Anti-infantry squads counter transports

[Asmon]

The change has been applied for every smoke-like ability.

No it hasn't ^^ Catachans have a different smoke bomb then the rest.

I'm pretty sure Caeltos told me it was also the case for the Razorback. Gonna check it.

[Vapor]

The change has been applied for every smoke-like ability.

No it hasn't ^^ Catachans have a different smoke bomb then the rest.

I'm pretty sure Caeltos told me it was also the case for the Razorback. Gonna check it.

I think the kommando squad one is also unchanged from retail, maybe you could test that one too but I think it still reduces outgoing ranged dmg.

[Sub_Zero]

I managed to destroy a chaos predator with kommando squad. I used smoke bomb. I dropped it under their feet, they were shooting from the smoke cloud. So I think their smoke bomb is similar to smoke bomb of catachans.

[Maestro Cretella]

I usually am not motivated enough to post on forums, but this bothers me enough.

[*]TCSM do not counter vehicles. Vehicles counter TCSM. TCSM can do some light damage to vehicles, but in practice, and with actual micro, vehicles bleed and kill TCSM while taking only minimal damage in return. The light damage that TCSM do to vehicles is mostly good to supplement actual AV, or to finish off a nearly dead vehicle that is unsupported.

[*]A price increase to TCSM is a phenomenally bad idea. TCSM are an extremely good unit, and their limitation is that they are already very expensive. 2x fully upgraded TCSM is prohibitively expensive and almost doesn't exist as a viable 1v1 build, and only exists in teams because its weaknesses (primarily a lopsided composition with insufficient AV) can be compensated for by your teammate(s).

[*]The preponderance of TCSM over KCSM is not because of TCSM being too good and too cheap, or because of KCSM being too expensive or too weak. People get TCSM because compositionally it just makes more sense. CSM are the only infantry-based source of moderate to high ranged dps that Chaos has until terminators in tier 3. KCSM on the other hand, are somewhat redundant because Heretics, Raptors and Bloodletters can fill somewhat similar roles. A price adjustment would not change this. If you wanted to promote more KCSM play, you would need to provide Chaos with an alternate source of ranged DPS that is available in either tier 1 or tier 2, while being relatively cheap on power.

[*]Buy ASM and jump on TCSM. This should be obvious enough, and it will have the two benefits of instantly nullifying all that ranged dps while bleeding the TCSM models. ASM are practically a go-to buy for SM, and jumping on ranged squads with the intent of countering them is a staple strategy for dealing with high ranged dps anything in this game.

[*]Lastly, MICRO. It's already been said. Any of the pros would not have let their razorback get shot for more than a few seconds, at least not without a smoke bomb. Even the rest of us with average micro and reactions can get it out of there in 5-10 seconds. At 24 seconds, this is an issue of player skill and not balance.

[Sub_Zero]

Your post is mockery. You teach me how to counter tzeentch marines and I did not ask about it. You tell me obvious things about khorne marines and this thread is not about them. You protect your favourite units saying that they are expensive but for things they do they are kind of cheap. And you say me they do not counter vehicles. No, they do, watch my replay. If it takes a lot of time to kill an unsupported vehicle it still means they counter unsupported vehicles. Because some transport on its own cannot win against them.

The only thing I want to discuss here is unsupported vehicle vs 2 tzeentch marines. Vehicle has to back off and has to be repaired or it is going down. Current performance of tzeentch marines does not allow transports to push them back. And if some transport does not engage them without support they still can kill it later. When it is low on health. Especially rear hits. And they do it very fast because they have burst weapon type.

This is what I've mentioned in the first post.

P. S. No need to say that vehicles must be supported and can be repaired and other obvious facts. I know it.

Anyway I am done, I've seen enough posts.

[Vapor]

If it takes a lot of time to kill an unsupported vehicle it still means they counter unsupported vehicles.

That's not how it works, I mean a dreadnought/tank will win against an unsupported brightlance, does that mean that dreadnoughts counter brightlances? I don't think so. Also you have to factor in cost efficiency, no one in their right mind is going to sit there bleeding models with TCSM trying to take out a razorback that can just back away and get repaired.

[Torpid]

Sub-Zero, you clearly have a flawed understanding of the way in which vehicles work in this game as has been illustrated in these most recent posts. I think that concludes this topic to be honest.

[Nurland]

Seriously now. Not a single one person in the forums has agreed with you Mr. Mortal Combat. In fact most of the people around here have been plainly disagreeing with you (some of them even being quite established players)
Maybe you should consider the off chance that you might actually be wrong here.

[Kithrixx]

If it takes a lot of time to kill an unsupported vehicle it still means they counter unsupported vehicles. Because some transport on its own cannot win against them.

Anything can kill anything. Every unit does a minimum amount of damage. This is not Company of Heroes, where rifles are actually completely useless against tanks. I have seen Heretics melee a Baneblade to death, and it was hilarious. Just because something can kill an unsupported vehicle does not mean that it is a counter.

[Torpid]

It also may be useful here to take a read at what we came to a consensus about regarding soft/hard counters in this thread. pg 3+

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=225&hilit=Soft+Counter+Hard&start=20

[Sub_Zero]

Soft, hard, fluffy counter... When I say unit A counters unit B it means that unit A defeats unit B in combat and leaves no chance for victory.

For example, fully upgraded assault space marines jump on fully upgraded banshees (aspect doesn't matter), disrupt them, land successfull merciless strike (damage all models) and defeat them (if banshees are not lucky with random special attacks). In this instance unit A counters unit B. However if banshees avoid the jump, dodge merciless strike then they win. But assault marines have to jump on supression teams or snipers. When they try to force them off banshees have free reign. And in this instance they counter assault marines.

So I wanted to say that razorback SHALL bleed tzeentch marines if it is getting repair support. However when there is no repair support tzeentch marines will counter this unit. And you told me that I know nothing about how vehicles work. My point is clear. When my opponent has no counters (units who defeat transports on their own) to razorback I should not even care about repair support. That is why I think tzeentch marines are broken. They are not supposed to be a counter to vehicles (that unit who defeats transports on their own) but in fact they do counter them.

Seriously now. Not a single one person in the forums has agreed with you Mr. Mortal Combat.

Is my name Mr. Mortal Combat? I am not going to call you Mr. Guy From Norway. The fact that nobody has agreed with me does not mean I should say I was not right. I have created this thread only to see what others think. And I have seen it. But that does not change my opinion about the thing.

[saltychipmunk]

how can you possibly be defending your stance still. It is so ludicrous .



vehicles like razors are light fucking vehicles. You think 2 ts marines do damage to them .


what the fuck do you do when some one actually gets an av weapon . do you pull out a knife and commit seppuku on the spot?


light vehicles counter pierce damage , they have NEVER been good on their own . to anything. other than early t1 units

power weapons soft counter vehicles , shit like this has been apparent to the community since the release 4 years ago . Get with the bloody program.'


GRAAAAAAH

[Raffa]

Ignore all other responses. I can confirm beyond all doubt that TCSM are a hard counter to razorbacks and my go-to choice when faced with any vehicle.

I can't recommend them highly enough as AV!!!

[Ace of Swords]

The RB is a vehicle to transport your units quickly to Y to X point, aswell as a reinforce beacon, the fact that it does damage is pretty much an extra.

[saltychipmunk]

The RB is a vehicle to transport your units quickly to Y to X point, aswell as a reinforce beacon, the fact that it does damage is pretty much an extra.

the damage is kinda what justifies its price point and pop point ,

it is kinda why the gk rhino was forced to reduce its cost so extensively.

regardless your point is spot on.

[Ace of Swords]

The gk rhino is in a way different spot, it doesn't reinforce in any tier, and comes out in t1 with HI armor and no weapons.

[Kithrixx]

Soft, hard, fluffy counter... When I say unit A counters unit B it means that unit A defeats unit B in combat and leaves no chance for victory.

Okay, so you're considering the term "counter" to be a hard counter in every instance.

For example, fully upgraded assault space marines jump on fully upgraded banshees (aspect doesn't matter), disrupt them, land successfull merciless strike (damage all models) and defeat them (if banshees are not lucky with random special attacks). In this instance unit A counters unit B. However if banshees avoid the jump, dodge merciless strike then they win. But assault marines have to jump on supression teams or snipers. When they try to force them off banshees have free reign. And in this instance they counter assault marines.

And then you contradicted that.

Let me break it down for you.

A Soft Counter is something that is effective against a certain unit, but can be worked around with micro. For example, Vengeance Rounds are a soft counter to vehicles. What you described with the Salts and Shees are an instance of two Soft Counters colliding - the victor will be decided by micro.

A Hard Counter is something that is effective against a certain unit to the point where it is designed to defeat that certain unit. For example, Flamers are a hard counter to Rippers, an Lascannons a hard counter to vehicles.

There is a distinction between these two terms because they are different things. You should not lump them together because you are essentially saying that all fruit should taste the same, which is pretty wrong considering that apples and oranges and bananas are pretty damn different.

There isn't any sort of argument or alternate viewpoint to be had here. You got dunked by an overwhelming amount of soft counter because your micro blew chunks and because you expected the Razorback to beat up a bunch of infantry for you despite the fact that it's primarily a transport and it only has a gun as something of a courtesy.

[saltychipmunk]

The gk rhino is in a way different spot, it doesn't reinforce in any tier, and comes out in t1 with HI armor and no weapons.

true , but we should also take into account that it is t1 , which means it should not be as powerful as a t2 transport since it can be accessed so much faster.

but at the same time lacking the reinforce / the gun made its former price waaay to much.


10 pop and the original price point for just a transport and nothing more in t1 where money is barely starting to flow in , is rather risky

[Nurland]

Is my name Mr. Mortal Combat? I am not going to call you Mr. Guy From Norway. The fact that nobody has agreed with me does not mean I should say I was not right. I have created this thread only to see what others think. And I have seen it. But that does not change my opinion about the thing.

Well Sub Zero is a Mortal Combat character and all (hence the Mortal Combat reference). Nurland on the other hand has nothing to do with Norway. If it does, please feel free to tell me. Anyways my apologies if you found that reference insulting.

So you think you are right and all the other players wrong? Even as quite a few of them don't actually main Chaos, are skilled players and have a good understanding of the game and its mechanics?

The fact that nobody is agreeing with you might not always be the grounds for assuming you are wrong but it should at least make you think your opinion again. Especially since most of the people disagreeing with you possess superior skill and understanding of this game compared to you.

[Sub_Zero]

Oh come on! You just don't get my point. What do you know about my skill? How can you judge my understanding of this game?

Anyway this thread leads nowhere. I ask to close it.

[Indrid]

Okay don't see much more discussion potential here, locking thread.

Moral of the story: keep something still for 25 seconds in DoW2 and a lot of things will be able to destroy it.