Dawn of War Codex

Torpid wrote:They're 20 power for a reason.

And they offer far more than detection with kb on demand at long range. The longest sight range of any unit in the game and the addition of an extra capping squad.

In every high level 1v1 with eldar that I play in atm I see them except vs non-IQ IG.

I know that the knee-jerk response to hearing a unit is terrible is to disprove it, but trying to say that Rangers are a vital staple of Eldar play isn't really true at all. Just to offer a differing viewpoint:

They are far more expensive with their upgrade, which is kind of mandatory if you want them to be able to infiltrate things and not sit around doing very little.

Farseer also has longer sight range. You never hear anyone talking about what a huge boon that is. On a unit such as Rangers which require a huge micro-tax just to keep them alive (being as squishy as Scouts without the melee resist or any of the survivability upgrades) a bit of farther vision is a pretty low trade-off.

Getting "an extra capping squad" isn't really an argument. You could literally say the same thing about every infantry unit in the game aside from Rippers. Either way, having an extra capping squad which is designed to shoot from very far away isn't all that useful since you don't want them sitting around on a point at the front of your formation. But this is a moot point overall since, had you not bought Rangers, you'd still have another capping squad in the form of the unit you'd get instead. They might have a lessened cost, but they're not free, and you can still get a Shuri or Dire Avenger for just a tad more than you need to invest in Rangers.

In my purely subjective experience, that last statement is a lie. I know that everyone has a different view of things, and while I don't watch too many pro 1v1s anymore since I'm not much into spectating, I can count the number of times I've seen Rangers come up in high level play in the most recent patch on the fingers of one hand. That might not be a fully accurate statement, but I'm VERY skeptical of anyone who says that they appear "in every high level 1v1".

Overall, they are very much a weak unit to my eyes. They do pretty much only offer detection and knockback every now and then (which neither does damage without the upgrade nor suppresses for those comparing it to a long-range shotgun blast) with the gimmick of Holo-Field if you upgrade them. In my opinion, that really doesn't justify any of the cost in resources (even if they are cheaper) or micro since they basically have zero impact on the field themselves. You're free to disagree of course, but there's a reason that people have been consistently saying that Rangers need some kind of love since waaaaaaaay back.

You saw a lot of Rangers because you were primarily playing SM, Torpid. You just need them vs SM otherwise infiltrated scout grenades will nullify your shuri play and bleed you as the game goes on. And if you didnt build rangers so that shuris arent reliable because of scouts, what is left to use? Banshees and DA only vs SM?

Keep in mind that players aren't as good as they used to be. Back when the game was more competitive people could do so much more with them compared to people now. I forget the last time I saw an Eldar player use Holofield to stealth their Banshees past the base turrets and wipe squads. I forget the last time I saw an Eldar player combo a Kinetic Pulse into a grenade. People just a-move them now.

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Keep in mind that players aren't as good as they used to be. Back when the game was more competitive people could do so much more with them compared to people now. I forget the last time I saw an Eldar player use Holofield to stealth their Banshees past the base turrets and wipe squads. I forget the last time I saw an Eldar player combo a Kinetic Pulse into a grenade. People just a-move them now.

........... you can still do these things and people still do the problem is they don't do anything afterwards and this is the other 1.5 unit for eldar

boss wrote:Your the only one who think that ranges are great god knows why.

False.

Kvn wrote:Farseer also has longer sight range. You never hear anyone talking about what a huge boon that is.

Because people are idiots. That's a great boon for the farseer to have!

Phoenix wrote:You saw a lot of Rangers because you were primarily playing SM, Torpid. You just need them vs SM otherwise infiltrated scout grenades will nullify your shuri play and bleed you as the game goes on. And if you didnt build rangers so that shuris arent reliable because of scouts, what is left to use? Banshees and DA only vs SM?

Well, yes you need them vs SM and nids in particular.

But I think they're very strong vs chaos too. Orks less so unless KN obviously. So WB/mek, no. And LC/LG.

They're good in mirrors, just one for the detection/holo-field.

So basically I get them vs everything except BC, WB, Mek, LC and LG. So that's 14/19.

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The only time you get rangers is vs a knob, la and a sorc and sm with Scouts that's all.

knob la sorc +all sm heroes

considering rangers cost 20 power and have a great long range kb i think it's fine?

Antandron wrote:In a vain effort to git gud I watched a few dozen Eldar replays of 2.7 games and Rangers featured no more than a fifth of the time. It appears that in T1, 2 x DA, Banshees and SWP (30p) are almost mandatory, as are 2 x Battle Equipment (30p) and Aspect of Strength or Fleetness (20p).

Aye. Correct. But there's no reason you cannot add a ranger to that given their cost. In fact 2 shurikens are veyr common. 1 ranger and 2 shuri is still not abnormally expensive in 1v1.

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Antandron wrote:

Torpid wrote:

Antandron wrote:In a vain effort to git gud I watched a few dozen Eldar replays of 2.7 games and Rangers featured no more than a fifth of the time. It appears that in T1, 2 x DA, Banshees and SWP (30p) are almost mandatory, as are 2 x Battle Equipment (30p) and Aspect of Strength or Fleetness (20p).

Aye. Correct. But there's no reason you cannot add a ranger to that given their cost. In fact 2 shurikens are veyr common. 1 ranger and 2 shuri is still not abnormally expensive in 1v1.

I think you`re neglecting the almost mandatory DA and Banshee upgrades in your calculatons. If we agree that 2xDA, BS, SWP and upgrades is a good default, this equals 80p. Adding any more units which require power is a bit risky. Especially if it is another 30p on an uninspiring unit that takes easy casulties and bleeds power(!!!) of all things.

Are the sniper rifles even necessary for Rangers? Why not make them a simple 3-eldar recon with detection, high sight range and long rifles (that do not snipe, but are simply longer range shuriken pistols) for a small power cost (as Eldar T1 is already high in power requirements) with the option of an Exarch upgrade to make them a bit more resilient. An Eldar copy of SM scouts basically.

The new rangers are only 20p and you shouldn't ever bleed any models on them except intentionally losing the first one so they are only 4 pop... It is VERY easy to fit that into any eldar t1. Now, obviously a foe can fast-tech if you go for such a huge T1 using their own SUTs defensively behind green cover to counter yours etc etc. That beats it since eldar are not very good at gen-bashing but... That's fine.

Typically in the SM MU for example you will 2 da, shee, 2 shuri, ranger. If they go dev you get ranger first, if they go upgraded scouts first you get ranger 2nd and some DA upgrades probs avoid the 2nd shuri. IF they go ASM first you go 2nd shuri. The SM ends up going 2 fully upgraded scouts (meaning 80 power), ASM which is 50 power and some hero wargears, plus a potential tac flamer to. So you end up with a t1 of near 200 power. They may also if things get brutal on both sides spend 300 req to drop in the extra tac squad in t1. Or vs a warlock throw in a devastator too.

Eldar in comparison would get 1 hero wargear, let's put that at 25 power on average. 2 shuri (60), ranger (20), shee upgrade (20), 2 DA upgrade (30). Totally 25+60+20+20+30 = 155 power. They can bump that up with more wargear or some DA exarchs, but no exarchs next patch.

Not playing a lot these days, just my additional impression... I have seen and done very nasty things to heretics with kinetic shot, and once the kinshot goes off, high count - models do start falling. Not really my place to say if the are balanced or not. But maybe it's the lack of immersion that can be frustrating. Generally, seeing the best marksmen in the galaxy struggling to even tickle imperial guards can be disturbing. I know this game is not supposed to be constrained by the fluff, but few SM players would like the ASM to become light infantry in exchange of better retreat kills. (I've had the same grudge for a long time with super slow eldar tanks).

But maybe there is simply no way in this game to have a fun sniper mechanic like there is in CoH2. Maybe some unique T2 or T3 survival upgrade could let them shine a bit more, such as canceling the detector trait of surrounding enemies for a limited time, or being able to cap undetected.

Thibix Magnus wrote: I have seen and done very nasty things to heretics with kinetic shot, and once the kinshot goes off, high count - models do start falling.

Not a balance comment, but I would like to point out that Kinetic Pulse no longer does damage without the upgrade, and the upgrade makes them pretty expensive.