Dawn of War Codex

Yeah, the VA really doesnt need cloaking

Orkfaeller wrote:I think they did at some point and he still caused crashes.
Lulgrim I believe mentioned that he de-activated the cloak script for one of the updates but it didnt help.

Oh. Well that sucks then :l

hastaga wrote:ok, i'm a chaos sorc player as some of you know. Making this thread not to qq but because i'm genuinely wondering about it; could GK t1 really be too hard to deal with for my hero?

brother captain kills sorc 1v1, even with sword upgrade

strike squad kills sorc, even with sword upgrade

GK storm troopers... this one frustrates me the most. They move really fast, hurts you regardless of upgrades, even more annoying with grenade launchers
- scouts have fast movements but short range
- heretics have slow movements but long range
- these storm troopers have both and their grenades hit you easier coz they travel faster! I tried using launchers vs launchers against some better GK players and they have no problem microing out of mine while kiting my tics! And I bleed harder!

Lastly, interceptors. Melee tics were supposed to counter them, but sadly NOPE! Coz their dmg is so high that they kill tics rly rly fast. Faster than tics killing them -_- So I can't punish interceptors like I pushing SM ASM with melee tics. (Yes of coz I tried using flame sword + tics combo, but Brother Captain Mantle of Terra, sth that makes him even more dgaf charging my line and AOE that burns my tics + make them unable to explode)

Sigil of rift is just too clunky to use against GK storm troopers; cast time etc.

And from wt impact i felt, GK t1 range does hurt, it doesn't suck at all.

*edit: Forgot to mention raptors; No, I see no reason getting those against GK.

Correct me if im wrong but isnt DPS from interceptors are the same or even lower against regular infantry ?

Rataxas wrote:Correct me if im wrong but isnt DPS from interceptors are the same or even lower against regular infantry ?

They don't wield power_melee (except justicar), so that shouldn't be the case. However, that post looks like something about practical experience, so I'm not sure if that knowledge can be of any help in this particular case.

We have an awesome Codex for a reason.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... ord_marine

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... d_purifier

To sum up, regular Interceptors do the same damage as regular Raptors (30.77 melee_pvp dps) which against infantry only have reduction damage against Commander and Super Heavy Infantry armour types. (21.54 dps and 21.54 dps) The Interceptors' Justicar do 34.62 power_melee damage dps, which is a bit more than the damage than the ASM Sargent have and a bit less than a KCSM + EW model damage. Have no drawbacks against infantry armours, and do 30% more damage against HI and SHI.

I'm a little late to this party, but the topic intrigues me enough to resurrect the thread, especially since my experiences and feelings on it are completely different.

In my experience, I've found that I've completely facerolled GK in T1 with the sorcerer, but then I run into the classic sorcerer challenge of transitioning into tier 2 and dealing with vehicles.

In t1, I would go 2 tics, 1 csm, raptors, and teleport armor. Jump the sorcerer in, jump the raptors in, have CSM aggressively force melee, and this all results in strikes, storms, and purgations getting immediately tied up, and letting tics get in while taking minimal damage. I've found this specifically works against GK because they don't counter melee as reliably as other races early on.

I would literally just ignore and run past the brother captain because he doesn't disrupt and doesn't do enough damage in tier 1 for me to care.

Generally I've found Raptors more effective in t1, while havocs not such a good choice because of how easily they can get wiped by interceptors.

As far as Canticle goes, I think I would usually just back off a bit as soon as the brother captain casts it.

The real problems I find, come in tier 2. Now the Brother Captain will do too much damage to be ignored if he gets an upgraded weapon; vehicles become a challenge because they always are for the Sorcerer, especially with a Raptor build; and a havoc, whether a lascannon or a heavy bolter, is even more easily wiped by interceptors who have their justicar.

From my experience I will honestly say that the sorcerer rises or falls by the first doombolt in the skirmish... I well placed doombolt with a cultist squad coming in just immediately makes me go... Miss however and it's like I got this...

My order of chaos commanders I find most tough to play against as gk
Plague champion
-omfg I loathe this guy... I swear when he gets that fing plague sword in t1 he just cuts through the strike squad. and in t2 when he gets his power fist he just becomes even worse. and then he gets armor upgrades to wear your stormtroopers are worthless against him because of how tough he is...
-Chaos lord
in t1 he's a respectable opponent in t2 he just becomes stupid ridiculous. With the claws regenerating health and dark halo build... omfg I will not attack this guy unless I can put down the canticle before he puts up the halo otherwise he pretty much runs through everything when he's backed up.

Chaos sorcerer
he's a bane in t1 if the doombolts land. I mean if they land its just like retreat everytime or else the cultist will rip your strikes a new one..In t2 his strength really comes in that damn dome of his that decreases the damage output of ranged weapons. Now I have to go up to your force with cultist waiting and knowing I HAVE to take up a doombolt... its frustrating to say the least. Finally in t3 when he's running around with the tomb of subjugation it's just.... I payed all those points for a paladin squad and now well they are walking into an abyss being shot up by 2x tzeentch csm and being hacked down by chaos claw terminators...

At the end of the day the chaos sorcerer I believe will always be a commander where the skill of the player dictates how well he will do. The plague champion for instance against gk is pretty straight forward. plague sword> plague fist +armor let him got to town. I was in a game just the other day and he was tanking through my terminator squad?!? I was like what in the blazes of Christ goin on?

dodge the doombolts then ?:p subjagation is pretty powerful in t3, but you just used the 1 squad vs 3 squads+nuke+hero scenario...
oh and if he gets a plague sword you should be happy, in t1 its pretty much useless and costs a lot
and if he gets 85 power in t2 just to make his PC even slower, get a dreadnought

Freem wrote:oh and if he gets a plague sword you should be happy, in t1 its pretty much useless and costs a lot

Useless? °_O Yeah, power melee, ignoring melee resistance versus a power armoured race is so bad! Mind = blown.

Not to mention that he then is doing 13plasma dps with 100% FOTM (all other hero plasma pistols do 8dps and the difference is very noticeable) against a race which struggles vs melee heroes.

Plague sword is amazing against GK and there's no reason to swap it out for the fist in T2 either, that's a waste of resources.

Freem wrote:oh and if he gets a plague sword you should be happy, in t1 its pretty much useless and costs a lot
and if he gets 85 power in t2 just to make his PC even slower, get a dreadnought

WHAT????

Have you ever seen Plague sword hit Heavy Armor? Fing thing hurts bro! Hell, sometimes I get it vs Chaos because then they REALLY don't want to send in their heretics. Get in VS nids, no melee warriors. Vs eldar, you have to get the t2 armor here or PC will most likely be a liability from all the KB eldar can do. And Vs SM, watch those scouts and you win most of your engagements.

Umm that armor makes him immune to knockback with the exception of ability KB...plus he gets a TON of health also. If you have the power sword AND this armor. You are OK to have a havocs (for a lascannon) since he by himself will pwn a jump squad. The only jump squad I would really be afraid of is Storm Boyz with nob leader.

Now let me ask you a question freed? Are you happy when you see a power sword Force Commander when you (if you get them) get a HI jump squad?

Dark Riku wrote:

Freem wrote:oh and if he gets a plague sword you should be happy, in t1 its pretty much useless and costs a lot

Useless? °_O Yeah, power melee, ignoring melee resistance versus a power armoured race is so bad! Mind = blown.

uh, guess useless isn't the word i should've used, no need to be such a dick though-,-

The plague sword is good in this patch due to the need of interceptors, but in the next patch plague sword will be only viable if you go for them
and then still, you can kite the PC

edit: srsly, did you have to post 1 second before i did relic?!
Have you ever seen a PC being kited? It hurts bro (yeah i'm fully aware of the fact that he's usually doing the counter-initiation)
i have one question, why the heck would you try to headbutt a PC with your crap?
and yeah, im kinda happy when it gets it, because I at least know he's decent and knows what to get vs mine army-composition. (or its just his playstyle :p)

The plague sword is one of the many reasons that I generally do not buy interceptors vs Chaos.

I often buy the Plague Sword in Tier 2 instead of the plague fist, in combination with Pestilence Armour, and I will almost never buy the fist after the sword. Most people do not respect it enough as a T2 weapon, but ignoring melee resistance makes this downright better (DPS-wise) against units with melee resistance, and quite significantly better against SM/GK.

Problem being you need it in combination with other stuff as his HP is too low for a melee fighter just by default. Thank Black Jesus it's giving a +70 hp buff next patch.

Interceptors are useless and buggy unless you want to abuse Canticle. Stormtroopers do most of their jobs but better, except for the AV snare, which is the buggy part. Do not get Interceptors.

On topic: from a few games with Maestro in 2v2, I think yes the Sorcerer should be finding T1 difficult against the tankiness of the BC, but come T2 it should even out and he has a significant advantage in T3 with subjugate, which can effecively deny the GK his use of terminators as it regularly deletes your investment. Use your teleport before engagements with a Sorcerer, don't be an idiot and leave it off cooldown so he teleports your terminators into the middle of his army. That goes for all terminators.

Freem wrote:uh, guess useless isn't the word i should've used, no need to be such a dick though-,-

I'm not allowed to respond the way I did on such an extreme post? Did I offend you in any way? °_O

My suggestions are:

Instead of writing, record your video of you and these difficulties - upload it - and those of us who can add our experience will do so.

Unconscious wrote:My suggestions are:

Instead of writing, record your video of you and these difficulties - upload it - and those of us who can add our experience will do so.

Good to see you back in the fold horus

Im realy new to Elite, but I feel just like the OP tbh. Tried every strategy known to me, but there is nothing i can do against GK. The main problem lies in their stormtroopers, they do way too much damage. At first I thought they were somewhat like Eldar "guardiands", but no - they are just better, it's a fact. One squad can simply wipe out enemy genfarm in acaptable time. I didnt play alot of GK myself though, but my ever first match as GK(vs Eldar Warlock) was a win by simply going 3 Storms, Purgation and Rhino-> completely passing T2 -> getting termies and killing all enemy squads at the enemy base.
I generaly dont understand what is suposed to be good against GK, every GK player I lose to, doesnt want to tell me what to do anyway.

Sindri_Myr wrote:Im realy new to Elite, but I feel just like the OP tbh. Tried every strategy known to me, but there is nothing i can do against GK. The main problem lies in their stormtroopers, they do way too much damage. At first I thought they were somewhat like Eldar "guardiands", but no - they are just better, it's a fact. One squad can simply wipe out enemy genfarm in acaptable time. I didnt play alot of GK myself though, but my ever first match as GK(vs Eldar Warlock) was a win by simply going 3 Storms, Purgation and Rhino-> completely passing T2 -> getting termies and killing all enemy squads at the enemy base.
I generaly dont understand what is suposed to be good against GK, every GK player I lose to, doesnt want to tell me what to do anyway.

Dire avengers are much better than storm troopers, they fire on the move, do more dps, and their upgrades benefit their army a lot more than IST upgrades.

it just sounds like you got outplayed. its to be expected unfortunately if you're new to ELITE.

you might want to start a new thread to ask all the questions you think you need to ask. you will very likely learn things.

Torpid wrote:

Torpid wrote:

hastaga wrote:because I am thinking it could be that GK is OP in this specific matchup. At least someone brought up about mantle being 'bs' and storm troopers are getting nerf

Please use the appropriate vernacular btw, it vexes me when you say that you "think it could the case that GK is 'OP' in this specific MU" because GK obviously aren't OP period, however they are favoured in some MUs (I don't think this is one though, but that's not my point here). Favoured =/= OP. Different things. Sorry for the pedantry.

Was I on my fucking period here or what? It's embarassing that I wrote that so recently.

So glad you guys put up with my bullshit at times <3

Ven wrote:

Sindri_Myr wrote:Im realy new to Elite, but I feel just like the OP tbh. Tried every strategy known to me, but there is nothing i can do against GK. The main problem lies in their stormtroopers, they do way too much damage. At first I thought they were somewhat like Eldar "guardiands", but no - they are just better, it's a fact. One squad can simply wipe out enemy genfarm in acaptable time. I didnt play alot of GK myself though, but my ever first match as GK(vs Eldar Warlock) was a win by simply going 3 Storms, Purgation and Rhino-> completely passing T2 -> getting termies and killing all enemy squads at the enemy base.
I generaly dont understand what is suposed to be good against GK, every GK player I lose to, doesnt want to tell me what to do anyway.

Dire avengers are much better than storm troopers, they fire on the move, do more dps, and their upgrades benefit their army a lot more than IST upgrades.

it just sounds like you got outplayed. its to be expected unfortunately if you're new to ELITE.

you might want to start a new thread to ask all the questions you think you need to ask. you will very likely learn things.

Stormtroopers fire in bursts though which is a pretty big deal and then they're quite a bit cheaper to both buy and reinforce. I definitely don't think it's obvious that DAs are better than ISTs.

Regardless, this is still largely applicable I find - have you tried this Sindri?:

Just go for a tic,csm,csm,tic,havoc build. Sword of flame on the CS. One AC tic. 2x CSM focus fire + flaming AC tics + CS should easily deal with the GKI and if you really need to blob you can do with both tics (since having CSM capping isn't that bad since they own IST whereas tics don't). Your CSM should be FFing any BC that is moving forward before he can cast canticle and you should have a bit of time to cast coruscating flame before the CoA kicks in after the GKI jump on your havocs.

Havocs are key here because they are great bait and they literally are worth the cost as bait in t1. They also force the GK to blob a lot and this is good for getting superior map control.

Your CSM should be bleeding IST all throughout t1 and really it's just unacceptable to be losing model son those CSM because GK have no real way to punish HI in t1 except GKI, but you have 2 tics so GKI shouldn't be killing CSM models.

anyway, this MU is much much harder in t1 than it is elsewhere in the game. Come T2 the CS roflstomps the GK and the only reason why the MU is balanced is because the GK should have a better eco in t1 (slightly better map control, but way less bleed).

Come T2 you ought to go for a quick BC. Forcing any AV purchase is great against GK because all their AV costs shit-tonnes of req and their T2 is really really really req-heavy (which is why the game becomes so easy for the CS in t2 - more explained shortly), furthermore usually they will need two AV choices to kill a BC unless they get a dreadnought. A dreadnought shouldn't give you much trouble at all though. Get a lascannon on that havoc, it's done it's job as a suppression team and you no longer need that anymore in T2 anyway (which is why an autocannon does well if they go for anything else than a dread). bloodcrusher under worship alongside the lascannon deals with the GK dread tremendously easily.

Anyway, after you get a BC the next purchase you want to make, or at least that I make, is double MoTCSM. TCSM absolutely butcher GK in all ways and two of them are a nightmare. You will bleed the GK to bits. His IST can't fight them at ranged for shit and nor can the SS. You suddenly have far far more ranged damage to kill GKI & the BC with too. Suddenly the GK has to commit hugely to every fight in which he meets your CSM else he bleeds endless models to inferno bolts.

Next I often get bloodletters. Bloodletters do some complementary AV, but that's kinda besides the point. Really they're just one hell of an amazing counter-initiation unit and where the AC tics completely fail in t2 (at countering purifiers/GKI) BLs excell. They are the reason why the las-havoc works, because the GKI can't afford to jump into BLs. The BLs then synergise with the incumbent BC/dual tics.

Often at this point I will purchase my supplementary upgrades in the order in which I feel I need them. That includes a second AC on my other tic squad. EW on my CSM and their ACs, robes of torment to control any pesky purifiers and the BC (and also to hold IST in place to force a retreat whenever I can) and sigil just because it has such amazing utility far beyond pulling and sniping enemy squads (such as teleporting tics into retreat path, or teleporting squads out of/into base, or teleporting set-up teams forward like gate of infinity, or for trolling capping ISt squads by teleporting my TCSM forward, forcing the IST off then jumping my TCSM back through the rift to my main army).

Now it's time to go T3. Hopefully you have bled the GK to absolute bits by now. It really isn't necessary to commit to a gen bash, so only do so if you truly feel like you could get one off without having to concede too mcuh bleed/map control. De-capping his req points is far more important here as that is what stops GK from going t3, not a lack of power, but rather req.

Once you hit T3 I like to get a predator. This is because GK AV is somewhat lacking and all they have to deal with the predator is a VA or dreads and realistically neither of them are gonna kill a predator whereas my predator is going to bleed the GK (especially those pesky IST) a lot. I know I've got the tech lead so I can go for a pred.

If somehow you don't have the tech-lead, or for some reason the GK has loads of AV (melta bomb, VA and a dreadnought/purifiers/las-rhino) and he's still in the game then just go for terminators. Their ranged damage is really amazing and once again you have a perfect way to bleed the IST (seeing a pattern here; yes, this is how you defeat GK) and in the prospect that they get their own terminator variant at some point you can easily upgrade to the lightning claws (you also can subjugate their termies and waste their tele and slaughter them with your termies/letters).

P.S if you have a huge tech-lead a khorne dreadnought does way better than a bloodcrusher, but really you want to use whatever vehicle you get in T2 to solidify one whole gen bash on the GK, or at least de-cap his matured req points.

Great rundown of the match Torpid!

One question: what do you do about a Dread (melee, natch)? The Havok + BC against a build with Interceptors sounds problematic. Granted, the they will take a bunch of damage after going in, but opening space for that GK melee dread to get in there leaves only the BC to deal with it, which is much too little. Is it just good positioning / micro, or do you alter the build if you expect it? Assume an uneventful T1, or one where the GK got ahead a bit. Thanks!

If the first purchase they made is a dread whereas you get a BC + TCSM then I suggest you get another havoc afterwards, give it an autocannon and place it behind the lascannon havoc. With chains of torment to control the BC/GKI and the melee resistance on the havocs it isn't too hard to keep the havocs around to ward off that dread and obv you have the las-havoc up front for the snare and the autocannon and the back to hurt the bc.

Makes sense. The TCSM do such a good zoning job with the chains backup that the las can safely go where it pleases, keeping the auto for the backup dps/AV against the initiate. Thanks!

Cyris wrote:Makes sense. The TCSM do such a good zoning job with the chains backup that the las can safely go where it pleases, keeping the auto for the backup dps/AV against the initiate. Thanks!

Exactly, because GK can't sit there trading ranged fire with TCSM and they lack arty so the best they can do is snipe you with the VA.