Dawn of War Codex

No

Are you aware that you can call in capillary towers anywhere you have LOS for just 35 red?

Did you know that you can spawn rippers and spore mines from capillary towers?

Nome of your proposed changes sound like good ideas to me. Termagaunts and ravenors would be wildly OP at your suggested costs.

Devon wrote:@Riku

Let me know when you want to play hide and seek next time. You hide I seek.

You think such nonsense will get you anywhere?


As for the actual topic. You have provided no proof whatsoever for any of your claims.
Tyranids are not cost-inefficient. They do not need a cost reduction.
The ripper call-in got changed for a reason. You can still call them in via towers as explained above.
Nid AV is a real problem if you give them a slow again. We don't want Nids to be completely braindead to play with.

All I see is claims taken out of thin air mixed with some fail trolling.

@Aguxyz

The word "no" has been the most constructive reply in this forum.
The word "no" provides a good reasoning with facts behind it.

@Crew

The crap towers require time to build and can be destroyed. The LOS doesn't work on every map plus the fact that there's delay on spawning from the towers. Rippers play a role similar to LC's flare or mines. Flares are highly effective on static targets and its instant. Mines can be dropped then triggered instantly also for a 50% slow 15 seconds, even worse if you don't have detectors around. So calling rippers in isn't even close to such globals mentioned.

Clearly lowering Terma by 20 requisition would break the game, especially against shoota boy. Would someone give this Ork boy a TIER3 Shoota boy call in cause I think he's jealous of my TIER3 Terma call in.

@Riku

If you call in Tier 1 units during Tier 3, all you do is play hide and seek. How is that nonsense? I have no proof? Why do IG get ST for 200 req? Why do DA cost 10 req more but does more dps and bleed less (having less models)?

Why was rippers OP? They don't even come close to what other factions get. Tyranid AV is about same as other faction AV as far as dps, they don't instantly kill vehicles. I posted prices in fair comparison, how is that out of thin air and trolling?

Devon wrote:If you call in Tier 1 units during Tier 3, all you do is play hide and seek. How is that nonsense? I have no proof? Why do IG get ST for 200 req? Why do DA cost 10 req more but does more dps and bleed less (having less models)?

IG get a call in for less req than many others and Eldar get a basic shooting unit that performs better right out of the gate than termagants for only 10 more req because the races are asymmetrically balanced - not according to your incomprehensible definition of asymmetry, but according to the definition that pretty much every other DOW2 player goes by. The costs of units are based around the internal balance of a race roster, not by making cross-race comparisons. Banshees and DAs are individually better than their hormagaunt and termagant counterparts when you only look at raw stats and do balance in a vacuum, yet somehow nid players can find a way to make horms/terms beat DAs/shees when the units work together.

Many of the people you've been arguing with have been with the mod from the start, so the likelihood you possess an understanding of how the races are balanced against one another in high-level 1v1 play is extremely unlikely. If you do, you're going to have to provide better arguments than the word salads you've been serving up so far.

Devon wrote:"The crap towers require time to build and can be destroyed. The LOS doesn't work on every map plus the fact that there's delay on spawning from the towers. Rippers play a role similar to LC's flare or mines. Flares are highly effective on static targets and its instant. Mines can be dropped then triggered instantly also for a 50% slow 15 seconds, even worse if you don't have detectors around. So calling rippers in isn't even close to such globals mentioned."

Okay. Definitely trolling then.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/vengeance-of-the-blood-ravens

this mod might be better for your particular balance needs.

@Oddnerd,

Yea you're right, I'm just a noob that's been spoiled by when Caeltos was around. I mean what do I know? Does anyone remember when Termagants crippling psn was double the range and increased damage taken? When they were a huge plus versus terminators.

@Torpid

Yea trolling for sure! I guess I will never understand how love blinds one, especially when you love a single faction so much!

@Riku

I sense that there's some negativity in your replies. I hope you don't take things personal. I have nothing against you or anyone on this forum for that matter.

By this point, it looks like you're choosing not to listen to the opposing arguments, but I will try anyway.

Firstly, your comparison between Eldar infantry and Tyranid infantry is a very bad basis. Dire Avengers and Banshees are significantly more expensive to buy and maintain than their Tyranid counterparts, and fill very different roles. Dire Avengers obviously outshoots Termagaunts one on one, as Banshees obviously crush Hormagaunts in a solo fight. The thing is, if you're fighting that way, you're doing it wrong. Your Hormagaunts are fragile, but very fast and come with a melee leap to close the gap. These two things make them excellent at killing enemy ranged units since they can't run away, and even while kiting will take extra damage from those leaps (which also make them great retreat killers, I might add!). Meanwhile, Termas get one of the best melee-control abilities around in the form of Crippling Poison which completely bypasses things like suppression resistance/immunity, knockback immunity, and so on. To put it simply, your ranged units are designed to counter melee, and your melee units are designed to counter ranged. This can change once you get their respective synapse, allowing them to function more like traditional melee/ranged superiority units, but in T1 you have to use them the way they're designed to be used.

Secondly, your point about Tyranid bleed is mistaken. Bleed doesn't exclusively refer to losing models. Obviously that's a big part of it, but it refers to the amount of economic damage that you take when losing those models. For example, Eldar can bleed quite a bit with just a few mistakes that cost them a handful of models. Same with SM, though they have more durability to offset it. Meanwhile, IG can lose dozens of men and hardly bleed at all thanks to cheap reinforcement costs and reinforcing 2-3 at a time. Tyranid eco is notorious for being one of the strongest in the game since they tend to have lower reinforcement costs on their gaunts/gants supported by units that are either hard to bleed (Warriors, Raveners when used well, etc.) or single entities that don't bleed unless you lose them entirely. Despite being almost the cost of a super-unit, Carnifexes have been notorious in the past for coming out in multiples, thanks to being backed up by the Tyranid eco.

As for Endless Swarm, it isn't meant to be a call-in that restocks your core army. It's designed to add a sudden burst of power during a vital push that can be dropped on the enemy's back lines and overwhelm them (D-Cannons and other arty get devastated by this) or to drop in emergency capping units that can swarm the map and grab VPs while your main army exchanges blows with the enemy.

You also seem to be underestimating Capillary Towers. In addition to providing sight and dropping in Rippers/Spore Mines, they also buff nearby Tyranids. That speed boost can make a huge difference in combat, and the exp they give when destroyed is pretty minimal so long as you place them strategically. The 'Nids are already a quick faction, and those things make them even quicker. And unlike the Commissar Flare and other globals you mentioned, Rippers don't have a timed lifespan. You can buy them prior to an engagement and then hit the enemy where it hurts. In addition to gumming up vehicles, they make excellent setup counters.

To reply to your later question, I do remember when Crippling Poison was better. I also remember when Capillary Towers passively generated Red and when Gaunts/Gants had Warrior and Venom Brood squad leaders. Not every idea is a good one, and some need to be reverted for the sake of balance.

Getting back to your original point about cost-reduction... yes. Reducing their rec cost might, in fact, end up being game-breaking. A while back, there was a big discussion about increasing the damage of the Guardsmen Sarge's chainsword to 10 dps, which was shot down because of the major balancing issues it may cause. On it's own, it looked harmless until you considered all the implications therein, such as the number of Guardsmen units fielded, how that would effect melee viability against them, etc. Small changes have big impacts, and have to be carefully thought out from all perspectives. You've been comparing things in a vacuum, which is never going to win you favor from the people trying to balance the mod.

Right now, from what you've been saying, it sounds a lot more like a familiarity thing than a balance one. You might want to check out some high level replays of Tyranid players and watch how they do things if you're looking to improve. If not, I would suggest you try to take the advice you've been given so far. These people have been balancing the mod for a long time. They know what they're talking about (for the most part ).

You people keep talking about prices and dps, while nobody takes into consideration the synapse effect. Synapse makes up for a lot of this fairytale that is cost-ineffectiveness/higher than standard

Suppose Devon is right (which you are not) and Nids were to receive cost buffs all over the roster. Not only would it still be hard to kill synapse blobs but you would make it that much easier to recover from gaunt/gant bleed, making it that much easier to smooth-sail right into the Fex spam/Swarmlord Ezpz.

You are not looking at all the angles here.

@boss: Terms/Gaunts only have higher upkeep per pop but not per squad. They cost as much as any starting squad. Just throwing that out there.

The T3 calldown is generally used as a reinforce global and/or when you need extra gaunt and gants for capping etc in T3. That being said it is a pretty niche global atm.

Nids are generally regarded as a very strong and dominating in T1 as it is so I don't see any reason fmto buff that even further. Nid AV is another matter that could probably use some work.

Gaunts and gants are fine as they are now imho. Their upkeep per pop is on the higher side but their pop cost is on the other hand is low and they have great damage per pop especially with synapses. They have high speed and capillary towers to buff that even further. I honestly don't see much of a problem with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10F9EAlsktk

Not sure if this is a good example of Tyranid eco OP but look at 23:38.

@Kvn

Would you recommend some good Tyranid players and replays? And thank for you a well thought out post.

Devon wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10F9EAlsktk

Not sure if this is a good example of Tyranid eco OP but look at 23:38.

Considering that Torpid's army was significantly larger than Noisy's, packing multiple synapse creatures as well as a Carnifex, and Noisy had the better end of map control (three rec points fully matured, after just losing a fourth, to Torpid's two) that looks more like it was just the natural progression of the game. At least it does to my eyes.

Devon wrote:@Kvn

Would you recommend some good Tyranid players and replays? And thank for you a well thought out post.

I don't follow the competitive scene as much as I used to, so I can't name any dedicated Tyranid pros off the top of my head, but for casts, Indrid is the big name who is still regularly putting out videos at https://www.youtube.com/user/dowreplaysnet/videos. Besides him, Rostam also casts a little bit of everything from DoW2 Elite, to Retail, to DoW1 at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2l9kb ... _polymer=1. Both are good choices.

How can you not know of the greatest nid Player boss?

No tyranids pros https://dawnofwar.info/esl/player/11827545

Sorry boss I know you're a good player, just that I didn't think you played Tyranids recently. Don't take it personally!

Your micro A+

@Kvn

Sorry I wasn't exactly clear. Noisy has about 10 more pop than Torpid and there's a huge difference in req income. Also add +30 onto Torpid's income should be able to compare then. 235 vs 185.

why you need tyranid pros when you have boss being the pro at everything?

boss wrote:No tyranids pros https://dawnofwar.info/esl/player/11827545

Nothing personal man, I'm just a scrub. A blind, foolish, scrub.

Devon wrote:Sorry I wasn't exactly clear. Noisy has about 10 more pop than Torpid and there's a huge difference in req income. Also add +30 onto Torpid's income should be able to compare then. 235 vs 185.

When you account for the size of his army relative to his population, and the fact that he has quite a few units such as Warriors/Carnifex/Venom/etc. which have higher upkeep on the field, he has a much larger force. He's pretty much got a full roster stocked and on the field. The Eldar meanwhile, were looking fairly thin. Tyranids in general have lower pop values than other factions, so if you're basing it on that alone, your perspective will be skewed.

Every rec point matters, and when you compare it without that extra point, the amount of extra upkeep the Tyranids are paying isn't that much given the army size difference.

Again, let’s also not forget the amount of hp boni granted by the venom brood and warrior brood. Imagine if you throw in improved synapse in there as well, with nest support...and now consider that Nids share their synapses in teamgames, meaning you do benefit from somebody else’s purchase. How awesome is that?


That’s just from Warriors.


That’s Venom Brood.

Yes, There's many forms of Synapses that are used by Tyranids and correct me if I'm wrong, lesser Tyranids are more responsive under synapse. Also the tooltips for venom brood range synapse seems a little bit different in game. In addition, I believe Fex takes less damage while under Synapses.

The basic synapse offset some of the weakness that gants (referring to both gants/gaunts). Melee gants have high model count and low melee skill compare to their early counterparts so under synapse, it helps them offset their weakness. Likewise with ranged gants, high model count and not being to able to utilize cover fully like lower model squads because of extra models. Remember when you told that csm squad to take cover but no matter how many times you order it to change its position theres always that one model sticking out? It's a lot worse for ranged gants.

Both melee and ranged synapses act sort of like a squad leader when buffing lesser Tyranids. The fact that warriors aren't always around lesser gants, the numbers on paper seem to be a bit high in terms of the buffs they provide. In terms of gameplay, melee and ranged synapses feel like they are a must every time. In fact, I'd argue below that they fall behind compare to other factions.

For the sake of argument of that Tyranids I'm going to use this game between Noisy and Torpid once again. There's no doubt that they are both great players like boss himself (I didn't forget you this time, Kappa).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10F9EAlsktk

After watching the video, here's what I noticed. In tier 1 play, Torpid had one extra squad than Noisy but he had entire resources field most of T1 (equal power). How can Noisy be able to afford 2 squads just like Torpid? Both cost about the same in terms of req. 2 spiders vs Ravs and venom brood with synapse upgrade. Is this kind of upkeep fair? Clearly Torpid early map control in T1.

In tier 2 game play, two squads of WS vs 2 ranged gants + ravs. Noisy was able to bleed those gants time after time with no major loss and his T2 rav choice was a good one as other Tyranids units such as zoan/TG/Genes wouldn't do so well vs Noisy army composition. If you watch the whole tier 2 game play, there's no major mistakes with the exception of losing AG warriors via not retreating them and Noisy not paying attention to FP. Other than that, this is the perfect version why Tyranids scale is bad vs other factions. Ranged gants bleed so much vs those spiders and they didn't kill much in return.

Put other factions in the same position of vs two squads of WS. IG clearly has no trouble as they are super cheap to replace as long as you buy two squad leaders. Shoota boyz would easily outgun two WS. SM can drop in a second tacs for 300 req/ 100 red, with or without stern upgrade they will win. Eldar with fully upgraded DA can do well vs WS (cheaper than Torpid's ranged army by quite a bit). Non melee CSMs can do well (with or without inferno bolters). All these 5 factions have tier 1 ranged units that perform well in tier 2, in this case vs WS but not Tyranids. Why? High model count, cannot utilize cover like low model squads and ranged synapses are a must (you won't always have it).

You can easily test squads mentioned in the previous paragraph, one to one ratio WS will lose, if not it costs WS more to stay in the fight. If all these tier 1 units outgun and counter WS, what do you think they can do vs ranged gants? Similar result. Bleed heavily and high upkeep.

PS this video is a great example of Eldar can stun and disable vehicles/Fex while Tyranids didn't have a slow. Rippers would get kited and ripped (the irony) apart by banshees. If it was a call in, it would have easier time to connect to the vehicle.

Put other factions in the same position of vs two squads of WS

...and they all will bleed like hell.

To be fair pretty much every race would have dealt with that better than nids can, but that's because double WS is literally the go-to eldar counter to nids on maps like this. Doesn't help of course that he was playing the WL who is the best hero vs nids. Or that the map was G2G which favours eldar and is notoriously bad for nids since there are so many buildings, the gens are too safe and the engagement areas tend to be narrow and not good for flanks...

Vs any other race Noisy would have got shurikens in T1 and gone for a totally different T2.

WS + warlock gate heals on that map are just downright broken in and of themselves nevermind the fact that nids suck vs WS anyway...

They some reasons why they were a huge rec income diffence one endless swarm add 2 gaunts per unit back then and since all were alive that's 6 more so almost another unit with higher than stranded upkeep
so instead of paying 6x2.55 = 15.3 he paying 6x3.825=22.95
oh and top of that you still have 24 more gaunts paying more upkeep than they should be as well
8 x 2.55=20.4 8 pop 8 x 3.825=30.6
now time that by 3 and you see what I mean
it why you often see tyranids float so much power but no rec to use it on unless they lose there starting gaunts even tho they are basic units

@torpid if you didn't nerf ravs so much then tyranids would have a counter to ws that was the only real way to deal with them

Endless swarm didn't add upkeep when that game was played. The extra models were "free".

Oddnerd wrote:Like Torpid said, the nid eco is so powerful in the early game because of how little population it requires.

Take the standard 1 hormagaunt and 2 termagant opening. You can buy fairly inexpensive upgrades that make them both strong enough to compete with other races' T1 units and neither upgrade increases their pop cost (unlike sargeant upgrades for other races). This brings you to 24 population. This means that if your build order is to upgrade the three gaunts/gants before getting any T1.5 units, you are spending that whole time completely upkeep free.

All it takes is 1 or 2 pieces of wargear from most heroes to completely shut down such a light Tyranid T1. Force commander with stormshield for example and you'll be completely outclassed.


Anyway pro tip for OP: Build 2 gens max as Nids. Never build three gens. Tyranids do not have power sinks and they have massive req bleed. You are better off building 1-2 gens and focus on capping power points for +5 power than you are investing requisition into power generation. (Either from generators or nodes)

Dark Riku wrote:

Devon wrote:@Riku

Nid AV is a real problem if you give them a slow again. We don't want Nids to be completely braindead to play with.

As opposed to every other race, which have Lascannons that slow units down or Haywire/melta bombs that completely immobilize vehicles for several seconds. Not to mention that venom broods don't have shit on Melta Stormtroopers or Fire Dragons. (They also are synapse bombs so they're a big juicy target)

Nid AV has been shit ever since Zoanthrope was changed to an anti-infantry unit. To the point where every Nid unit under the sun has been given heavy melee to try and compensate (Lictors, Genestealers) and they still get destroyed by vehicles.

Oh really?

https://dawnofwar.info/esl/stats

I was going to make a wall of text but nobody reads those ,will just be ignored and I decided it's really not worth the time investment.

So here goes in short.
Synapse is a big thing. So are the towers. Use them properly. (Like don't run in your synapse creatures first)
Tyranids T1 is amazing. Pretty much everything has above average speed. I'm pretty sure that's self explanatory...
Not to mention their redic starting DPS they have now in Elite. Don't even need the upgrades any more.
Tyranids anti-infantry is amazing. They need 1 "weakness". Let them have it. I still don't see how their AV is in any way shape or form bad though.
Stop with this bullshit about "bad" Nid eco. Since when is having an overabundance of a resource a bad thing?? Fex trains are also a real thing.

TL;DR: Nids Stronk, L2P.

Devon wrote:Yes, There's many forms of Synapses that are used by Tyranids and correct me if I'm wrong, lesser Tyranids are more responsive under synapse.

They are not.

Nerf nids. Thank-you, that is all.