Orc balance issues.

[crazyman64335]

unless you don't drive a red car

[Nurland]

Ah yeah. Had forgotten about dat zogging campaing lulwagon.

[Broodwich]

Pfft of course its red! I must say because of it I'm pressured to use the gas pedal a bit heavier than necessary

[L0thar]

Just to clarify, I don't want to see Orks neutered. They are probably my favorite race to play against.

1) Nobz

Well, when so many other players say they are fine, there must be something to it.

I still have my doubts concerning the super late game scenario, where is the possibility of facing double level 4 or so Nobz. How do you deal with that, as SM? I mean, I get the theory, knockback, suppression etc., but that's not enough, you need something to actually damage them enough to force them off. Any tips for that? SM don't have anything like dark reapers or TCSM which do insane anti-heavy armor damage. I find plasma tacts not effective enough... Pdevs have their own problems, being setups and very vulnerable, but that was so far my best bet.

Also I wonder how clawminators fare against them. I believe they beat level 1 Nobz handily, but what about level 4? Anybody got some experience?

2) Daisy

I agree with majority. I don't see it much often for some reason, but when I do, I know I'm in trouble.

3) Flash Gitz

I actually find their dps and range quite insane. I remember one game when an enemy ork got 3 squads out. They just melted stuff. Not saying they are OP, just that they shouldn't be underestimated. I wish SM has something like them (or Kasrkin) in T3, if for nothing else than to replace lost leveled squads like tacts.

[Torpid]

Just to clarify, I don't want to see Orks neutered. They are probably my favorite race to play against.

1) Nobz

Well, when so many other players say they are fine, there must be something to it.

I still have my doubts concerning the super late game scenario, where is the possibility of facing double level 4 or so Nobz. How do you deal with that, as SM? I mean, I get the theory, knockback, suppression etc., but that's not enough, you need something to actually damage them enough to force them off. Any tips for that? SM don't have anything like dark reapers or TCSM which do insane anti-heavy armor damage. I find plasma tacts not effective enough... Pdevs have their own problems, being setups and very vulnerable, but that was so far my best bet.

Also I wonder how clawminators fare against them. I believe they beat level 1 Nobz handily, but what about level 4? Anybody got some experience?

Vanguard and dreadnoughts do rather well vs nobs. I mean if they're just spamming nobs I would go for a melee dreadnought and a second ASM to turn them into vanguard. Vanguard really deal some nice damage against nobs and wtih dual ASM you get 4 sources of knockback on the nobs from that alone and that ignores shotgun blast/the stun of the emperor's fist and also with dual ASM one can be knocking over the nobs while the other ties up the weirdboy/beamy loota/tankbustas. Your hero is pretty important in dealing with nobs too. The apothecary should ideally have purification rites/power axe/stims. Rites just grants extra knockback and stimmed vans do serious work. The TM should be mark targetting those nobs and then plasma overcharging them. The FC obviously can control them with his thunderhammer alongside battlecry.

Lv4 nobs beat lightning claw termies so long as they have their hammers. However the FC can change that quite handily, yet so can a weirdboy warp vomit.

[Forestradio]

Lightning claw terminators alongside a sacred standard thunder hammer FC will destroy double nobz in team games (which I am assuming you are talking about, since double nobz are extremely rare in 1v1).

Now, when you throw in the weirdboy, things change, but once again that's a problem with the weirdboy (master of all roles) and not with nobz.

[Toilailee]

Wow. Such thread. Much troll. Wow.

The consensus in the elite mod meta is that generally orks ('K', not 'C') are pretty OP, much like nids

The consensus in your mind.

I'd say sluggas are the OP ones rather than stormboyz. Stormboyz cost 40/4 per model to reinforce, which is quite a high price for a 120(?) hp model. Where was sluggas are just way too damn good for their price

T1 sluggas are joke in comparison to t1 shees and tics.

overall cost-efficiency of slugga and shoota boyz, everything considered from reinforcement to upgrades.

Times two? lol

Daisy, Flash Gitz and Kommandos are not game changers?
Especially Daisy! This is new to me :p

Yes they are support units that easily lose in 1v1 to many T1 units. They cannot be the backbone of any army, they only perform well when supporting one.



Can you people just stop having so many opinions. You don't deserve one when you're biased and/or don't know what you're talking about.

[MaxPower]

Can you people just stop having so many opinions. You don't deserve one when you're biased and/or don't know what you're talking about.

Says the one that only ever gets a battlewagon and uses the deff rolla for maximum trololol...so yeah, how about you follow your own advise?

[Toilailee]

Can you people just stop having so many opinions. You don't deserve one when you're biased and/or don't know what you're talking about.

Says the one that only ever gets a battlewagon and uses the deff rolla for maximum trololol...so yeah, how about you follow your own advise?

I'm also the only 1 to ever make a thread about deff rolla, explaining why it's op and asking for nerfs.

Here's the last 2 games I played with you:

g1 on your map. I built 3 mek turrets and lost 1 shoota&slugga in t1 and went to t2 with only 1 shoota and loota. Only picked up stikks in t2 and went straight for wagon (one of those cases were you complain about me fast teching). Still you completely ignored the fact that I was only able to fast tech bacause I held a 3rd power farm for the entirity of the match with practically no army, until a random late game banewolf wiped it when I was alredy buying a wagon.

g2 on calderis in Indrids' lobby. I went 3 fucking sluggas and 3 shootas in t1 vs you in my lane. But like a typical 1 trick pony you refuse to adapt at all or even acknowledge your opponent's bo and go with your usual 1 scout 1 tac 1 asm, shotties, sarge T2, which is why you were easily bashed in T1.
In T2 I got 2 fucking deff dreads and your response to this was the usual tac missile and asm melta bomb when I have 4 fucking repair squads, and thus you were easily bashed and again.

Max if you only know one way to play this game, refuse to even try to adapt and are entirely blind to everything else that happens in the game but the end result of you losing, then just stop crying and pick another game to play.

Also BW only works to it's maxinum trololo effect when you out tech your opponents by a mile or so. In Indrids' last lobby when Caeltos was playing on the remake of that 1 ice map, I got total of 3 wagons in one game but managed to do very little with them because we weren't alredy ahead and they had an abundance of av.

[MaxPower]

My usual bo doesnt involve the sarge in t2, just saying. Also insta killing retreating units, which is still possible even if you didnt outtech your enemy, is outright op.

Also why should I pick another game, I still like this game. Hence I still create new maps for this mod and play it.

And this game 1 on my map, you still managed to wipe myrdals retreating IG units. Btw. I was just casting/observing that game, so yeah, really like your selective memory.

Wanna check that game its up on my youtube/twitch channel...

It's the second game from this stream

[Arbit]

Toil, what's your opinion on the weirdboy? Nerfs y/n?

[Bahamut]

I'd say sluggas are the OP ones rather than stormboyz. Stormboyz cost 40/4 per model to reinforce, which is quite a high price for a 120(?) hp model. Where was sluggas are just way too damn good for their price

T1 sluggas are joke in comparison to t1 shees and tics.

overall cost-efficiency of slugga and shoota boyz, everything considered from reinforcement to upgrades.

Times two? lol

Think about it, MRT rules state that whoever uses burn da house on gens gets insta kicked out of the tourny so right of the bat Caeltos needs to nerf burn da house, and that translate to sluggas need a nerf

Now, 65/15 for a 15% increase in hp to the whole squad (including the 350hp nob) and 11.x flame dps and 2 power melee weapons of 25 dps each. Same as the nob, 75/25 for a 350hp dude with 60ish dps that also comes with a 20% hp buff to the whole squad (including himself) plus swamp 'em... 1282 hp has a lvl 1 slugga squad in t2.

Anyway, i dont think sluggas need a MAJOR nerf, but they do need some nerfs

[Vapor]

Isn't burn dat house working on nodes unintended? More of an oversight than a balance issue

[Toilailee]

My usual bo doesnt involve the sarge in t2, just saying.

? I didn't say so either.

And this game 1 on my map, you still managed to wipe myrdals retreating IG units. Btw. I was just casting/observing that game, so yeah, really like your selective memory.

Well you were bitching so much one would assume you were in the game yourself. Doesn't change the things I mentioned about the game; I was fucking around in t1 and the other team let us have a 3rd gen farm for no reason what so ever which correlated directly the with fast BW.

Yes deff rolla is op I have never claimed it wasn't. But plenty of shit can wipe units outright in T3 and BW is somewhat like deff dread in that regard it only overperforms when it has free rain over the field. If you are prepared for it and got your shit together you can deal with it.

Toil, what's your opinion on the weirdboy? Nerfs y/n?

Tbh I rarely see weirdboy and hardly ever use him anymore. If anything I think the vomit is still a tad too good, but other than that hes mostly fine from what I remember. imo

Now, 65/15 for a 15% increase in hp to the whole squad (including the 350hp nob) and 11.x flame dps and 2 power melee weapons of 25 dps each. Same as the nob, 75/25 for a 350hp dude with 60ish dps that also comes with a 20% hp buff to the whole squad (including himself) plus swamp 'em... 1282 hp has a lvl 1 slugga squad in t2.

Anyway, i dont think sluggas need a MAJOR nerf, but they do need some nerfs

Slugga burnas has always been one of the most redundant upgrades in the game. After burn da house was introduced we started seeing them at all since there was a reason to actually get it.




My problem with so many of you ppl is that you simply decide that X is op and after you've made that desicion you don't even try to adapt to beat it, you just whine and qq for all eternity. Currently this game is more balanced than it has ever been in the time I have played it and I can't think of anything that is outright broken and entirely uncounterable.

gl hf

[Torpid]

Yes deff rolla is op I have never claimed it wasn't. But plenty of shit can wipe units outright in T3 and BW is somewhat like deff dread in that regard it only overperforms when it has free rain over the field. If you are prepared for it and got your shit together you can deal with it.

You claim it's OP and then try to defend it (I'm confused)? I think your line of argument for the defence is highly flawed. You see, according to that logic nothing is OP unless it isn't possible, in principle, to defeat. No single unit in this game is, in principle, impossible to defeat, therefore according to your logic no unit can overperform.

The idea of overperformance is that the unit causes too much of an advantage to the purchaser. Too much advantage is determined by various different variables such as the tier of the unit, the cost of the unit and how the tier/cost associates with the race's eco. The amount of bleed the unit can inflict. The level of economic harm done to your foe via lost map control/power farms. The disruption to your opponents macro by causing them to invest significant amounts of power on AV (and that disruption is further variable based on the time at which they have to do it and the extent to which AV is bad vs your composition both at present and in the future).

The BW then, is overpowered because it has not only huge bleed potential, but wipe potential, even more so than that of most other super-units or any other unit in the game for that matter. Furthermore the speed of the battlewagon complimented by its huge durability and naturally defence against melee makes it very compositionally challenging to defeat. It's mainly that deff rolla though.

[Toilailee]

I am not defending anything, I am explaining facts that people choose to ignore because it is so much easier and more fulfilling to chant "opopop imba abuse XD lol noob".

Srsly it does not matter what you beat ppl with in this game, be it BW, 3 tacs, 2 catachans, 4 guardsmen or hero + starting unit only, people will always complain about something when they are sore losers.
The first reaction in an online game when losing to someone is never anyting like "I can learn from this and do better next time" it is always "wow that is so op nerf lololo n00b l2p".

And Torpid there is a difference between unit/ability overperforming and being unbeatable/having no counter. Everything in this game can be countered with logical purchases and plays. Banging your head against the wall with the same cookie cutter bo you always play with and failing does not mean something is op, like oh so many ppl seem to think as a logical conclusion.


Shees retreating chasing is op but you can play around it by covering your retreat with snare/kb/supression/stun.

Double sentinels are op in t1 but you can adapt to it by playing very defensively and not overextending in t1.

tcsm/dark reapers dps to hi/shi is ridiculous, so jump/distract them and don't let them take potshots are your units.

HT charge + instant miasma is op so you have to position your units behind terrain/hero/vehicle to not get hit by charge or stun him.

Deff dread is op in early t2 so you have to acknowledge it's existance and the possibility that of it coming out, and make sure you don't get outteched too much. And if you're expecting it keep your transitional av ready (keep them close enough to defend your power if needed and e.g keep purchasing and stopping lascanon upgrade).

Weirdboy vomit is op, but you can predict it's coming, bait it out and dodge it. Or just distract weirdboy himself to keep him from using it.

Deff rolla is op. So start by keeping some awareness on your opponents power incomes and purchases.
If you haven't bashed them once and ork player has had small army throughout the game, then yes there is a good chance of BW coming out.
When you first see bw get the fuck out and try to block the first deff rolla with something, preferably a hero since they can't be one shotted and will delay the bw long enough. If you haven't seen tankbustas b4 bw then chances are there aren't yet any inside the bw which means you can stop the deff rolla with a vehicle since the bw itself does poor av damage and only things it might be able to kill itself are rb/fp/trukk.
As soon as you see it buy a vehicle snare asap. If it's a melta/haywire then don't use it randomly, reserve it to stopping the next deff rolla. In case of a lascanon keep it way back, even if it isn't in range to cover the engagement, it's there to prevent bw from charging all over you.
That is how you rly want to engage bw anyway, always make it come to you and have a snare rdy. Keep it from rolling over your units and do as much damage as you can to it because srsly ork repair is shitty, even with mek and slugga you don't have enough to keep it healthy. I usually end up buying 2 or 3 wagons in long 3v3s simply because I don't have time to repair it for so long, which means I forgo buying nobs or tanks after bw and keep a healthy float so I can get a new one out fast. So if your opponent does get nobs after bw he is srsly taxing his economy (yes even ork eco) and most likely won't be able to rebuy bw if he loses it.
Also bw is shitty at sitting on something and shooting while being repaired like a bb, to be effective it will always have be in the front lines which leaves it vulnerable to basically everything that wants to shoot at it. Acknowledge it's strengths and weaknesses (despite what your personal opinions about those are they exist), take advantage of them and plan your engagements accordingly.
Honestly if you aren't alredy behind when bw hits the field and have your upgraded & leveled core units, set up team(s) and a tank/walker out you're good to go with just a mentality change, recognize what the bw can do and be prepared for it.

[Codex]

Great post, Toil.

[Dark Riku]

T1 sluggas are joke in comparison to t1 shees and tics.

Hold on here. They definitely are not a joke in T1 at all. Not even in the comparison.

Daisy, Flash Gitz and Kommandos are not game changers?
Especially Daisy! This is new to me :p

Yes they are support units that easily lose in 1v1 to many T1 units.
They cannot be the backbone of any army, they only perform well
when supporting one.

They don't easily lose to most T1 units. I don't get how you can even state this.
Since when are game changers only "backbone" units?
These guys definitely make a deep impact on the game.

[Magus Magi]

So...we all agree that Daisy and the Weirdboy are over performing?

That's what I'm getting out of this, everyone agrees.

Unless someone doesn't agree...in which case, I want that person to know that I don't agree with them. Then we'll have to agree to disagree, so that everyone can agree again.

[Nurland]

Nice post Él Toilet.

Anyway all the units in the game make an impact, hence a lot of stuff can be considered "game changers". I always viewed cum-mans and gitz more of a backbone unit as Toil put it. Game changer units for me are stuff than forces drastic reactions like Nobz, (super)tanks, walkers and terminators for example. I suppose that is just a matter of how you view the game.

[MaxPower]

I am not defending anything.

Yes you are.

[..]
Everything in this game can be countered with logical purchases and plays.
[..]

According to your logic everything in this game is balanced, why do we need new balance patches then?

How about the lightning claw terminators + force commander with lightning claws back in chaos rising, they shredded everything, they could solo armies.

They were op, like totally broken, but following your train of thought, they were not because you could just get lc terminators of your own if you were a FC and defeat them.

So "logical purchase and plays" means, just get strongest unit there is and all those guys thinking that a certain unit is op should just use the same race and the same unit then as well. This ultimately means that one should play whatever race is op, you've got to run with the pack so to speak it's what you are saying.

[..]
Deff dread is op in early t2 so you have to acknowledge it's existance and the possibility that of it coming out, and make sure you don't get outteched too much.
[..]

So its op, but its okay for it being op because one just has to acknowledge its existence?

Okay I'd like me a primarch for the sm then, I mean sure he would be op, but you have to acknowledge it's existence and the possibility that of it coming out, and make sure you don't get outteched too much.

See how flawed this logic is?

[..]
Weirdboy vomit is op, but you can predict it's coming, bait it out and dodge it. Or just distract weirdboy himself to keep him from using it.
[..]

Again its okay being op, because everyone knows that once the weirdboy is out on the field he will use the vomit eventually?

[..]
Deff rolla is op. So start by keeping some awareness on your opponents power incomes and purchases.
[..]

What you are saying is, yes the Deff Rolla is op and instead of changing its op-potential, one should try and outtech/hinder him to get the BW in the first place.

But how does that change the fact that it is still op? Sure if an enemy can't afford a BW he can't use the Deff Rolla, but just because one can't use the Deff Rolla doesn't mean that it is suddenly balanced.

TL;DR

You logic doesn't make any sense whatsoever, a unit still maintains its op potential even if one A. acknowledge it's existence, B. can predict it's coming, C. denies the enemy to get the unit that has the op ability or is op in itself.

[Raffa]

Actually, Toil has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

And I don't see any flaws in his logic, like at all.

[MaxPower]

Actually, Toil has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

And I don't see any flaws in his logic, like at all.

Okay, maybe I don't get his logic, so please explain to me how his logic is not flawed.

[Nurland]

He was saying that the balance of the game is better than it has ever been... Hence the even the "op" shit can be dealt with (even though it might be a bit difficult at times and might require adapting to the situation by changing playstyle or your plans for the next purchases etc). Though some stuff maybe overperforms in certain situation, none of that crap is uncounterable.

Anyway that's what I got from Toilet's post.

[Sub_Zero]

I believe it was designed to allow him to be a lone-hunter. Like he pulls any hero to his position and 1 v 1 him. But in fact the ability is used to pull any hero and 12311516236 v 1 him or just other cheap uses like pull in immortal leaders. This ability should be given only to the T3-lictor. The LA's flesh hook should be reworked since it is pretty broken to have such an ability in T1 with no cost whatsoever. However players do manage to counter it. Hive Tyrant, Brother Captain, Chaos Lord are immune to it; Force Commander, Lord Commissar, Warlock, Inquisitor have shields that provide them knockback immunity; Mekboy, Warp Spider Exarch, Chaos Sorcerer can teleport away; Plague Champion, Ravener Alpha can purchase T2 armors to be immune to it and other heroes have no natural ways to negate the OP Hook. But Apo can go for his grenades and his sanguine sword; Techmarine can go for his melee build; Kommando Nob and Warboss are rather glad to be pulled in since they can cause havoc after it, Farseer can use her gravity blade and other tricks, Lictor Alpha has this ability and well he is glad to be pulled in really; Lord General is tanky enough to survive it. And that is just what heroes can do to counter it. But you also have units that should help. And hence do this ability need to be fixed if every hero can counter it? Tell me what thing in the game cannot be countered? This thing will be truly overpowered. And things that can get countered by any army and any hero should not be considered as overpowered. Huh?

I wrote that a long time ago. First of all before fixing "overpowered" things we have to formulate our own definition to the term "overpowered" for the game we try to balance. And only after that we can mark some things as overpowered.

[Ace of Swords]

Ok this might not be on topic, but im sorry to say this, that's not a great post at all you guys need to start thinking with your head honestly.

Toil what you are saying boils down to, "if you can't counter it in it's tier win the game before you can lose".

By your line of logic retail is perfectly balanced and there is no reason for this mod.

Retail sents? Np just play defensively.
Retail catas? Np just buy more units to counter them
Retail orks? np just bleed them more than the req they can generate
Hellfury strike one shotting whole gens farms? Lol don't bleed enough to make the ig generate enough red

Baneblade one shotting t3 tanks? Just don't make tanks and the problem doesn't exsist.


Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

Im not going into detail with your whole post unless you or the other people want to, but you need to realize there is a context for units, they have their high and lows, which can be the tier where they are, the cost or other stuff they can't be always good, for example sluggas are bad only right at the start of the game when they already get their burnas they become a very good T1 unit and with them they can beat everything but AC tics and shees if they don't get specials, plus you mentitioned some example of counters, yeah well it doesn't work that way especially when said races have a baseline counters to the counters needed for their T1.5

Aside from that, the whole ork rooster is a joke in terms of cost atm, all of the Weirdboy abilities have side effects that they shouldn't have like warpath increasing damage (can you imagine how retarded it would be if VoT increased the damage of the affected unit by 25%? IIRC warpath is 15% but is AoE), or the vomit lasting 8 second and on top debuffing all and only the enemy units that it hit, it's also really not easy to dodge, actually impossible unless the wb player screws up considering how big it's AoE and how long is the distance of the ability.

Or no mentition other stuff like stikkbombas cost only 20 fucking power, and are probably the best artillery unit in the game aswell as can easily wipe low hp retreating units, and throwing those bombs requires much less skill than usual retreat nades, the trukk, not really much to say apart that it literally costs less than a lascannon, and the deff dread is pretty good trough the whole game, you can rush it like a BC but with the burnas it becomes as good as a dread for still a stupidly low Req cost and just 80 power, and it still retails it's ability to run faster which usually makes it impossible to kill unless you double snare it.

And about the painboy, I think i've already made 1000 about it.

[Torpid]

He was saying that the balance of the game is better than it has ever been... Hence the even the "op" shit can be dealt with (even though it might be a bit difficult at times and might require adapting to the situation by changing playstyle or your plans for the next purchases etc). Though some stuff maybe overperforms in certain situation, none of that crap is uncounterable.

Anyway that's what I got from Toilet's post.

And nobody contested that in the first place. So the whole post was an out-of-place rant.

[Sub_Zero]

Aside from that, the whole ork rooster is a joke in terms of cost atm, all of the Weirdboy abilities have side effects that they shouldn't have like warpath increasing damage (can you imagine how retarded it would be if VoT increased the damage of the affected unit by 25%? IIRC warpath is 15% but is AoE), or the vomit lasting 8 second and on top debuffing all and only the enemy units that it hit, it's also really not easy to dodge, actually impossible unless the wb player screws up considering how big it's AoE and how long is the ability of the distance.

Or no mentition other stuff stikkbombas cost only 20 fucking power, and are probably the best artillery unit in the game aswell as can easily wipe low hp retreating units, and throwing those bombs requires much less skill than usual retreat nades, the trukk, not really much to say apart that it literally costs less than a lascannon, and the deff dread is pretty good trough the whole game, you can rush it like a BC but with the burnas it becomes as good as a dread for still a stupidly low Req cost and just 80 power, and it still retails it's ability to run faster which usually makes it impossible to kill unless you double snare it.

I double it. Looks like someone refuses to open his eyes on the orks' op sides.

[Torpid]

I agree with Max, the logic itself makes no sense whatsoever, but that's likely because Toil's saying things are OP based on the definition of consensus and then saying that it isn't because it isn't impossible to counter (which is poor english in itself, this is gay, but it's not gay because gay isn't defined as such?). Well OFC, but what's your point? Nobody actually thinks that something overpowered is completely uncounterable, else Caeltos would have very swiftly nerfed that. Hence why the whole post was more of a rant about player biased and logical hur-dur than anything overtly productive to the discussion. It was productive insofar that it pointed out a faulty definition to which nobody subscribed and also in that it gave some methodology with regards to dealing with the BW.

I already gave my definition of overpowered before on this thread:

"The idea of overperformance is that the unit causes too much of an advantage to the purchaser. Too much advantage is determined by various different variables such as the tier of the unit, the cost of the unit and how the tier/cost associates with the race's eco. The amount of bleed the unit can inflict. The level of economic harm done to your foe via lost map control/power farms. The disruption to your opponents macro by causing them to invest significant amounts of power on AV (and that disruption is further variable based on the time at which they have to do it and the extent to which AV is bad vs your composition both at present and in the future). "

So despite being in principle able to counter the BW, it is still overpowered because in practice the amount of wipe potential/bleed it has is overly strong given its price, tier (based on they are relevant to this race's eco), its durability and speed, it's disruption and it's build time. How we can back our claims up with a bit more evidence than just asserting "this is too strong given x"? Let's try and compare to similar units. Now, the BB seems to be the obvious comparison here because both the BW and the BB are very very powerful super units that can flip a game on its head. Now, the BB is no-harder to kill than the BW, given the BW is so much faster and has a natural melee deterrent, yet the BB has far fewer counters than the BW since it can beat all tanks 1v1 and has a natural infantry counter via its demolisher cannon. I think this is a decent trade-off assuming the bleed of both was similar, especially considering how difficult it is to get a BB from the IG eco. However the BW is far more devastating than the BB when it first comes out with its ability to wipe squads instantly.

Overall however it seems the BB is better just because how much better it counters its counters, but not by much. Yet, we all agree the BB is blatantly OP. Yet, given the silly design of the unit and the inability to get it in 1v1 it kind of has to be overpowered. Is the BW on this same level? If so I think something should be done about it because it tends to be easier to get than a BB, even in 1v1 and it's way more versatile and has better wipe potential. I mean compare the BW to terminators/guo/avatar/land raiders. There's little comparison, it's just better and yes I'm taking into account all the things I mentioned in that earlier post about what OP means.


Now I'm pretty sure given this is a very expensive t3 super-unit that nobody wants to change the price/tier of it. Duh! So what are the other options? Should we make it has an additional counter? Nah, it already has enough. How about reducing its speed/durablity? Well, considering how poorly it fares vs other tanks and how it struggles to counter las-teams I don't think that's fair. So what makes it OP if it bad vs all this? The deff rolla of course! Naturally resistance to HM squads and amazing retreat killing potential. Just nerf that slightly and we're good to go, maybe make it proc 60% of the time it does now or something.

[Sub_Zero]

I already gave my definition of overpowered before on this thread

I saw that. But we have to formulate that together, discuss that more. That is an important thing. And once we've established the definition we can mark things as overpowered and nobody should argue that we had no right to do it. Actually I find your definition as a suitable one.