Dawn of War Codex

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 1:58 pm**

appiah4 wrote:Melee Plague Marines sound really unfluffy though, nearly as bad as Ranged Khorne Marines..

Eh? Plague Marines are quite commonly equipped for close-range warfare. They prefer short-ranged firefights even so that they can see the horror and plague which they inflict.

Plague Marines prefer short-ranged firefights, where they can see the festering wounds inflicted upon their enemies whilst they shrug off the bolts and las-blasts directed back at them. Their decaying brains are inured to the agony of the bodily corruption that runs rampant in their diseased carcasses, making them all but immune to the pain or discomfort caused by battle wounds

One would argue that, a Plague Marine could just easily just troddle up to the enemy and get an even better view of the enemy. Besides that, alot of their perks is just that they can shrug off enemy blows with ease, allowing them to quickly close the distance. Seems like an almost waste of gift to not go into close-quarter combats with the enemy, just so they can see what they're missing out on not being with the Dark Gods of Chaos.

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 1:58 pm**

i also dont like that ...

its just not cool.

what about Nurglings? (they quite the same as rippers and look like mini GOU´s)
they would fulfill the same role and maybe even better because of their tiny size.

for transition AV just change Palque marines to an Upgrade called mark of nurgle - like it actually is

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 1:59 pm**

appiah4 wrote:Melee Plague Marines sound really unfluffy though, nearly as bad as Ranged Khorne Marines..

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_ ... zWAQ_ldWfk

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 2:04 pm**

what about Nurglings? (they quite the same as rippers and look like mini GOU´s)
they would fulfill the same role and maybe even better because of their tiny size.

We don't have the models, so that's out of the question. Besides that, Nurglings aren't very terrifying per entity, but stacked in a swarm, they are. If anything, that isn't what Chaos requires at the moment.

Individually, a Nurgling is not a dangerous opponent. A grown human can simply kick it aside without difficulty. That is why Nurglings gather in monstrous swarms on the field of battle, making up for their lack of strength and size with raw numbers and their highly infectious claws and bites. Their favorite method of attack is to overrun a single individual and bring him down under the sheer mass of their pestilent bodies.

So in order for this to work, Nurglings would require the following;
- High quantiy models to appropiate suit their theme. (8 models or so) = 8 pop(?) or potentially 16 or so. 6 models is potential, but that isn't very "swarmy" nontheless.
- New models (or customizing the size of GUO, but that would look downright silly due to the GUO animations are more set to be very big and clumsy)

You see that there are some issues already there.

As stated, the Plague Marines (melee-oriented) would suit more for reducing some of the transitional mid-late game stages of the game with less-overall bleed potential, but this isn't to say if you use them recklessly, there are no repercussions.

for transition AV just change Palque marines to an Upgrade called mark of nurgle - like it actually is

I'm not quite sure I don't understand?

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 2:09 pm**

i understand the problems with the nurglings... i would like them though

the funcionality would exaclty be the same like the rippers are... hard to hit about 8 models, melee only with high sustain but no damage

the last quote:

plaque marines are actually CSM with mark of nurgle - just like khorne berserkers are CSM with mark of khorne.
the mark of tzeentch must have been changed in the TT since i stopped playing it, because when i did so they also were slow with high sustain like the PMs

so what i mean is - plaque marines could easily be an upgrade for CSM

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 2:13 pm**

Yes, Plague Marines carry Plague knives. And you know what, Khorne Marines carry Bolt Pistols.

A short range firefight is still a firefight; i.e. in 40K terms it's Bolter/Rapid Fire range. Plague Marines are ranged units. I repeat, the melee Plague Marine squad is as dumb as the ranged Khorne Marine squad. They are oxymorons. I think this is a terrible idea, the more I think the more I hate it.

Do it with Plaguebearers (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Plaguebearer) or don't do it at all..

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 2:35 pm**

Yes, Plague Marines carry Plague knives. And you know what, Khorne Marines carry Bolt Pistols.

Well, better to put use of that Bolt Pistol rather than having nothing in your other hand I suppose.

A short range firefight is still a firefight; i.e. in 40K terms it's Bolter/Rapid Fire range. Plague Marines are ranged units. I repeat, the melee Plague Marine squad is as dumb as the ranged Khorne Marine squad. They are oxymorons. I think this is a terrible idea, the more I think the more I hate it.

That's abit speculative and subjective. As stated in their description, it would have be in range of where they can see them close-enough with their vision. Being in that close proximity also leads them vulnerable to CQC, so it's pretty suitable that they're adapative to dealing with those foes.

Nurgle isn't something that dictates "Hey, you guys can't melee guys, that's not what you're suppose to!". I don't believe any god is actually setting up any specific rules for their doctrine army. Khorne is abit more specialized perhaps to the sense that they really love to be in the thick of it, but they're hardly the most sane people of the Chaos army. Alas, it's Chaos - nobody in that context is hardly sane.

The flesh of the Plague Marines is always bloated, distended and corpulent, seething with corruption and decay and it is a terrible sight to behold. The stench alone given off by Plague Marines is enough to incapacitate many enemy troops. Yet this seemingly necrotic and decaying flesh makes the Plague Marine almost impossible to kill with small arms fire and they are able to shrug off injury and damage that would destroy even the superhuman physiology of the standard Astartes. When Imperial forces enter combat against these horrific servants of Chaos, the mass concentrated firepower of weapons more commonly employed to deal with armoured vehicles is recommended as the key to bringing down these monsters of corruption.

So purely strategically put, wouldn't you almost want these almost IN MELEE range of the enemy? If they're put in the ranks of the enemy, the only ways to actually efficiently put them down would to almost cause indirect-fire from artillery/etc within your own ranks. If you want to kill a plague marine, you might have to suffer the conseqences of killing your own men in return.

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 2:54 pm**

I think it's pretty harsh to moan about fluff with this. Nobody would think twice if Plague Marines that attacked in melee turned up in a WH40k novel. If someone can whip up a plague knife model they'd even be using fluffy TT weapons, but I don't even think that is a big deal. There are no "plague bolters" or "plague swords" either, if they used "plague chainswords" it's just as fluffy and within the realm of possibility as any of the Chaos artefacts from the codex.

Plague Marines may be ranged units in the codex (though the champion can take almost any melee weapon iirc), but they're not synonymous with ranged combat as Khorne Berzerkers are synonymous with melee combat.

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 3:09 pm**

the mark of tzeentch must have been changed in the TT since i stopped playing it, because when i did so they also were slow with high sustain like the PMs

A Chaos Marine with Mark of Tzeentch and a Thousand Sons Rubric Marine is not the same thing. ( Same with Mark of Slaanesh =/= Noise Marine ).
ELITE uses Thousand Sons models for MoT marines, well because I guess they exist and it makes them easier to identify.

I repeat, the melee Plague Marine squad is as dumb as the ranged Khorne Marine squad.

While Plague Marines are not real melee units, that comparision is really weak.
Plague Marines in the TT / Background got the "Firm Grip" special rule for a reason.

Firm Grip allows to wield a Bolter like a Pistol ( one handed ) giving you an additional melee attack. A Special Rule that has no effects / adventages outside of close combat.
So yeah, Plague Marines arent melee units like Khorne Berserkers, but they arent Ranged Units in the style of Rubrik Marines either. They stand somewhere in the middle.

Edit: Regarding Nurglings, I guess you could scale down the Great Unclean one by alot and put him in a unit with like 7+ Models, but I dont wanna know what that would do to performance^^

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 3:12 pm**

You said its going to be a call-in, what kind of call-in is it going to be?

You click on the call-in button:

a. squad spawns at base
b. squad spawns at your heroes location
c. squad spawns on the map wherever you want (i.e. Terminators, Warpspiders)

Don't like option C, because that means that setup teams will receive yet another blow to their effectiveness.

Anyways, lets say you go with either option b. or c., with Terminators its clear that they teleported in, same with Warpspiders. What's it the background for the Plagues to magically appear out of thin air?

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 3:14 pm**

MaxPower wrote:. What's it the background for the Plagues to magically appear out of thin air?

Warprift? Not very plague-y, but would be the next logical thing, imho.

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 3:22 pm**

Orkfaeller wrote:
MaxPower wrote:. What's it the background for the Plagues to magically appear out of thin air?

Warprift? Not very plague-y, but would be the next logical thing, imho.

Yeah that is my prob, it is totally not plaguey. It would be cool if they could come up with a nice solution and/or a cool animation too, like the plagues crawling out of the ground or something. Something you could see in almost every Zombie movie.

Just watch the whole 5 part Zombies Rising Out Of The Ground on youtube to get an idea or inspiration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnsBDnwCBuc

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 3:26 pm**

MaxPower wrote:Yeah that is my prob, it is totally not plaguey. It would be cool if they could come up with a nice solution and/or a cool animation too, like the plagues crawling out of the ground or something.

Had the same thought, but no idea how to do that, without having new animations.
Maybe they could spawn from a cloud of flies or a vomit eruption.
Maybe they spawn lying on the ground, like a knocked out commander, and get up slowly.

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 3:29 pm**

Yeah sounds okay I guess, it is sad that we dont have any animator working for the Elite mod. :cry:

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 3:30 pm**

They spawn at the base.

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 3:41 pm**

how about instead of that we change them to green dildos that spawn out of the ground, they have really slow move speed and lock onto 1 target and chase it around until they explode and do damage over time in an AOE.

(But seriously plz change this global, its turrible)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbRUTHGLu9s

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 7:01 pm**

Caeltos wrote:They spawn at the base.

Ugh... I expected honest call-in. But I understand this decision.

sk4zi wrote:plaque marines are actually CSM with mark of nurgle - just like khorne berserkers are CSM with mark of khorne.

Fluff note: this is incorrect. Cult marines are either one step ahead of regular mark bearers in terms of dedication to their god and lifestyle (plagues, noises) or something rather different altogether (sons, zerkers).

I am aware that in Elite we have tzeench marines that look pretty much like Thousand Sons, but that's mostly for the looks.

That said, shouldn't we take all dem talks on fluff elsewhere?

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 7:28 pm**

It may seem a little weird but why not use the slimy animation when nid units appear through their hive or with certain globals?

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 8:00 pm**

Helios wrote:It may seem a little weird but why not use the slimy animation when nid units appear through their hive or with certain globals?

I think that's a good idea.

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 8:09 pm**

Melee Plague Marines are perfectly fluffly. Please, read the Nurgle Gifts in Lexicanum and you can see that half of his gifts are effective only in melee range.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_ ... _of_Nurgle

It's a lot less fluffy that the Plague Marines, which bears the power of Nurgle have less DOT damage in their bolters than Sternguards Veterans with Hellfire ammo, and it seems this isn't a problem. :lol:

Posted: **Fri 28 Mar, 2014 11:44 pm**

Fluff wise, you could also easily make the argument that the 'original' plague marines, were all from the 14th legion. Who basically relied on large scale infantry assaults (said marines were also expected to be adequately trained in both melee and range)

Posted: **Sat 29 Mar, 2014 10:43 am**

I really like the idea!
I already suggested the melee Plague Marine as an upgrade to standard Plague Marine in the past, but seeing them in this version is a cool idea.

The "firm grip" idea will sure make this new unit look unique.
Make them fire more imprecise or slowly to normal marines, if they need to have lower dps.
It will look great, i'm sure.

But what about the name?
Plague Marine is already taken.

Posted: **Sat 29 Mar, 2014 3:09 pm**

ChrisNihilus wrote:The "firm grip" idea will sure make this new unit look unique.
Make them fire more imprecise or slowly to normal marines, if they need to have lower dps.
It will look great, i'm sure.

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Pistol or Bolter; We would still need some nasty looking Plague Knife.
I think David-CZ ( might be wrong ) found an unused, curved Ork Knife somewhere in the files, that could be resized and used.

What about the name?

Maybe they could just be called "Chosen Plague Marines"? Or maybe in some of there Horus Heresy books some sort of DeathGuard assault or elite formation is named?

Posted: **Sat 29 Mar, 2014 8:55 pm**

During the Horus Heresy, and prior to that. There was 'one' Death Guard 'special forces' unit, it was called the "Deathshroud", basically, a terminator honour guard for the primarch armed with power scythes). There were also "Grave Warden Terminators", basically terminators with a lot of heavy weapons.

Naturally, those two are completely unsuitable as a call in replacement for "Plague of Undeath".

The only other specialisation of the Death Guard, was chemical warfare, they were most renowned for using large numbers of 'Destroyer Squads', basically, marines who were really fond of using ranged chemical weapons (including things like gas grenades). If i also recall correctly, Destroyer Squads are primarily close combat units, with melee weapons, with some ranged upgrades (like plasma pistols, missile launcher, grenade launcher etc). In game terms, we could name them 'Destroyer Squad' and have a two/three/four man squad that is originally a melee squad, with an optional ranged weapon upgrade (for say.... one/two marine?)

Posted: **Sun 30 Mar, 2014 11:54 am**

Orkfaeller wrote:I think David-CZ ( might be wrong ) found an unused, curved Ork Knife somewhere in the files, that could be resized and used.

I think you're referring to http://dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=279&p=7770#p7770.

Yeah, I suppose that would do. They'd still look orky but with a new texture they should be alright. The blade could be a bit narrower, though.

This reminds me, it never actually got implemented, right?

Posted: **Sun 30 Mar, 2014 1:58 pm**

Hm, i wonder.. when the old global is being removed there will also be a lot less to see of the awesome zombie mechanic.
Is it possible to combine the zombie mechanic with these new plague marines? Like Units that die from a death explosion turn into zombies or even the plague marines themselves serve as short living zombies after they died or something like that.

Posted: **Sun 30 Mar, 2014 6:17 pm**

I remember i was trying to work on a plasma gun (was going to get someone to make the plasma gun with green energy and a green plasma fx) for the PC that would (when activated the sustained with the ability) would cast this "plague of undeath" on the squad getting attacked by the PC's plasma gun (an on hit action). The duration would be short, about the time it take for the plasma gun to make another shot. The short duration to help try to make this "ability" stay secluded to one squad and not be able to effect two when switch targeted squads.

I gave up on it though.

Posted: **Sun 30 Mar, 2014 9:44 pm**

As long as you Give Commissar Lord global that gives Commissar Training squad on the field. :p

Posted: **Sun 30 Mar, 2014 11:17 pm**

I believe Commisar Cadet Squad exist in Soulstorm/Ultimate Apocalypse mod ^^

Posted: **Mon 31 Mar, 2014 6:05 am**

Discreet wrote:I believe Commisar Cadet Squad exist in Soulstorm/Ultimate Apocalypse mod ^^

I'm also pretty sure than mods like that one are mostly for kicks and giggles though

Also, what would you trade for that? I'm afraid that LttE is the closest candidate, if only because of how rarely it is used.

Dawn of War Codex

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