Dawn of War Codex

Then tell me please why EACH commander of the Chaos race can get ranged/melee terminators? While the SM commanders can only get ranged terminators and only one of them can get melee terminators? If we are not going to break the concept of the SM commanders then there is something to do with the Chaos heroes' global abilities which summon different terminators (you upgade them later more specifically).

So there seems to be a good reason for the apo to not have access to a trololol melee heavyweight in t3 that can benefit from angels of death, his healing aura and so on.

Do you really think the Apo's healing aura matters in t3? To summon terminators you have to spend 350 red. You will be lucky to use the Angels of Death (200 red) after spending 350 red. However his heal grows with levels but still do you really think that Assault Terminators will be broken under support of the Apo? And that is ok to have Assault Terminators for already very tanky and fearsome commander who can buff them greatly as well? That seems illogical for me.

Khorne terminators for the Chaos Lord, Nurgle terminators for the Plague Champion, Tzeentch terminators for the Sorcerer? That would bring diversity as well. What about to discuss this matter in another thread?

Chaos units are more independent than SM ones. That is to say, that the synergy between units is less for Chaos. The ways Chaos terminators can be supported is more limited than SM ones. Having access to Assault terminators with Mark Target? That's terrifying. Imagining Armor of the Apothecarian with Assault Terminators? Makes banshees with channeling runes some child's play.

Again, I reiterate. Chaos terminators cannot be as well supported with SM ones. Chaos getting all terminators is ok.

Why battle cry + the battle standart + For the Emperor and hard hitting commander along side terminators doesn't terrify you? And I didn't suggest to give assault terminators to the Techmarine.

Sub_Zero wrote:Why battle cry + the battle standart + For the Emperor and hard hitting commander along side terminators doesn't terrify you? And I didn't suggest to give assault terminators to the Techmarine.

I think the main point that they are trying to make is that the other two SM commanders have incredible abilities that would synergize a bit too well with assault termies.

healing/mark target assault terminators would be pretty nuts, while the FC can only buff their damage.

BUY SOME VANGUARDS. They are basically flying mini ass terms that can retreat and can jump twice instead of once!

Vans are 625/115.

Just throwing it out there, terminators are cheaper than them.

And yet vans performs way worse than any t3 units, nobs,council, etc.... or actually, they perform worse than any T3 unit, for example look at the kaserkins, they literally destroy everything for 400/40.

Some of you don't seem to understand the concept ... of a concept.
It is save to assume that the developers did have a concept in mind when designing the factions and options each commander has. So basically the FC was designed from the start to have access to assault terminators late game. The apo was not.
So there seems to be a good reason for the apo to not have access to a trololol melee heavyweight in t3 that can benefit from angels of death, his healing aura and so on.

Also design-wise there is a nice diversity in playstyle for each commander even for the same race. Please approve that you have this.

Was chaos intended to have LC termies that are cheaper than sm ones? Were they intended to have an anti everything weapon with splash damage?

Chaos units are more independent than SM ones. That is to say, that the synergy between units is less for Chaos. The ways Chaos terminators can be supported is more limited than SM ones

Extremely wrong, a cl fitted for cc vs a fc fitted for damage buffing in a brawl with LC termies will always see the CL win no matter what, and I'd say the pc/sorc can support them even more.

Having access to Assault terminators with Mark Target? That's terrifying. Imagining Armor of the Apothecarian with Assault Terminators? Makes banshees with channeling runes some child's play.

but then again GK termies with purge (30% damage debuff) & infiltration (25%+ damage buff) are considered fine, so perhaps there is no real problem then.

I think the main point that they are trying to make is that the other two SM commanders have incredible abilities that would synergize a bit too well with assault termies.

Elaborate instead of saying this since it's completely untrue, all the worships synergize way better than anything SM has with their termies, cl just makes impossible for any t3 elite melee unit to beat his lc termies, the PC can provide some healing, although low but mostly CC with the plague fist for both ranged and melee engagments and for both autocannon/lc termies, the sorc...well he is a better libby that starts off in T1 and has an amazing global which will let you to NEVER ever lose your termies.

@Ace of Swords

I think that the community is a bit nervous to have angels of death assault terminators and mark target assault terminators running around killing shit like no tomorrow.

I agree that Chaos have more support for their terminators than most people think.
Sorc has really good mobility with sigil of the rift and his global, chaos lord is basically an extra LC chaos termie with better single target damage, and plague champion has nice healing.

I also agree that vanguard veterans suck. My Lictor alpha with lone hunter and feeder tendrils and adrenal glands (around level 5) completely demolished a level one vanguard squad. Took out two models, including the sergeant, and they retreated. I was using stalk (for the extra damage) but any other elite melee unit in T3 would have killed the LA easily (seer council with chain knockback, nobz with their hammers, any terminator variant, etc).

I think that the community is a bit nervous to have angels of death assault terminators and mark target assault terminators running around killing shit like no tomorrow

Mark target can be avoided and angels of death do cost 200 red. See no problem here.

And yet vans performs way worse than any t3 units, nobs,council, etc.... or actually, they perform worse than any T3 unit, for example look at the kaserkins, they literally destroy everything for 400/40.

Kasrkin

I was not under the impression that Kasrkin destroyed things in close quarters. And for your information, you're wrong on several occasions about the price on said units, which just goes to show how little you actually know about them.

And Terminators are 650/100 + the red cost. With a much higher upkeep compared to regular Vanguards.

How you percieve that as "cheaper" is beyond me.

Was chaos intended to have LC termies that are cheaper than sm ones? Were they intended to have an anti everything weapon with splash damage?

Considering that the Chaos Terminators are more fragile then their regular Terminator counterparts, yes. There's not much more else to add.

If you called in terminators you aren't going to use angels of death anytime soon, I don't want to insult anybody, but please think before posting.

Mark target is a problem in general, and it just shouldn't be 50% damage increase, the only the only reason I think it shouldn't be nerfed right now now is because there are several buffs alike it which do need fixing, and if possible they should come all together.

chaos lord is basically an extra LC chaos termie

Not just that, it's a wandering debuff machine aswell as it can stun the opponent termies for a while, all in all every support the FC brings is nullified, aswell as the fact that his tic worship provides for fast ways to disengage and go back to the base to heal up.

And yet vans performs way worse than any t3 units, nobs,council, etc.... or actually, they perform worse than any T3 unit, for example look at the kaserkins, they literally destroy everything for 400/40.

Kasrkin

I was not under the impression that Kasrkin destroyed things in close quarters.

Again, strawman, it's just impossible to have a discussion with you is it?

And for your information, you're wrong on several occasions about the price on said units, which just goes to show how little you actually know about them.

Elaborate.

Asm are 450/50 + sarge 75/25 + vanguard 100/30 If math hasn't changed it's a total 625/105, yeah I was indeed wrong on 10 power and yes, SM termies cost 650 req, but chaos ones cost 550, and gk ones have no red cost and also retain ranged weapon with full melee capacity.

And Terminators are 650/100 + the red cost. With a much higher upkeep compared to regular Vanguards.

How you percieve that as "cheaper" is beyond me.

A difference on 25 req considering their actual impact and all that chain reaction in causes makes termies cheaper to me, I guess it's just a wrong way to express my thinking.

Was chaos intended to have LC termies that are cheaper than sm ones? Were they intended to have an anti everything weapon with splash damage?

Considering that the Chaos Terminators are more fragile then their regular Terminator counterparts, yes. There's not much more else to add.

[/quote]

Wait wait wait, standard termies are more fragile yes, but LC ones still cost less than assault termies and are exactly the same, aside from that, both the LC and autocannon termies are cheaper to reinforce than the SM counterpart, and to add another one, the autocannon is so effective that you don't need to reinforce your whole squad you can just keep that autocannon model and it will absolutely still destroy infantry and maintain the substained damage against vehicles, sure now the assault cannon is the same, the problem is that it's concentrated on a single unit and it's effectivness in forcing off your opponent is very limited, especially on high counter low hp squads.

Then there is the flamer, keeping only the model with the flamer is pure suicide not just because it's only a close range model, but also because you won't have any long range inspire, then we have the missile launcher, a good weapon against vehicles and for distruption, but on it's own it doesn't add anything and is very expensive, meaning that you will need to keep you squad 3/3.

All what Ace is saying is absolute truth. Glad that someone shares my vision of the situation. How can these facts be denied?

I would have to agree too. I think loyalist termies are in a pretty bad spot at the moment for reasons already alluded to in this thread.

- Chaos Terminators have less health in vanilla state.
- Chaos have less ways to support Chaos Terminators (except if you play the Chaos Sorcerer)
- The Chaos Terminators Autocannon do 32.67 dps with a 3 splash.
- Pimp out the Chaos Lord with his tanky build isn't cheap (430 req 100 energy)
- It would be lulzy play against Assault Terminators with/out LC being healed 108(36 per member)/90 hp (30 per member) per second by the Apo with Advanced Healing. Or with Mark Target support meanwhile the Techmarine is owning with his overcharged plasma gun. Or if the match elongates with a Land Raider supporting the Terminators being supported by the Techmarine. (not very common, but..)
- Yes, they are cheaper than LC Assault Terminators, but as a said, except if the Chaos player is a Chaos Sorcerer, they are going to have less support. Is much more safer to keep them in vanilla (except if you really need the power_melee damage)

Sub_Zero wrote:All what Ace is saying is absolute truth. Glad that someone shares my vision of the situation. How can these facts be denied?

What facts? I wasn't under the impressions that opinions = fact

Again, strawman, it's just impossible to have a discussion with you is it?

No, I'll glady have a discussion about something. But when you continously bring up irrelevant unit comparisons for the sake of trying to win an arguement, it really get's frustrating. I've expressed and made myself clear about this several times, yet you won't abide by that, and you expect me to really to care?

See, I care more about post that are more along the lines of this;

- Concrete and perspective analysis of the Vanguard design & implementation
- Reasoning why Vanguards are failing to perform for their cost & effiency WITHIN the Space Marine army composition and "meta"
- Video/Replays both featuring Vanguards useage. You can get a better sense from where people are coming from, and which you can either acknowledge that the player made outside-mistakes that made them falter in performance. Not neccasarily the units performance being bad.

What I don't care about

- Why can't my Vanguards beat Seer Council/Nob/Terminators?
- Why get Vanguards when I can get Terminators?

For the sake of it, I'll let people think about why I don't give two squats about the two I listed above. It's probably more to it, but I don't feel making a bigger thing out of it.

Vanguards, much alike Sternguards and misc. other units for other factions, are meant to be situational. Even Terminators are meant to be abit of a situational purchase. I've seen games when they win, and I've witnessed when they were a dreadful purchase. That's a better striking balance compared to "Well I'll just get Terminators and I'll be a breeze from here on, since they're the better unit out of all the options I've got". The purchases are meant to be strategical, and preference.

Now, I think it's safe to say, Vanguards don't see much use. You get one bad game with it, and then you don't ever get them again. Eventho maybe it all actually just boiled down to mistakes, and they actually have a much better effiency then they get credited for.

This all gets very problematic when you want to balance things, because things can get messy, and they can get messy fast. I see talk about them, yet I rarely see even people get them in the first place when I'm either playing games, or watching games. So that strikes me more of an odd experience of "I had a bad game with them, so I'm not going to even try to make them work" - which is both bad feedback for me, which results in bad balance & gameplay for everyone else.

I need more constructive, yet keeping it simple to the overall army compositions and what you're going up against with them to get a better sense of an idea on where things are problematic. For an example, if Terms/Vanguards are struggling to get through frontlines, you know there's a problem along the lines of CC (Player mistakes might be an issue here) or if they just don't perform well enough in general combat effiency.

So the direction and what needs adjusting is important. Are they faltering due to CC, or faltering due to general combat effiency values. There are more factors, but those are some basic guidelines that I want to look for when I want to adjust something. The past buffs for say, Vanguards are more straight up combat-effiency + sustain effiency. Prolonging the capability to gain experience, and level up with them. Since they have a better pay-off to some degree with the levels they get. (It's 10% compared to previous 15%) but the overall benefits are roughly still the same however with the flat-hp boost they got as well. The big bonus is the health regeneration, which makes small-arms fire really pathetic against them.

Elaborate.

You're wrong on the Kaskrin cost as well. By quite abit as well. They're 450/45. You mentioned their pricing to be ~400/40 two times, and both times - you were wrong. All you have to do, if you're uncertain about the price of a unit, is to boot the game and check it out.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:- Chaos Terminators have less health in vanilla state.
- Chaos have less ways to support Chaos Terminators (except if you play the Chaos Sorcerer)
- The Chaos Terminators Autocannon do 32.67 dps with a 3 splash.
- Pimp out the Chaos Lord with his tanky build isn't cheap (430 req 100 energy)
- It would be lulzy play against Assault Terminators with/out LC being healed 108(36 per member)/90 hp (30 per member) per second by the Apo with Advanced Healing. Or with Mark Target support meanwhile the Techmarine is owning with his overcharged plasma gun. Or if the match elongates with a Land Raider supporting the Terminators being supported by the Techmarine. (not very common, but..)
- Yes, they are cheaper than LC Assault Terminators, but as a said, except if the Chaos player is a Chaos Sorcerer, they are going to have less support. Is much more safer to keep them in vanilla (except if you really need the power_melee damage)

1. Yeah sure, because khorne worship is not good at all or the healing or the invisbility from the sorc. - Also just compare the investment one would have to make in order to support the terminators, on the one side u have ur tics (which are fairly cheap) on the other hand a kinda useless sub commander that wont even support the terminators right out of the gate, meaning that you still have to get some upgrades for him. And seriously I'd rather get a dread instead of a meh subcommander. => Your argument is invalid

2. Autocannons are way better because they provide decent damage against all armor types and we all know that come t3 most infantry units are either shi or hi and t3 also means lots and lots of vehicles, meaning the autocannon is better at dealing damage against most of the t3 units.

3. - Pimp out the FC with his tanky build isn't cheap (400 req 100 energy [fist 200 + 50, aritificer 100 + 25, iron halo 100 + 25) - so yeah your point being that its expensive to upgrade a hero? Its not like that this is something only chaos has going for it. => This isn't even an argument at all.

4. Chaos Terminators have less health in vanilla state. - sure hence the lightning claw chaos terminators are also not as expensive...oh wait they have EXACTLY the SAME amount of HEALTH as sm lc terminators and to make it even worse they have a melee skill of 70. Would u care to tell me why this is justified?

Conclusion:

SM terminators are just shitty compared to the chaos counterparts, which offer better all around damage due to the autocannon, that are cheaper to reinforce, are easier to support (worship [either healing, being invisible or getting a speed boost], teleport and all the other sorc shenanigans) even have a higher melee skill and are available for every chaos hero.

Meaning either buff SM terminators accordingly, meaning damage buff or make them faster (because u know chaos terminator armor is old and rusty, while sm terminator armor is all shiny and new, hence it works better...S.T.O.P. laughing, right now ) or make them cost the same (reinforce wise) as chaos terminators + buff their melee skill to 70 (yeah we know it was an oversight on relics end) .

And just so u know, I also don't like the idea of giving ass termis to either the apo or the techmarine. Because, as was mentioned earlier, they were designed with the FC in mind and not with the other 2 heroes.

Wait wait wait, standard termies are more fragile yes, but LC ones still cost less than assault termies and are exactly the same, aside from that, both the LC and autocannon termies are cheaper to reinforce than the SM counterpart

At least it cannot be disputed at all. Equal performance and different cost. Yes, other his points seem more like personal opinions but they are really close to what we have in the game.

And you guys forgot to mention that Chaos Terminators can get huge benefits from the shrines. I really fail to see better support for SM Terminators compared to support for Chaos Terminators.

@Caeltos: I tried Vanguard many times, couldn't make em work. All you have is my word for it though, only coming from an Apo PoV though so you do with that as you wish.


Then what Maxypoo said ^^ Although 1 slight alteration. I don't see why the TM and Apo shouldn't be able to upgrade to LC terms.

Well as a player who plays a lot of Chaos (PC and CL) I would be inclined to say that Kayos LC Terms could be the same price as the SM ones.

Nurgle worship on Terminators though is a joke. 3,5hp/s on a 3750/4500 hp squad that tends to draw a lot of fire really doesn't matter all that much. K and T worship are entirely different stories though.

Uncle Milty wrote:Some of you don't seem to understand the concept ... of a concept.
It is save to assume that the developers did have a concept in mind when designing the factions and options each commander has. So basically the FC was designed from the start to have access to assault terminators late game. The apo was not.

I totally agree with this statement. Problem is, chaos was designed to be a straightforward powerhouse from t1 until the end of the match, since their tzeench marines are already the pinnacle of raw power with their anti all infantry very high dps, hence they really don't need termies, but they got them!

Space marines were designed for adaptability and to endure the tiers with their basic units. Basically, you get what you get in t1 and upgrade the crap out of it instead of add to it until t3 comes and termies take it from there. The SM roster got vanguards and sternguards to help with this, problem is, 50% of the time they hurt more than they help

Basically, Chaos are the only race that have overstacked squads to the roof, they got 2 ultimate shooting squads (tzeentch marines, termies), 2 jump troops (raptors, blood letters), 3 dedicated melee troops (termies, khorne marines, heretics), and only them and tyranids got 2 super units as well

- Concrete and perspective analysis of the Vanguard design & implementation
- Reasoning why Vanguards are failing to perform for their cost & effiency WITHIN the Space Marine army composition and "meta"
- Video/Replays both featuring Vanguards useage. You can get a better sense from where people are coming from, and which you can either acknowledge that the player made outside-mistakes that made them falter in performance. Not neccasarily the units performance being bad.

I can agree with the rest of the post kinda, and sorry for this off topic, but im not asking vanguards to beat nobs or the SC, I ask for vanguards to be very hard to force off and to kill T1 and T2 melee squads like a T3 and very expensive squad should do.

Currently forcing off vanguards is as easy as forcing off ASM, or perhaps easier becuase by the time T3 arrives asm should be around level 3 if not 4 in an ideal situation, and all of the counters to asm apply to the vanguard and like I pointed out before their cost is very, VERY high for no benefits against almost every race but SM mirrors, gk, and to a smaller extent chaos.

To me, they should have way more hp, maintain a decent scaling in level and perhaps have a small inspiration buff, maybe even just a 1% damage increase/kill but on a very big radius, enough to inspire most of the sm army.

That's ridiculous. Why would SM need such a unit? They already do beat t2/t1 melee alone, providing that melee isn't lv 3 or 4, which it really ought to not be. The same with your ASM really, but if they are that high a level then don't get vans. Nobody suggested before vans were implemented that SM really ought to get a jumping power melee squad that is tougher than ASM to deal with in order to make SM viable. ASM do their job fine it seems, something even tougher, well that's an absolute nightmare if I'm honest.

They fit ibto an interesting role. More viable for certain match ups. If ur asm are lvl 3 or above theres no need to purchase them. Though if ur opponent is shift not allowibg exp and bleed and theyre still lvl 1 or 2 vanguards are extremely viable. Or if ur asm wipe aomehow u rebuy asm can up thwm right away to vanguards to make them do more dps

To further continue on that. They are a situatiobal purchase depending on whats going on just like any unit. They are not an every game kinda unit simple. U dont get a lc every game u get it when u need it. Exceptional i find if u find urself needing asm late t2 or t3 they wont have time to garner exp and this gives them that extra little ooomf

I got vanguards in one game instead of ass terms, and they REALLY wrecked face. they annihilated a KCSM squad flat out and were utterly dominating the enemy infantry army. They were completely dominating the field until LC chaos terminators showed up.

but all in all, I'm very happy with where vanguards are. with fc support with battlecry and sacred standard they really become quite a force to be reckoned with.

just my 2 noob cents

It seems the problem we have is that people not only expect vanguards to be mini assault terminators that in every way walk all over ASM, but instead they actually say SM needs it, which is my gripe. I don't see why they do, I think if vanguards had persistent leveling from ASM they would be ridiculously OP even in t3 considering their current stats. ASM are a fantastic unit, even in t3, they have never underperformed they don't need a buff and that's what making vanguard better in all ways come t3 would do, it is just a big ASM buff.

I personally don't know what the point of vanguard even is and I wish Caeltos would elaborate on this, however what I do know is that vanguard are an extremely viable purchase if you get asm post-t1, or lose you first asm squad which is something I've seen noisy do the former to great effect (bearing in mind he likes 3x scout+tac+dev t1s). Something I also do is go for a libby based t2 alongside a 3x scout build on certain maps so I can control my foe and bleed him disproportionately with nades and greater map control, and then transition into a vanguard+predator t3, because I haven't got vehicles in t2 they don't have the AV to deal with the pred and they are stuck in t2 with poor map control and a lot of bleed so they can't really counter the vanguard since vanguard wipe the floor with all t1/t2 melee.

Overall I think people need to embrace some non-asm t1s a bit more, especially as the techmarine, vanguards with the techmarine are pretty insane due to that mark target. Somebody once got KCSM after seeing my t3 ASM, but then they became vanguard and were melted painfully with techmarine support. Personally I still think ASM are one of the strongest units in this game and the last thing I want them to get is a buff, if they weren't why does every SM player get ASM in t1 90% of the time?

That Torpid Gamer wrote:It seems the problem we have is that people not only expect vanguards to be mini assault terminators that in every way walk all over ASM, but instead they actually say SM needs it, which is my gripe. I don't see why they do, I think if vanguards had persistent leveling from ASM they would be ridiculously OP even in t3 considering their current stats. ASM are a fantastic unit, even in t3, they have never underperformed they don't need a buff and that's what making vanguard better in all ways come t3 would do, it is just a big ASM buff.

I personally don't know what the point of vanguard even is and I wish Caeltos would elaborate on this, however what I do know is that vanguard are an extremely viable purchase if you get asm post-t1, or lose you first asm squad which is something I've seen noisy do the former to great effect (bearing in mind he likes 3x scout+tac+dev t1s). Something I also do is go for a libby based t2 alongside a 3x scout build on certain maps so I can control my foe and bleed him disproportionately with nades and greater map control, and then transition into a vanguard+predator t3, because I haven't got vehicles in t2 they don't have the AV to deal with the pred and they are stuck in t2 with poor map control and a lot of bleed so they can't really counter the vanguard since vanguard wipe the floor with all t1/t2 melee.

Overall I think people need to embrace some non-asm t1s a bit more, especially as the techmarine, vanguards with the techmarine are pretty insane due to that mark target. Somebody once got KCSM after seeing my t3 ASM, but then they became vanguard and were melted painfully with techmarine support. Personally I still think ASM are one of the strongest units in this game and the last thing I want them to get is a buff, if they weren't why does every SM player get ASM in t1 90% of the time?

Okay, yeah all nice and dandy but could we stop posting about Vanguard and get back to the issue at hand, namely the performance of loyal terminators compared to their chaos counterparts.

Yeah I would gladly ask about that as well.

Let's get back to the cost issue. LC chaos termies are cheaper than LC sm termies. Cost overall and amount of resources you pay to reinforce a model. And consider that LC chaos termies are better. In the next update there is no tweak concerning this matter. And I think it is unfair.

The easiest solution i can think of is to have the option on regular terminators to turn them into a melee option. Have an upgrade that costs 100 50 and they become storm shield and hammer terminatora. Once tgis upgrade has been purchaded they cannot revert to.the ranged variant

I feel like one of the big differences here is the fact that Loyalists have both dedicated assault terminators and tactical terminators. The difficulty in comparison to Chaos terminators is that Chaos terminators are similar in nature to CSM, in that they don't slightly change from bolters to plasma guns to flamer etc/etc, but make radical permanent changes from power claw melee to dedicated autocannon range.

Loyalist terminators are not permitted these kinds of radical changes. Although assault terminators can equip lightning claws to make them stronger against infantry and heavy infantry, loyalist terminators are only able to augment their performance as apposed to dedicate it.

I would be worried about all 5 terminator squads becoming too similar, but does that necessarily mean they need to have equal cost when they're damage or abilities might vary?

xerrol-nanoha wrote: [..]
I would be worried about all 5 terminator squads becoming too similar, but does that necessarily mean they need to have equal cost when they're damage or abilities might vary?

When in fact one unit is worse compared to its counterpart and if it costs more, something is just wrong then. Meaning you pay more for a unit that is ultimately not as good as its counterpart.

So yeah, either bring the damage in line or the costs.

MaxPower wrote:

xerrol-nanoha wrote: [..]
I would be worried about all 5 terminator squads becoming too similar, but does that necessarily mean they need to have equal cost when they're damage or abilities might vary?

When in fact one unit is worse compared to its counterpart and if it costs more, something is just wrong then. Meaning you pay more for a unit that is ultimately not as good as its counterpart.

So yeah, either bring the damage in line or the costs.

While I won't say there isn't a problem here, focusing only on cost/damage is a little simplistic and blunt when its better overall for all the different kinds of terminators to deal different amounts of damage in different ways.