Venerable Dread

[Orkfaeller]

Actually, it's fine how it is. In the CSM vs SM MU, if Chaos goes for MoK CSM/bloodletters, double AC tics, ven dread will rofl stomp it.

Yeah, but I think any Dread will stomp them, doesnt really need to be a Ven One in that situation. IMHO

[Kvek]

Yeah but still, it's pretty cheap (600/50/300) and is droppable.
I think it's very good, but situational

[Ace of Swords]

300 red isn't cheap, especially since you are taking in account the tm vs chaos match up, where a single khorne dred is enough to beat a ven, sure it will end in a tie if he is cl/pc but if he is sorc for 100 red he can save the chaos dred if he wants.

[Orkfaeller]

Most of the time I think "why should I pick a VenDread if I could have a regular Dread plus either Termis, Orbital Strike or a couple of global repairs instead"

I dont think the VenDread is broken or useless or anything, but considering that it comes T3 and everything its not the most attractive choice.

[Kvek]

You can use that ven dread to counter lclaws terminators, seer councils and more.
For the cost (and the fact that termies are bleh) it's great.
Drop pod is very risky,
Orbital is great but if you don't hit you waste 500red, so it's better (for me) to get that ven dread and support it with Blessing of the omnisiah.
Also the fact that it can charge (if it doesn't bug out) out of danger/to battle is awesome.
Giving it a ranged weapon is not really needed.

[Codex]

Tbh in the current game I find terminators more of a liability than an asset, usually need some kind of support via Libby or heavy support via tanks etc. In the end I find Predator more cost efficient in that regard. Tbh I always found that in retail, rushing T3 and getting a VD was more efficient than getting a Dread in T2, if you already have the red for a VD. Get a Razorback in T2 and springboard to T3, and a VD should keep the red flowing in.

Don't really have a supporting argument for this, just from my experience getting a VD out ASAP is just really efficient considering a) it's relatively easy to have enough red by T3 and b) it ONLY costs 50 power, meaning it can be dropped the moment you tech to T3, arriving only slightly later than a Dreadnought would.

[Asmon]

TM can easily overwhelm his opponent with too many vehicles and VenDread is in a very good spot atm with such a strategy in mind.

[Castle]

Gonna try to add something useful here...

All the command call-downs are situational, sure. But when it comes to units being called in they should be pretty dynamic. Especially an epic dready

As I read through here I started to think, 'no the Ven Dread does not need a ranged weapon or much of any change'. But it could be more dynamic for sure. I myself have used it rarely because it tends to be more of a liability. I like Indrid's response for the charge and cool-down adjustments, and I second the thought.

With the exception of being overrun by vehicles (usually in a 1v1 scenario does that become uber successful in my experience), I have only seen the Ven Dread truly effective in maybe twenty of the likely thousand or more games I have played in (public and ranked). Otherwise it usually just gets chased down and owned and/or kept out of the fight. +72 red and some comfort on the battlefield are nice prizes after all.

Ranged weapons would make it ridiculous and generally OP I think. The GK have the OP dready build available just fine as it is

[fok12]

GK and SM are a different faction, so when you play SM you dont have the "OP" dread of the GK. I think that the Ven Dread needs a ranged weapon because an only-melee walker in t3 will not last long, just because there are tons of AV stuff (LR Vanquisher, Preds, Las, Beamy Deffs, Super units...).

If you give it the option of some ranged upgrades, like a Multimelta or Assault cannon and their respective abilities, that would make the Ven Dread more usefull and we might see it more often. Also, if you want to counter Nobs(someone said something about that, but i dont remember ), just get a regular dread and give it DAoT, buy Thunder Hammer/Master Crafted Bolter.

If you want to keep it only melee for balance, you could add Blood Talons as an upgrade (very high power melee with splash)

[Kvek]

The vene dread already rapes everything in melee, not sure how a "damage" increase would be balanced.

[Indrid]

The Ven Dread is great, just don't expect it to do well where other melee walkers wouldn't. It's just a beefier version that you can drop in; changing an engagement instantly.

[Orkfaeller]

The vene dread already rapes everything in melee, not sure how a "damage" increase would be balanced.

Thats why he said POWER Melee, making it more effective vs Infantry / less vs other Vehicles.

_______________________________________________________________

Still think no Ranged Option makes the VenDread feel more of a liability far to quickly, needs to be Babysitted by the TechMarine.

If enemy AV gets to much the vanilla Dread can pick an AC to stay behind and support.
If tanks or Superunits/Tanks get on the field you can take a MM to atleast scare them away not to get too close.

The VenDread just has to be afraid of too many things in T3.
He looses vs Superunits, cant engage tanks and Genestealers/Nobz/(Terminators) will tear him into pieces if you dont force them to flee within the timewindow that Hammer of the Emperor(?) gives you. And that would be fine enough if not a normal Dreadnought came with the exact same ability.

Leaving the VenDread in T3 only with the only real adventage of a get-the-fuck-out-of-here charge;

because lets be serious, the VenDread NEVER wastes it to actually engage the enemy but to run from it, witch IMHO shows that the unit just doesnt really work.

As my propably favourite unit in the game I'll get a VenDread allways if it is an option and it almost never performs good enough to pull its own weight.

Like a said, I rather get a Vanilla Dread ALOT earlier and have the RED to support it with global repairs and call in DropPods.

By the time a VenDread would hit my Vanilla Dread is leveled and I can upgrade it with Dark Age of the Mechincum.

Unless Im totally Powerstarved ( doesnt really happen (to me atleast) at that point of the game ) I dont see a reason to take it over vanilla dreads + global repair.
It looses vs an unleveled Khorne Dreadnaught (that can even get teleported if supported by a Sorcerer) *seigh*

[Kvek]

Orkfaeler. I know that it would do power melee, even tho it has Heavy_Melee you usually don't want the ven dread to go after enemy vehicles, you have las cannons/melta+ML etc for that, i use the vendread for AI usually.

It maybe loses to genestealers/termies/nobs but your army has more time to force off those nobs if they engage the vendread and get emprah'd

[Codex]

It looses vs an unleveled Khorne Dreadnaught (that can even get teleported if supported by a Sorcerer) *seigh*

Yeah, but... I'm pretty sure a bloodraged KDread can beat down Avatars and GUOs 1v1. At least in retail it could. So I wouldn't use the ability to beat down a KDread as a benchmark.

Orkfaeller, you're looking at the unit wrong. A VD has multiple strengths:

Improved inspiring buff
Improved HP and damage
Reliable escape
Drop pod in

If you look at what it is countered by, it's countered by Nobz, very few melee walkers, and tanks.

The advantages of it are that it is anti-all, which means that even if you get outteched by a tank, you can melta/snare/stun the tank, and drop a VD behind it, SECURING the tank kill, causing your opponent to lose 100+ power of investment right off the bat, for a 50 power 300 red investment. Then you can head for your tank straight after, giving you a solid advantage. If you had gotten a tank instead to fight the tank, there is no guarantee that you will snipe the tank, and the game might be pretty even.

So let's look at other counters to VD:

Ranged AV=> Tie it up with other units, throw VD into the mix.

Other walkers: VD will not get beaten up in short order, at worst (at best VD smacks down most other walkers). In worst case scenario, a predator would be good in the sense that it directly counters "other walkers", but it does mean that you cannot stand your ground as well if they charge your position and try to overwhelm you, and would have to kite the predator. If the predator kites, then your army has to kite, and you have to whittle away at the walker bit by bit, which is okay but at the same time a VD would be effective in a different way. I personally find that a VD+ a snaring option like lascannon is a really great way to handle them.

Melee AV=> e.g. Nobz/ Ogryns Emperor's Wrath is great, and when you try to use a normal Dread against these units you're really counting on the supporting army to force off these big units. Thus the improved inspiring buff is a big boon here, and the VD can draw aggro and tank for the army. With a predator, you'd have to rely on your knockback from your army and then kite afterwards if they are still healthy enough to charge forward. I.e. it's pretty similar to the walker case but you can use knockback.

Anyway, the way I see it is that the advantage of the VD is it can make an early and instant impact when you arrive into T3, unlike the tank. It allows you to press for a lasting T3 advantage upon impact, and retains utility if it doesn't quite result in what you want to happen. You just need to take care of it.

[Ace of Swords]

<Whoops I tried to quote this post but hit 'Edit' instead and the original is now gone> -- Lulgrim

[Orkfaeller]

The Khorne Dread does not take down GUO and Avatars, Im almost sure about that.

Maybe in Retail they did? Dunno.

[Nurland]

Well getting the VD via drop pod is not an insignificant advantage. You skip build time and have it in battle without having to charge the line with it + the drop pod does kb and dmg is someone is not paying attention or bothering to dodge. It counts only for the one engagement but nevertheless it can pay out with a snipe on a vehicle. I've killed a few Lulblades in Retail with getting a snare on the BB and dropping a Venerable Lulnought (of course in conjuction with some other av).

[Orkfaeller]

Yes coming by DropPod is an Adventage, but an Adventage over what exactly?

Over all the other (melee) walker that have to walk? The same melee walkers that arrived the battlefield like almost 10 minutes ago in T2?^^


I reallly think the VDread is just "meh".
He is nice I guess if you are allready winning and just want to put the nail in, but otherwhise? Just take a Chaos Dread give it ANY mark you want and the VDread is going to loose against it, not exactly awed.
Cant remember a single game when I played AGAINST one and it made a difference.

( also without ranged option in T3 its freaking hard to level up )

Why would I want a VDread if I could have a vanilla Dread + a Terminator Squad? Or 3 Global Repairs?

_______________________________


The argument seems to be you can have it almost instantly as soon as you reach T3 to suprise your enemy. But it doesnt "suprise" my enemy as it does nothing a T2 unit does almost equaly good.
Terminators, or a proper Tank, or Nobz, an Avatar etc those units can catch the enemy of-guard as there is nothing like them in T2.

[Nurland]

So having a no build time TB Fex (that can be repaired and supported with repair global and sligthly higher dps) appearing in the middle of your army with full hp is not an advantage?

So it is an advantage of having to build something. Then walk it from your base to the fight. In addition to that if you see you have a chance to snipe an enemy vehicle, you can call the VD in, kill the vehicle and charge out.

Good luck walking a T2/T3 melee dread head long into an enemy army that probably at than point already has a lascannon or some other sort of heavier ranged AV and some additional, softer AV. On the other hand. If you had no vehicles in T2 the opponent might not have a solid answer for a Vdread available right away.

Kdread vs. Vdread is an even fight iirc. or at least was in retail. I think they both die if they 1v1. And while Tdread will rape Vdread from range but without anything to snare Vdread or support with a good ammount of additional damage it has no chance whatsoever.

[Lulgrim]

Seriously, this is an insignificant advantage, you think it's important?

Seriously, insignificant? You figure we can just make T2 Dreads instant drop-pod call-ins as well then, without a balance impact? Nuurgh...

It's a late game engagement changer, you don't skip T2 Dread to rush call-in a VD but rather drop it on the enemy when there's 20 VPs left and you really need to win that hassle. If I have enough for a VD I certainly won't derp-pod it right away but wait for the moment when the enemy really didn't need a super walker stomping their fire support. Maybe the moment doesn't come.

But if you purchase and use it like a normal Dread you're gonna have a bad time...

Yes coming by DropPod is an Adventage, but an Adventage over what exactly?

Over waiting for build time, waiting to walk all the way to the party, then walking at the actual enemy while being shot in the face by lascannons.

Just take a Chaos Dread give it ANY mark you want and the VDread is going to loose against it, not exactly awed.

Where exactly do you pull the Chaos Dread from, if you get a VD dropped on you? If you can't counter the VD off the bat, do you suppose your army can just chill there and have coffee with it while you build, upgrade and walk a slow vehicle to duel it? Say you're forced off, lose the VP, game ends while your Dread is still building or getting the mark, yay and high-five because it has more appealing stats?

( also without ranged option in T3 its freaking hard to level up )

VD isn't about levels IMO, could be the last engagement when you call it or w/e.

Why would I want a VDread if I could have a vanilla Dread + a Terminator Squad? Or 3 Global Repairs?

Sometimes you don't. Why should it be the #1 choice in all situations? Also, maybe because Dread + Termies cost 1100/220 and VD doesn't.

[Ace of Swords]

Seriously, insignificant? You figure we can just make T2 Dreads instant drop-pod call-ins as well then, without a balance impact? Nuurgh...

point out where i said it should be t2?

It's a late game engagement changer, you don't skip T2 Dread to rush call-in a VD but rather drop it on the enemy when there's 20 VPs left and you really need to win that hassle. If I have enough for a VD I certainly won't derp-pod it right away but wait for the moment when the enemy really didn't need a super walker stomping their fire support. Maybe the moment doesn't come.

In that stage of the game you should know that the vendred is largely useless, because there will be 2-3 or even predators/tanks on the field, and you can't use a dred to cap, there will also be lascannons,meltas,power fists,terminators,super units and whatelse on the field, a ven dred is only usable when you rush the tier.

And considering that it's UNIQUE walker to a single commander it's pretty bad as of now, but i said it earlier it's not easy to balance but the at the moment getting a walker in t3 that has no ranged oprion or no option at all to switch weapons is largely useless and becomes progresively worse has the T3 gets deeper.

Over waiting for build time, waiting to walk all the way to the party, then walking at the actual enemy while being shot in the face by lascannons.

Fact, you don't get a melee vehicle with no ranged option when such hard AV is already on the field, on the other hand a predator/LR/ranged dred is still perfectly viable and will do it's job.

So having a no build time TB Fex (that can be repaired and supported with repair global and sligthly higher dps) appearing in the middle of your army with full hp is not an advantage?

Too bad it's not a fex, beside the fact that the TB isn't that used anymore for reasons stated above and it's much more favorable to have VC/BS.

[Codex]

point out where i said it should be t2?

You missed Lulgrim's point. His point is if it's an insignificant advantage to have the ability to be dropped in anywhere, then you should be able to give it to T2 dreads and not have it affect balance. If it has an impact in T2 then it would have one in T3.

Fact, you don't get a melee vehicle with no ranged option when such hard AV is already on the field, on the other hand a predator/LR/ranged dred is still perfectly viable and will do it's job.

Ace, since when has the fact that a counter existed on the field made a unit undesirable to get? Consider the example of buying ASM against Eldar who buy Banshees first. It's not enough to just say FACT, and then present your opinion as fact.

This game has always been about positioning and unit coordination, along with ability usage. You're not telling me that I shouldn't get a vehicle against an enemy who already got one snare. In that case you can simply tie up/force off the AV.

If he's more than 2 lascannons then you might be concerned, but at the same time that seriously dents his anti-infantry capability which is good for you, and you can break through the line quickly by dropping an ASM on the face of one lascannon and a VD drop pod on the face of another.

The biggest difference between a pred and a VD is that a predator is fragile and really is better for defence, whereas a VD is durable and optimised for offence/linebreaking.

[Ace of Swords]

Ace, since when has the fact that a counter existed on the field made a unit undesirable to get? Consider the example of buying ASM against Eldar who buy Banshees first. It's not enough to just say FACT, and then present your opinion as fact.

Infantry fights are different from vehicles and their counters, Banshees counter ASM as much ASM counter Banshees, both can lose and both can win depending on positioning and abilities*, but what is gonna do a melee dred? it's gonna walk up to a lascannon? no because it takes alot of damage and gets slowed, ofc a single lascannon is not enough to stop a dred WITH or WITHOUT a charge it will still take alot of damage and get destroyed by another soft/hard AV, instead, a ranged dred is still able to fully support, without taking too much damage, and now you have to consider the fact that a ranged dred comes out in T2 and is greatly more useful trought the whole game than a late T3 Vdred will ever be, like i said, after the first encounter it becomes useless, the same happens for any melee dred that's why you quickly want to switch it to ranged after breaking the line.


*I wanted to add that infantry fights also (should) rarely finish with a dead unit (squad) since you can retreat, but a vehicle fight, especially when talking of a big and slow dred in most of the cases results in the loss of the whole unit, which is alot of damage to your unit composition and a melee dred is ALWAYS at an high risk of loss when there is a source of slow + hard av or a lascannon + soft AV.

[Codex]

Banshees counter ASM as much ASM counter Banshees, both can lose and both can win depending on positioning and abilities*

Bullshit. Melee counters ASM, ASM counters range, as a rule of thumb. Anti melee counters Banshees, and you need anti-melee capabilities to swing the fight in ASM's favour.

Consider these two scenarios:

1. To use ASM with banshees on the field, you move your shotguns up to support the ASM, and counter the banshees.

2. To use Ven Dread with a lascannon on the field, you move your ASM up to support the VD, and counter the lascannon.

Your argument is that there is a key difference between these two cases. I believe there isn't. I would concede that you have to divert some effort to finding lascannons before sending your VD in (or any vehicle for that matter), but that's just scouting, you should be doing that anyway.

*I wanted to add that infantry fights also (should) rarely finish with a dead unit (squad) since you can retreat, but a vehicle fight, especially when talking of a big and slow dred in most of the cases results in the loss of the whole unit, which is alot of damage to your unit composition and a melee dred is ALWAYS at an high risk of loss when there is a source of slow + hard av or a lascannon + soft AV.

Most of the cases? People need to learn how to do fighting withdrawals (you know, like the real army does) and not just panic retreat his whole supporting army when a fight is lost. Isolated vehicles are easy pickings and rely on the support that the infantry gives them.

The same is true of real life as it is in game: if you do a mass retreat, armies will leave behind their war materiel and retreat as quickly as possible because they are unable to hold onto it (e.g. see Dunkirk). On the other hand, you can do fighting withdrawals (note that, at least in the British army, they don't call it retreat. It's withdrawal.) and in that case you can cover the retreat path of your precious materiel.

Unless you're getting 2v1'd in a team game or it was on like 15% hp when you started running it away, there should never be a case where your Dread gets sniped off on retreat, even if you decide the engagement has gone ideally.

[Ace of Swords]

1. To use ASM with banshees on the field, you move your shotguns up to support the ASM, and counter the banshees.

there are various ways to counter shees has much there are various ways to counter ASM.

That said in a 1v1 fight where both units are at level 1 and they get the same amount of specials IF the ASM jumped and knocked over all of the banshees they will win, if they didn't jump or missed the jump the shees will win, this is the basic of why you lure asm on shuris/rangers/ranged blobs and only then run your banshees in with the scream (so that the asm models take longer to 'choose' their target and start doing damage on the shees), the same works in T2 but with more abilities, where the asm will need to land both the jump and the strike in order to take down the shees.

Most of the cases? People need to learn how to do fighting withdrawals (you know, like the real army does) and not just panic retreat his whole supporting army when a fight is lost. Isolated vehicles are easy pickings and rely on the support that the infantry gives them.

It doesn't matter this is not real life, and by that i mean that you don't instantly lose more than 60% of your forces in seconds, in real life you know hours priors that the fight is a losing battle and you have the time to make preparations, usually in this game units are retreated when they lose half or more of their numbers(in late game) and that happens in seconds when units are leveled, there are glasscannons etc, now a melee dred much likely melee terminators will be not in the front but over the enemy lines and it's just impossible to save it unless you win the fight, everytime it's a suicide mission where the only way to save it is to win, if you lose, all the slow units that cannot retreat (dreds,termies) are left behind, and how many time we saw these units go down during their fallback even when they had more than 50% of their HP? pretty much always or most of the time. A single snare and a support AV is enough to take down any retreating dred such has PM+power first or a melta bomb+ ML and so on.

[Nurland]

Too bad it's not a fex, beside the fact that the TB isn't that used anymore for reasons stated above and it's much more favorable to have VC/BS.

I am missing your point here. How exactly does this nullify the advantage gained by having a drop pod call in?

[Batpimp]

as you guys discuss this Vdred issue. Will you state if your coming from the perspective of 1v1 2v2 3v3? it seems to me in 1v1 its way better than in team games.

I agree with ace and Ork that the unit is lackluster. i almost NEVER get it unless i can rush t3 and or im winning handily. I have in almost 1k hours of gaming never had a team game decided by Vdred dropped at the right time. That is seems to me just conjecture and theory without almost any proof of application.

[Orkfaeller]

Aye, most of my arguements have been made from the perspective of a 2v2/3v3er-

- also, shameful waste of a perfectly nice Assault Cannon model.



Could we atleast give it the option to "upgrade" from the heavy flamer to a Storm Bolter so we can atleast pretend it has a ranged option?^^

[Orkfaeller]

I'm necro-ing this thread instead of makeing a new one.

Would it be possible to get the inspiration-buff of the Ven Dread on the same level as the vanilla Dark-Age-of-Technology Dread?

Because unless the wiki is wrong -

Killing enemy units inspires allies in radius 45, removing suppression, reducing received suppression by 35%, and increasing damage by 35% for 20 seconds.

Killing enemy units inspires allies in radius 45, removing suppression, reducing received suppression by 20%, and increasing damage by 20% for 20 seconds.

- does make the VenDread even less atractive over a vanilla Dread if its true :l

[Dark Riku]

- does make the VenDread even less atractive over a vanilla Dread if its true :l

How does it make the charge, lower power cost, instantly dropped into battle less attractive? ^^ I guess it could get a better inspiration though like the DAoT dreads.