Veteran Marines: Put in the Stronghold?

[Nurland]

Melee specials can influence melee fights quite significantly. One or two lucky specials can change the outcome of a battle if the squads are closely matched or make a fight that should be quite one sided become very close.

I mean I have seen my full hp KCSM lose to a BL squad in Retail. Stat wise KCSM should have quite the edge there 1v1 (KCSM have 50% more health and 10% less damage). The Letters just got off some nice specials and won quite easily (both squads were lvl1).

[Torpid]

I was thinking - you know in t2 when you see sluggas/stormboys fighting other t2 melee squads like shees and ASM, you rarely see the boy orks getting specials, just the nobs.

Is it the case that only the nob has 70 MS and the rest of the boys have 60 MS still? If so then are specials still more likely to proc vs the boys or are they treating as having 70 MS defensively but not offensively? Or am I just imagining things and t2 slugga boys do still proc specials vs things with 60+ MS when they get their nob.

[Raffa]

I would expect bloodletters to take KCSM actually.

They have awesome specials and pull them off alot. Plus the v. high damage. Love them as a unit. They massacre most infantry in a straight up fight (including banshees - fuck yeahhh!!!) and with worship support are pretty much the ultimate t2 melee unit, along with melee synapse genes.

But I miss heavy melee

@Torpid
Yeh I've noticed the same thing alot

[Nurland]

Raffa. I was talking about Retail. In Elite BL murder KCSM. But in Retail they don't.

[Dark Riku]

And why I consider melee skill as a minor parameter because with each level you gain only 1 point of melee skill which is not a huge difference.

1 point difference in MS skill means all the world! Being 1 point higher means you can't get specialed by the other squad. Unless you have some special trait like KCSM.

[Raffa]

Unless you have some special trait like KCSM.

What trait is this?

[Orkfaeller]

I think they have like a passive Special Attack / Knockback chance,

similar to the Thunder Hammer perhaps?

[Asmon]

I was thinking - you know in t2 when you see sluggas/stormboys fighting other t2 melee squads like shees and ASM, you rarely see the boy orks getting specials, just the nobs.

Is it the case that only the nob has 70 MS and the rest of the boys have 60 MS still? If so then are specials still more likely to proc vs the boys or are they treating as having 70 MS defensively but not offensively? Or am I just imagining things and t2 slugga boys do still proc specials vs things with 60+ MS when they get their nob.

At level 1 Boyz have 60MS and Nobz have 70MS, just as you first guessed.

About KCSM: when they were introduced in retail they had a special trait which grants them a passive chance to perform special attacks, independantly of MS. Afaik that was never removed, but I still don't have tested it, since LSoN asked about it.

[Codex]

Melee skill is NOT a minor parameter. It's a key part of this game, and it's why I keep an eye on levels quite often.

As Riku said, MS is a defensive stat as well as an offensive stat. So, for reference, a level 5 apo can no longer be knocked back by level 4 banshees (Apo has more melee skill due to 1 higher level and same base MS), which means that any melee commander with level 5 or higher are immune from being procced on! (Although if they proc a special on a squad there's nothing to prevent them knocking over the commander if he's caught in the AOE).

Really isn't a minor stat.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I'm going to quote myself about MoK CSM "hidden special attack trait"

I read all the single attributes with Cope's DOW2 Toolbox from "ebps" and "sbps" about the (chaos)Tactical Marines. I read all the abilities which (chaos) Tactical Marines have in "ability". I read the attributes for the MoK CSM in "Upgrade". And of course the "wargear" and "Weapon" attributes for the Chain axe.

And guess what. I don't found a single fucking evidence which says that MoK CSM can do more special attacks than any other 70 melee skill squad.

wa1243agh suggested that CSM with MoK could do more special attacks because when you buy a mark for them they sometimes are level 2, with 60+1 melee skill. Add +10 for the MoK and voila, 71 melee skill.

Still, it's simple: High resources, 1vs1, the map which Indrid used in his "Which squad it's shootiest" video, test 20 level 1 MoK EW AC CSM against 20 level 1 ASM+Sargent, 1vs1 battles, save replay, post replay.

[M4573R_CH13f]

Melee skill is NOT a minor parameter. It's a key part of this game, and it's why I keep an eye on levels quite often.

As Riku said, MS is a defensive stat as well as an offensive stat. So, for reference, a level 5 apo can no longer be knocked back by level 4 banshees (Apo has more melee skill due to 1 higher level and same base MS), which means that any melee commander with level 5 or higher are immune from being procced on! (Although if they proc a special on a squad there's nothing to prevent them knocking over the commander if he's caught in the AOE).

Really isn't a minor stat.

i thought melee special-attacks perform as a result of melee skill starting at 5% propability for same-skilly units. so 1 more melee skill should mean, that one squad has 4% and the leveled one 6% propability. so that would mean, only a lvl9 non-moving commander is immune to specials by lvl4 melee squad (that start with 70 skill)
correct me if i'm wrong. i thought 1 skillpoint= 1% propability

[Dark Riku]

You are wrong:

If the attacker has a lower melee skill, the difference is used as a negative modifier that is further multiplied by 5 (5% - 5x%). Effectively, having a Melee Skill of even 1 point lower than the defender means there is no chance of making special attacks at all (5% - 5% = 0%). Having a negative final percentage (below 0%) has no effect.

Source

Still, it's simple: High resources, 1vs1, the map which Indrid used in his "Which squad it's shootiest" video, test 20 level 1 MoK EW AC CSM against 20 level 1 ASM+Sargent, 1vs1 battles, save replay, post replay.

Go ahead. Nobody is stopping you ^^

[Sub_Zero]

I hear for the first time about special trait of khorne marines. Where did you get that information?

I used them quite a lot in retail playing as chaos and did not notice random knockbacks.

[Sneery_Thug]

Btw, isn't it a good idea to - as Sub Zero suggested - give Vanguards (not asm) a passive leap/ knockback ability - to even out the loss of the melta bomb ?

Since the melta bomb is one of the main key abilities in the sm-play. And most players won't purchase vanguards even if the opponent has mostly infantry-based army, just to keep the possibility to stun a potential vehicle.

(But don't put them into the stronghold - you almost always need an asm squad in t1, but you never need a second one in t3 .)

[Kvek]

Btw, isn't it a good idea to - as Sub Zero suggested - give Vanguards (not asm) a passive leap/ knockback ability - to even out the loss of the melta bomb ?

Since the melta bomb is one of the main key abilities in the sm-play. And most players won't purchase vanguards even if the opponent has mostly infantry-based army, just to keep the possibility to stun a potential vehicle.

Melta bomb is great, that's true, it's a key ability for somebody. but if you already have a lot of av, flying purifiers are great, they beat the shit out of every t2 unit, and are quite a good answer to Nobz (if you have a fc/some disruption)
moving them to t2 would be ridiculous and would make SM t2 extremly OP.
About the leap, i don't think it's a good idea either, they already have a shitload of ways to kb shit. (merciless, jump) giving them a kb leap would be too much.


ps. i'm going to call them flying puris, since they beat puris. (and with luck they beat them even without merciless)

[ThongSong]

t2 vanguard veterans would be ridiculous. There are pretty much no t2 infantry squads (perhaps genestealers, but vanguard vets would simply rip apart warriors providing the synapse, that could stand up to a 1.8k hp heavy infantry jump squad with 30-40 power melee dps weapons, with a sarge that has a 360 tracking special

[Torpid]

And merciless strike. Well me and Kvek did some testing yesterday and it is as absurd as we originally thought to suggest vanguard would be t2 units.

Vanguard roflstomp ogryns and purifiers, purifiers are defeated handily (50-75% hp remaining on vans) when both the jump and merciless are landed, and they win with about 20% hp when no abilities are used. Add to that the fact that the apo and FC make vans tremendously stronger, nah it would be absolutely insane. You've basically got jumping ogryns in t2, and people laughed when I jokingly suggested it one time, but nobody does when Riku does, in fact, vanguards are better than ogryns with jet-packs

It appears to me that Riku just attempts to push the boundaries with what could be deemed balanced with regards to space marines, but nothing else. That's ok I guess Riku, but if you continue to do that it is going to become nearly impossible to grant your opinion any validity with regards to any of the other races which indefinitely you seem to complain about, rather than proposing buffs, despite SM being very strong atm.

[Kvek]

t2 vanguard veterans would be ridiculous. There are pretty much no t2 infantry squads (perhaps genestealers, but vanguard vets would simply rip apart warriors providing the synapse, that could stand up to a 1.8k hp heavy infantry jump squad with 30-40 power melee dps weapons, with a sarge that has a 360 tracking special

in a 1v1 fight, vans would pretty much win, and in a genes with support>vans, but vans with support>genes with support (MS)

[Dark Riku]

It appears to me that Riku just attempts to push the boundaries with what could be deemed balanced with regards to space marines, but nothing else. That's ok I guess Riku, but if you continue to do that it is going to become nearly impossible to grant your opinion any validity with regards to any of the other races which indefinitely you seem to complain about, rather than proposing buffs, despite SM being very strong atm.

Torpid seriously. Use your brain for once instead of these useless personal attacks. Validity? You wanna get your numbers straight before you even post again.

Vangaurds as of now are totally useless. Unless in the rare case that your asm are still level 1-2 in T3 after you get a real T3 unit out first and you don't need the meltabombs, aka never, or if you are winning and trolling your opponent.

I never asked for the exact same vangaurd in T2. They do the same power melee damage KCSM do atm. This could go down by a rather small amount. Hammer could become an upgrade or just get unlocked once you reach T3. The health regen can easily go. There are many possibilities here.

in fact, vanguards are better than ogryns with jet-packs

Since when are asm SHI and do heavy melee?

[Torpid]

I never asked for the exact same vangaurd in T2. They do the same power melee damage KCSM do atm. This could go down by a rather small amount. Hammer could become an upgrade or just get unlocked once you reach T3. The health regen can easily go. There are many possibilities here.

Ok, sweet, that makes a lot more sense. Still that's quite a radical change, so some earlier guidance as to how such a change would be done in a balanced manner would have been helpful. That being said, I'm still extremely shaky about having a squad as durable as ASM and having merciless strike and doing power melee being a t2 jump squad.

in fact, vanguards are better than ogryns with jet-packs

Since when are asm SHI and do heavy melee?

Well SHI only really is different from HI based on ranged damage and since they would have a jump pack it wouldn't really matter about ranged damage. They don't do heavy melee, but when considering ogyrns with jump packs the first thing that comes to my mind is not then jumping behind walkers to catch it in retreat. Ogryns also lack merciless strike.

[Forestradio]

ummmmm

Current vanguards do MORE dps than KCSM.

Vans have two 30 dps models (power swords) one 40 dps model (lightning claw) and one 45 dps model (thunder hammer).

KCSM have four 30 dps models. (they get plasma pistols instead of bolt ones, but that's a minor difference).

As for purifiers vs vans, purifiers are better at retreat killing, have nice anti-blob, and work very well with bro-cap and GK libby buffs.
Don't pretend that only vans can be supported by their commanders and purifiers can't be supported.

[ThongSong]

vanguard vets are some of my favourite units in the game. I will sometimes rush t3 just to get a sacred lulstandard and vanguard vets. they absolutely wreck every infantry unit (except lightning termies) that Chaos can put on the field. Raptors? No problem. KCSM? please. you're mincemeat for vanguard veterans.

Also vanguard veterans are also able to stand up to melee heroes in ways regular asm can only tickle them with their 29 odd dps chainswords.

[Nurland]

Just some numbers for reference: ASM dps is 26,92 melee per model and 30,77 power melee for the sarge. KCSM do 30,77 power melee but I don't think I have ever seen KCSM used without EW so it elevates their dps to the same level with VG (36,924 dps power melee per model). KCSM overall dps is 147,7 and VG have 146,5 dps.

[Caeltos]

Best to keep in mind that Vanguards have also quite a high health regeneration value while in combat.

[Dark Riku]

That being said, I'm still extremely shaky about having a squad as durable as ASM and having merciless strike and doing power melee being a t2 jump squad.

I'm curious to what blooletters are for you then. They are only missing the merciless strike. For the rest they do more dps (180 power melee) while being beefy under worship and can phase out for more staying power or a safe escape.

Well SHI only really is different from HI based on ranged damage and since they would have a jump pack it wouldn't really matter about ranged damage.

Why wouldn't it matter..? Jump units can take a volley of fire before jumping in if there is LoS or can be stuck walking when they are out of energy (or are possibly drained from it) or get snared/stunned. I really don't see how it doesn't mater.

They don't do heavy melee, but when considering ogyrns with jump packs the first thing that comes to my mind is not then jumping behind walkers to catch it in retreat.

I take it's asm/vangaurd you are referring to because Ogryns do heavy melee.
You wouldn't jump after a vehicle with a heavy melee jump squad...? It doesn't make sense to me. I guess the "not" has to sneak his way out of this sentence?^^

Ogryns also lack merciless strike.

~They instead have a charge that also does knockback.

[Torpid]

That being said, I'm still extremely shaky about having a squad as durable as ASM and having merciless strike and doing power melee being a t2 jump squad.

I'm curious to what blooletters are for you then. They are only missing the merciless strike. For the rest they do more dps (180 power melee) while being beefy under worship and can phase out for more staying power or a safe escape.

I'm just going reply to this because the rest is really irrelevant, but I feel I must reply to this. Firstly bloodletters are far less durable having 600hp less, and having only infantry armour. Yes, they are very strong with worship support, but so are ASM with hero support (more so than chaos hero support offers), not to mention that means the tics are forced into that specific role of worship. Merciless is very very powerful, also bloodletter's jumps don't knockback, furthermore they are slower and telegraphed. ASM also have fairly decent ranged damage.

[Faultron]

Best to keep in mind that Vanguards have also quite a high health regeneration value while in combat.

+ jumping lol



and torpid ,torpedod' his target:)

[Forestradio]

Just some numbers for reference: ASM dps is 26,92 melee per model and 30,77 power melee for the sarge. KCSM do 30,77 power melee but I don't think I have ever seen KCSM used without EW so it elevates their dps to the same level with VG (36,924 dps power melee per model). KCSM overall dps is 147,7 and VG have 146,5 dps.

But KCSM don't get a squad leader with a 360 tracking special.........

The lightning claw special isn't half bad either.

[Dark Riku]

I'm just going reply to this because the rest is really irrelevant,

Insult -.- or just a poor choice of words?

Firstly bloodletters are far less durable having 600hp less,

And again some wrong numbers. They only have 400 less HP.

and having only infantry armour.

Come T2 depending on your enemy composition that can be an advantage over HI.

Yes, they are very strong with worship support, but so are ASM with hero support (more so than chaos hero support offers),

This is completely objective. ToN tics to support. Blindness to move in, etc, etc.
Lots of things can be done.

not to mention that means the tics are forced into that specific role of worship.

Like they do from T1 and onwards anyways...

Merciless is very very powerful,

Yes when it hits and the sarge doesn't derp out. I don't get the point.

also bloodletter's jumps don't knockback,

Which is actually better vs setupteams ~~

furthermore they are slower and telegraphed.

Speed 5 like the rest... Telepgraphed tp. So what?

ASM also have fairly decent ranged damage.

You've got to be joking -.-


All you did was state some random things everyone should already know and you were wrong yet again with your numbers.

For simplicities sake: Vangaurd in T2 would just be like bloodletters only a little beefier with less damage, like the trend is with all SM-Chaos units.

[Torpid]

Ok, I have no idea why I said 600, I know very well that ASM models including the sarge each have 400hp, not sure why I was thinking 1800, probably was getting late in the night ^^

That being said I pretty much disagree with the rest of the post, as I think you're underestimating the value of nearly everything I mentioned. Furthermore bloodletters are a dedicated t2 squad which you purchase separately after all your other t1 stuff (including raptors, which makes for a very melee heavy build or makes the two mutually exclusive).

Merciless changes MUs massively, it's very strong. The telegraphed jump is massive as it means you can position yourself better and easier, not to mention you can just throw a grenade in there or attack ground that spot with P devs or the like. KB on the jump in some scenarios helps more than not having it - e.g. when there is no counter initiation, not to mention it's utility vs other units more than makes up for it. Saying LI > HI in t2 isn't something objective and it depends on the specific rosters, however in general HI > LI even in t2. Furthermore the amount of times I have got wipes due to those bolt pistols on the asm are pretty innumerable, their ranged dps isn't negligible. And by slower speed I meant slower teleporting speed, assault jump happens faster than the teleport - it's harder to react to in time, that's a different point to it being less predictable.

Regarding "That Torpid Gamer wrote:
I'm just going reply to this because the rest is really irrelevant,"
"Insult -.- or just a poor choice of words?"
I basically mean you even following me up on the silly ogryn analogy is taking linguistic pedantry to levels that are just a little silly. Take that how you will...