Dawn of War Codex

So you're suggesting that they be used as a form of point capture delay unit or somewhere along that context?

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Whiteshileds are apparently better at cover hugging than experienced GMs.

Anyways, the former suggestion has an advantage of being better at emergency cap/decap since you don't always have cover at VPs. That said, you probably can create light cover there, not sure...

Anyways, the former suggestion has an advantage of being better at emergency cap/decap since you don't always have cover at VPs. That said, you probably can create light cover there, not sure...

Well, Guardsmen can build cover. Conscripts might aswell.

Orkfaeller wrote:Since hakon, here, found out how to tie abilities (passives) to beeing in cover, maybe thats something that could be used for Conscripts.

I've been thinking about something along the lines of CoH2's Osttruppen.
Those are like really cheap throwaway units for the Germans.

They are very squishy, and dont hit all that well, but they get big boni when put in hard cover.

So, if you just put them one on one in an open field battle against another unit, they are almost guaranteed to lose.
But allow them to entrech themselves, and they can be suprisingly hard to force off.

This bonus-when-in-cover abilties are something Id really enjoy to see in multiplayer, and I think conscripts might be a good unit to experiment with.

__

Also in CoH2, you could call in these crappy units as "relieve infantry".
Meaning, if you lost alot of your actual main infantry, within a time window, you would get these crappy replacement units for "consolation",
Might be hard to implement though.

That's exactly the goal with Conscripts.

Tbh that sounds like something of Krieg flavour rather than conscripts. No luch here I guess since we kinda have those already...

I think that adding whiteshields into the game would be very easy and could help to deal some of the problems IG has upon arriving tier 2 and could aso help to make guarsmen builds without sentinels more viable.

I have an idea for the whitshields that could add some unique mechanics to IG comanders and also fullfill their roll as canon fodder.

Whitshields would be avaible for each IG comander to build in T1 but like heretics all whiteshield units would had an special ability tied to them much like the worship from the heretics.

The role of the whiteshields would be to support guardsmen not to do damage so I would give them lasguns to each member, but to reflect their lack of expertise and reduce DPS they would had a very slow firing rate in comparison to GM halving then efectivly their DPS. The double reloading time i think will help to reflect their lack of military trianing in comparison to GM.

These whiteshields are suposed to be canon fodder and are used in great number to soak up fire for the GM. I think this role could be represented in the game by giving the WS a strong aura of damage reduction arround them, along with some slightly health and supresion resistance (much like the warboss pole but aplies to GM). This aura will only affect imperial guard squads much like heretics and will help the GM to stand much more time in a firefight inflicting damage without having to instantly retreat. I think giving an aura to the WS will reflect in game the efect of "bodyshielding" as well as making the enemy focus fire the weak WS in order to get rid of this anoying aura.

Alonside this aura the WS squad would also had the following specs that all IG comanders would share. Note that unlike most squads this unit would not have energy instead it would use red, much more like orks helping to reflect that the unit it self its not making the impact in the field rather the "whole" IG army. Also i think that this would help balacing the unit since if it used energy could be way too good suporting blobs or guardmen and could be difficoult to counter and adding a red cost to abilities would make dificult for the IG player to simple stomp all over the map with the ranged GM blob.

Acitve ability (T1) Stand firm (35 red) : The squad will have and active ability that breaks supresion to all near GM squads and gives them supresion imunity for 7 seconds . This however doesnt apply to the WS itself since its suposed to be a manouver for drawing the enemy fire and this is meant to be for manouvering or countering a single HWT not countering directly supresion.

Pasive ability (T1): The WS squad when out of combat would had a very strong health regeneration to help to mantain presence on the field without having to retreat the squad to replenish all members and still be able to soak up a little bit more of damage. This trait would only aplly to the WS squad it self and its purpose its for not having to spend time healing rather having the "feel" of replacing the expendable loses, also help to avoid an extremely quick drop of models when the squad has droped some health.

I think that also having a suport unit like WS could be very beneficial for multiple GM builds and will reflect very well the filosofy of large infantry compositions of the IG army, also by having a strong suport unit could help overcome the extreme vulnerability of IG blobs making them more viable.

In adition to the pasive aura, the WS squad would get an ability; diferent for each IG comander. This ability is meant to control melee units with IG since without the sentilel or aditional suport (like catas) IG blobs are still very susceptible to mele units.

All these abilities would cost some red to use (much like ork squads i was thinking like 25 red to use and about 1 min cooldown or so)

Comissar Lord: The WS squad gets the Fix bayonets! ability wich would significanly increase the melee resistance of WS as well as the melee damage helping to stay on the field while still giving suport to surrounding GM.

Lord General:The WS squad gets the First rank fire, Second rank fire ability which would Insta supress an enemy squad (much like love the dakka) and increase rate of fire of WS for a small duration of time making their damage output roughly equivalent or slightly superior to a GM squad.

Inquisitor : The WS squad gets the Fiery determination ability which grants the WS squad a fire shield that damages enemy units in melee. Same ability as the sword of flame from the socceror.

Sumary:

Avaible T1
Cost: 350 req and maybe some power cost (25?)
Members : (12-15) Each member has less health than GM and infantry armour and the squad size i was thinking.
Reinforce: (?) WS squad is meant to be extremely disposable so i think this squad should had a 4/1 reinfocement ratio much like GM and in order to perhaps avoid extremely good sinergy w/ bunkers or chimeras i was thinking of adding a small power cost to the reinfoce perhaps something like 20req 2 power. Also this would cause the players to manually reinforce those squads not using overwatch since this would cause an extremely power bleed.
Upgrades:

T2 they get the comissar leader upgrade which increases each models heath and also gives the squad the sumary execution ability for stoping retreats (much like GM)

T3:they get the vox operator leader upgrade which grants the Send in the next wave! ability (40 red) which reinforces in the field all fallen WS models

Abilities: Comander especific one (Active), Resistance aura (Pasive), Stand firm (Active), Self healing aura (Pasive), Send in the next wave! (Active)

Note that i havent put values for anithing since the goal of my wall of text is for sharing my idea not for giving especific details about how exactly would work.

wauw love the amount of ideas you came up with, But i still think that i would prefer a sentinel over a WS squad because i don't think a WS squad would be as good in handeling melee squad as a sentinal with that stomp ability. I was thinking more in this direction:the ability to force units to attack the WS squad

P.S:but this is just my opinion

Orkfaeller wrote:Not commenting on balance, but I certainly wont complain about more commander specific units.
I think having a ( more ) cannon fodder unit for IG, like Whiteshields or a Penal Legion unit would be very noice.

Yeah, it's not enough that GM die like flies and give off tons of red - let's introduce a unit which serves no other purpose thank to die a lot, run off from the field quickly and make sure your opponent can spam globals.

Lag wrote:

Orkfaeller wrote:Not commenting on balance, but I certainly wont complain about more commander specific units.
I think having a ( more ) cannon fodder unit for IG, like Whiteshields or a Penal Legion unit would be very noice.

Yeah, it's not enough that GM die like flies and give off tons of red - let's introduce a unit which serves no other purpose to die a lot, run off from the field quickly and make sure your opponent can spam globals.

Abit hyperbole without knowing the specifics on a unit stats & values.

Lag wrote:Yeah, it's not enough that GM die like flies and give off tons of red - let's introduce a unit which serves no other purpose thank to die a lot, run off from the field quickly and make sure your opponent can spam globals.

Nobody stops us from assigning a minimal red/XP bounty for them or something to that effect.
Well, you get the idea.

I am glad IG are being looked at and it is heartening to hear good players talking about the obvious reasons why IG suffer. Tired of hearing people say IG dont suck your NOOB. No IG are broken the bleed as far as i can tell and as i have always said high Tier 2 power cost is whats killing them. Also Krakrins in Tier 3 although a cool unit have never really got off the ground and actually in my opinion further add to IG issues.

Kraskin are expensive to but quite costly to reinforce and by Tier 3 the enemy has one hit wipe squads that can kill them instantly same can be said for most globals and it is tiring babysitting delicate units.

I honestly feel that IG on a whole needs adjusting for Tier 2 power consumption. Also bare in mind that if you are IG you will bleed SM players in particular can avoid any bleed turtle and hit tier 3 with minimal units and get out a pred to ruin your day.

Another good but delicate unit are Storm Troopers. To many units that are small in size and die easily. May i add 40 Req per Storm Trooper! I feel that GM needs adjustig in Bleed costs.

Adding a Tank to Tier 2 Would be IMO the best advice i can give for IG something to counter hard as nails Walkers. The Sent has MAJOR Pathing issues if the designer reads my post i was wondering would it be possible to make the sent ignore your own infantry and walk over through them?

I've said it in another thread before, IG need a T2 light tank.

Give them the Hellhound with the option to upgrade to a Bane Wolf or Devil Dog.

appiah4 wrote:I've said it in another thread before, IG need a T2 light tank.

Give them the Hellhound with the option to upgrade to a Bane Wolf or Devil Dog.

Devil dog kind of makes sense when I think about it. Range on a purely melta tank should be enough of a factor to make the thing not quite T3 material as "real" tanks are.

What Hellhound should be about? Maybe slower Banewolf without snare, would that be ok?

Immolation-type ability can probably be granted to HH, with ability_flamer damage type, not melta obviously. HP can probably be left the same.

Not sure how that would affect GM flamers though. Probably not much at all.

Well, and if anything, we can always leave BW variant unique to Inq, although deep striking already upgraded tank will be more powerful anyways.

appiah4 wrote:I've said it in another thread before, IG need a T2 light tank.

Give them the Hellhound with the option to upgrade to a Bane Wolf or Devil Dog.

If it is really needed then:

1) Someone is working on a Griffon model.
Easy to develop it as a close range/assault artillery vehicle.

2) There is a model for Unarmored-Sentinel.
We can make these as normal Sentinel and the actual model for the Sentinel is a Tier 2 upgrade that decrease movement speed but giving them HP and change type of armor, making it a more tank-like vehicle.
Giving it Extra weapons option like Autocannon or Flamer is an option to reinforce this role.

What is the chimera?

Transport Vehicle with good Anti-Infantry Support?

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Discreet wrote:Transport Vehicle with good Anti-Infantry Support?

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Yes, on a race with the best overall-cheap AV.

-Best lascannon (50% damage reduction,fastest fire rate in the game)
-Can quickly get melta stromtroopers with a melta bomb,meltas and infiltration
-Ogryns are really underrated, they take on alot of melee squads and provide Heavy melee
-All of the IG heroes have an AV weapon.
-Manticores
-Sentinels Missiles.

Definally they don't need anything else, oh and of course the best T3 tank.

Fair enough. As it is I find myself nowadays getting either Stormtroopers for AV or Manti for blobs before going T3 mainly because 2 Plasma GM, 1 Missile Sent and 1 Support unit(HWT,Catachans,Spotters) is solid enough.

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Loving the upgrade for sents idea. Would be cool having an armoured sent with an autocannon/flamer/lascannon. Would be similar to a typical walker but would substitute melee and toughness for speed.

I personally think that the missile launcher is good enough. Wouldn't mind a Rhino-esque upgrade that gives Sentinel vehicle armor though.

Sentinel would be more like a small tank than anything else at that point.

Sentinel can mount Bolter too.

Anyway, if done cleverly, this could be a difficult choice for the IG players, in a good way.

Have I the micro to take advantage of the fast and infantry-dismembering Light Sentinel and so i buy the missile launcher?
Or i prefer to have a more slow and robust Armoured Sentinel (with more assault oriented weapons if we choise to give it new weapons), which can pontentially do less damage but it's a safer option?

Even with no new weapons, an agile Sentinel can poke and make better shot with the missiles than a slow one, so be able to transform it in an Armoured Sentinel will not be a no-brainer option.

These are the kind of choices that can improve the gameplay if done right.

I think the following addition could be interesting for advanced tier sentinels:

Upgrade: Armoured Sentinel.
It greatly increases the armor and health of the sentinel, but reduces its speed and can no longer uncap points.

This would represent the onboard Armoured Sentinels, and would make them more useful, since once you reach T2 or T3 they tend to be pretty vulnerable.

I think a vehicle-armour upgrade for the Sent in T2 as an alternative to the missle launcher would be kinda nice, but it also sounds like something that could destroy the balance.

Since armoured Sent idea is indeed basically a small tank, we're back to "T2 tank for IG" discussion. Ace has raised some good points and they are probably worth addressing.

If anything, upgraded Sent would be more significant change than previously mentioned Hellhound addition, what's with the former being just an upgrade to already exising and deployed unit (may be fixed though).

Another small thing is that there are already significant incentives for IG to get Sents, and now there's also this...

Sicne you guys are so deep into the ig topic, what about you create a thread about ig ?:D

Im srry to say. but the whiteshield idea is a nice on but wont fix any of the problems suffered by ig. they look like theyll serve no purpose whatsoever we need t2 addressed not a shitty t1 unit that will serve no purpose. ty

you can stick a flamer on a sent

Some great ideas about the armoured sent mentioned up there which I want to voice support for.

Also, I'm trying to think outside the box as much as possible to be interesting. Whiteshields could be extremely cheap, quick to build, and quick/cheap to reinforce, but with very low damage. Perhaps they can build something from which they (and only they) can reinforce to promote staying power, and to really provide a proper meatshield. (Maybe they can be built from bunkers?) Would mean the enemy would have to work round this big meatshield to get to more valuable units, and the whiteshields could also be hurled at the enemy to tie up in melee (while reinforcing constantly for cheap). However overuse of the unit will lead to bleed after a while, so it would be important only to use at the right times when supporting troops can take advantage of this.

I think the ability to stay on the field, rather than shooting and running is important, as it has been said before somewhere on this thread. The unit could also tie up other units or draw suppression. Very grimdark-IG-meatgrinder.

And a far-out idea, and I'm just spitballin' here, maybe give the mortar spotter team a big artillery strike similar to the manti's storm eagle, which could be bought in later tiers. Would make it effective in late game and offer an alternative/replacement/I don't know what to the manticore. Could be less powerful but yeah.

Cheah18 wrote:And a far-out idea, and I'm just spitballin' here, maybe give the mortar spotter team a big artillery strike similar to the manti's storm eagle, which could be bought in later tiers. Would make it effective in late game and offer an alternative/replacement/I don't know what to the manticore. Could be less powerful but yeah.

this already exists. they have a Heavy mortar in tier 3. Not exactly what you said but it exists