace of Swords wrote:you might want to swap the ammo later if you forced off the infantry and you want to force off/kill the vehicle or viceversa

That's exactly what I mean. If you go in using Vengeance and don't bother to switch (just that once) after forcing off the only HI/vehicle unit, or generally go the entire match using only 1 ammo type, it's bad unit management.

The ammo is not really designed to be swapped 5 times per engagement. Although, if you're pro, just swap during reload...

Magus Magi wrote: it seems to me that even the best players have difficulty managing their tactical marine and sternguard weapon choices

What? Name one.

Magus Magi wrote:I see a tier 3 damage upgrade as one way of alleviating some of the pressure on players using those squads in hectic end-game battles.

I see it as a fluff wish.

Casts are chosen for epicness, they're rarely a good reflection of balance

I'm not going to dig through Indrid's casts in order to produce player names to single out. I feel as though that would be in poor taste. Suffice it to say that I remember noticing sternguard being used in many games where their ammo types were not being regularly switched to match their opponents.

Since the idea of a tier 3 damage boost to alleviate poor micro seems unpopular, let me make one final suggestion before letting this topic rest. Providing a damage boost in the late game might also have the effect of encouraging better micromanagement, in addition to (what I previously suggested) providing some degree of accident forgiveness where that micromanagement is lacking. I believe that giving a player the option to pour more resources into a squad late in the game, in order to improve that squad's effectiveness, would also tacitly encourage the player to pay more attention to managing that squad. In the case of sternguard, I think it would result in more games where players are especially diligent about using the sternguard ammo types to their maximum effect as intended.

Lulgrim mentioned the idea of a player swapping their ammos while the squad is reloading. I suspect play of that calibur would be encouraged by the type of upgrade I'm suggesting, because the sternguard themselves would represent a larger investment for the player using them and have a larger effect on the battlefield. It would increase the reward for expertly microed sternguard, and make that micro investment more attractive to capable players.

Alright, I've said what I wanted to say, and you have all been really great to take the time to address my concerns and weigh in on my little idea. The sternguard/tactical marine thing is really the only topic I wanted to discuss concerning ELITE. The mod is terrific, and the games that Indrid casts are riveting to watch. I'm going to go back to being an invisible admirer of this mod and its players. Good luck in all of your future games!

I just don't see why tacticals/sterns should have that sort of a buff. They are already the most versatile (a weapon upgrade/ammo type for pretty much every situation) ranged squad in the game so they shouldn't be able to outclass dedicated counters. That is only my opinion though. Someone with better insight might beg to differ.

Nah i agree with you nurland, tacts/sternguards are good as they are now, they are generalists and they are decent at everything as they should, people also tend to forget that they also cap 50% faster which is of great help to mantain map control or just to harass.

Personally I feel the Apo is a very weak hero.

His best synergy is with one unit - ASM. To support them from the off he has a pretty budget heal, and you really only get the best synergy from him by getting Purification Rites and/or Armour of Purity. And seriously two of the weapon upgrades for a low-hp support hero are melee?? He is easily focussed down/swamped and too often has to waste his precious heal on himself.

The Apo really suffers when you compare the mileage you can get out of him with the mileage you can get out of the FC. IMO the FC has better synergy with ASM, and for that matter most of his units, via battle cry (buffing ASM and putting everything around him on its ass, so the ASMs hit them more aswell), can upgrade to tank really well, disrupt like a baws with a big shiny hammer and even get reasonably hard av. And counter setup teams. And buff all allied units around him. And make a large force take a load less ranged damage and no suppression. In comparison the Apo relies exclusively on a few well-timed heals, which can be engagement-changing, but normally not as drastically (certainly not as often) as the FC can.

The Techmarine starts with a very good bolter, can be made into hard av, disrupt and tank in melee and become quite a hard counter to HI. He supports his army with damage mostly but can also be something of a lone wolf when you need him to. Hell he's vaguely like an Apo (and anti-Apo lul) for vehicles.

Think the Apo gets a bit of a rough deal because there are quite a few very strong players who main him (or rather used to before they realised how crap he really is), who made it look like he was very strong when in fact they were just using him really well.

Can the whirlwind health be decreased?

It's a support/artillery vehicle, much similar to manticore, and sits way in the back. In certain maps (such as top vp on argus), it is already very difficult to kill this thing already. (yes, I made an argument based on maps, but that is still a fair point since whirlwind is a situational unit anyways).

The effectiveness of this vehicle has nothing to do with its health, and since its ability and damage are getting buffed, it'd be fair to nerf its health. (although I'd have to play 2.2 to have a good feel for those buffs)

FiSH wrote:Can the whirlwind health be decreased?

It's a support/artillery vehicle, much similar to manticore, and sits way in the back. In certain maps (such as top vp on argus), it is already very difficult to kill this thing already. (yes, I made an argument based on maps, but that is still a fair point since whirlwind is a situational unit anyways).

The effectiveness of this vehicle has nothing to do with its health, and since its ability and damage are getting buffed, it'd be fair to nerf its health. (although I'd have to play 2.2 to have a good feel for those buffs)

rofl it has 100 more HP than manti, and is very easily taken down

Kvek wrote:rofl it has 100 more HP than manti, and is very easily taken down

actually, 125.
also, unless the opponent has melta storms/tele fc/tanks or something like that, if you lose your whirlwind, you just messed up.

EDIT: and if your opponent is Eldar, because everyone hates everything about them, right?

FiSH wrote:

Kvek wrote:rofl it has 100 more HP than manti, and is very easily taken down

actually, 125.
also, unless the opponent has melta storms/tele fc/tanks or something like that, if you lose your whirlwind, you just messed up.

It has 400 hp.
and the whirlwind is almost useless the only thing it does is disrupt and for that cost=useless. and honestly if you can't take down a whirlwind you are just a noob

Kvek wrote:
It has 400 hp.
and the whirlwind is almost useless the only thing it does is disrupt and for that cost=useless. and honestly if you can't take down a whirlwind you are just a noob

Dude. 400 - 275 = 125. 125 as in it has 125 more hp than the manti.
Also, would you also call me a noob if I was complaining about manticores being difficult to kill? (because they are difficult to kill...)
On the top of that, did you even read my original post carefully? First of all, it does slight damage at the moment (whereas you claim that it only disrupts, which in certain matchups e.g. orkz, is REALLY annoying). In the next patch, it is set to get a damage buff. Secondly, its hunter killer missile is also getting a cooldown reduction. Seriously, if you're saying that it is useless in all matchups, then you are being plain ignorant.

sigh the whirlwind will do really HIGH damage.
Manticore has higher range...
It has 400HP (Chech the codex....)
For the cost it's useless
If you don't know how to kill the whirlwind (vehicles, flanking,)
It will go easily down to a few AV shots
Nerf it's hp and it will not survive one rear missile shot...

The WLW is useless, you cannot rely on it AT ALL, it has a shorther range than the manti overall hence the very very sightly more HP, and the hunter killed missile has an even shorter range than it's standard attack making it a very risky thing to use, especially considering that the WLW is almost if not as slow as the manti when moving, perhaps it's sightly faster im not entirely sure.

slight damage at the moment

It's absolutely negligible, now or after patch it doesn't matter, beside the missile needs to hit first, which never happens, not even against giant blobs, and having to count on sheer randomness in your strategy means losing to beign with, in the end, it's useless in any and every MU.

Ace of Swords wrote:The WLW is useless, you cannot rely on it AT ALL, it has a shorther range than the manti overall hence the very very sightly more HP, and the hunter killed missile has an even shorter range than it's standard attack making it a very risky thing to use, especially considering that the WLW is almost if not as slow as the manti when moving, perhaps it's sightly faster im not entirely sure.

faster,

I thinks that in this way it is now cyclone missiles is bad thing. I think need to do that they were shooting as SM rocket turret. More accurate for the infantry, but with less damage. Barrage leave as ability. Who thinks the same, your opinions?

If you guys argued that whirlwinds are useless in 1v1, then I can related to that. On the other hand, in team games, I really can't see how they are useless. Yes, the game is balanced around 1v1s, but noone gets them in 1v1s anyways.

Doesn't matter which game mode, if the missile doesn't hit it's useless, and it isn't like a manticore strike which is 100% controlled and it's the player's fault if it doesn't hit, it's completely random and UNRELIABLE.

It's definitely more reliable if you ground attack. on top of that, both of you guys are really missing the point that I'm trying to make.

I'm not saying the effectiveness of the whirlwind needs to take a nerf, I'm absolutely fine with it doing its job better. I will repeat what I've said before: Its effectiveness is not affected by the amount of health it has. Would IG players get manti if it had 200hp? Probably, if the situation calls for it.

I'm glad that at least Tex thinks it can be useful:
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/in ... pic=926841

EDIT: Also, just ask your teammate to get a whirlwind alongside, and watch the enemy rage There's a reason why it's capped to 1/player...

He is theoryzing, and unfortunately only that, since it doesn't work also you just linked a topic where the uselessness of the wlw is beign discussed.

Well you a re not saying it's effectivness needs a nerf. You said if it can get health-nerf
How will it survive with EVEN lower health ??
Usually if the enemy team has a whirlwind it goes easily down. At least for me

Would be the Whirlwind more usefull if their rockets go more concentrated instead of the current dispersion, but reducing a bit the damage?

Aslong as it's precise and controllable with attack ground yes.

The thing is, they have to go where you point your mouse not in random directions.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Would be the Whirlwind more usefull if their rockets go more concentrated instead of the current dispersion, but reducing a bit the damage?

It would become a spotter squad, just infinitely better. it's a vehicle, doesn't have to set up, the missiles are not an ability etc.

It's fine as it is.

dance commander wrote:It's fine as it is.

If by fine you mean useless, sure.

And how would that make it infinity better than spotter? °_O

Dark Riku wrote:

dance commander wrote:It's fine as it is.

If by fine you mean useless, sure.

And how would that make it infinity better than spotter? °_O

For the reasons I mentioned, the missile barrage is not an ability, it doesn't set up, there is not a warning of the incoming shell, more range, being a vehicle able to move faster around the map and stay behind, also the at missile.

You want to give it a barrage that lands where you want it to? Then it has to lose something, be it a longer cooldwon, reduced health, less rockets or whatever.

Spotter are t1, cost less, actually are reliable, don't die immediately after a snare, can retreat, don't have to set-up either, can cast malignent blindness on a spot, etc etc.

make a missile always impact on the targeted location; the rest can remain as they are now.