2.2 preview

[dance commander]

Plasma Gun upgrade for Stormtrooper now unlock "Overcharged Plasma Shot"
"Overcharged Plasma Shot" - Toggle ability , increases(nerf) the reload speed of the plasma guns by 100% (Figures needed) but each shot now knockbacks the target.

I can already see the "Overcharged Plasma Shot" toggle effect on single target entities like commanders.

[Kvek]

Can you please do a Blood Ravens scheme with Gabriel as FC ?:)

[Lag]

@Lag

The cost of Brood Nest is increased in Elite vs Retail (as well as more pop), but gained HP regen.

Thanks. Still, my point remains...
I understand what Cael is saying, but still not convinced. Luckily, that is what the beta is for - trying shit out.

Any thoughts on the target priorities Lulgrim?

[Caeltos]

Plasma Gun upgrade for Stormtrooper now unlock "Overcharged Plasma Shot"
"Overcharged Plasma Shot" - Toggle ability , increases(nerf) the reload speed of the plasma guns by 100% (Figures needed) but each shot now knockbacks the target.

I can already see the "Overcharged Plasma Shot" toggle effect on single target entities like commanders.

The goal is just to add knockback that occurs roughly only once every 10 seconds or so. Hench the increased reload. Or, rate of fire inbetween shots.

Could you go into more detail why subjugate, which has already been hit, now makes the unit invulnerable to all damage? This nerf with no price reduction?

Since you're experimenting with new things like squad leaders for Tyranids and a GK revamp isn't this the perfect time to try and make catas not act in a stupid, illogical way? Everyone who knows what the fuck they're talking about in that thread says that devils should bleed like everything else. In fact it's only IG players, who think it's ok for everyone else to take huge losses overextending whilst they don't get punished for it, who disagree.

Well, the subjugate is a two-trick pony. On one hand, you're completely immune to all damage, ensuring you can maximize the damage potency of the squad, and at the same time- you're eliminating some of the "cheese" potential. I don't expect all of it to be gone, there's always some cleverhead that will figure something out. But regardless, it might tone it down a bit.

As for the Catachans, we'll do something that Lulgrim suggested on that topic.

[Commissar Yarrick]

Not to mention Commissar Claw. promised while back by Caeltos in one of his 2.2 notes when there were about 9 or 10 beta versions of the mod (Of course all the evidence is gone due the fact that the old forums are gone now.).

Still would like to hear what is the issue. And I have heared the photoshop story but that is folly. There is a mod for it and it just needs to be implemented. Or simply just added.

I said send files. Alternatively, STFU. Another post like this and you will be banned for being an idiot.

I do apologise for upsetting you but I really had not heard about the claw so I wanted this out of the way. Thank you for clearing out the mist.

After further investigation I noticed your reply on the claw subject on prevous posts in 2.1.1 builds. However I was too nub not to check for the response so the joke is on me. Silly me

[Commissar Yarrick]

Not to mention Commissar Claw. promised while back by Caeltos in one of his 2.2 notes when there were about 9 or 10 beta versions of the mod (Of course all the evidence is gone due the fact that the old forums are gone now.).

Still would like to hear what is the issue. And I have heared the photoshop story but that is folly. There is a mod for it and it just needs to be implemented. Or simply just added.

I said send files. Alternatively, STFU. Another post like this and you will be banned for being an idiot.

I do apologise for upsetting you but I really had not heard about the claw so I wanted this out of the way. Thank you for clearing out the mist.

After further investigation I noticed your reply on the claw subject on prevous posts in 2.1.1 builds. However I was too nub not to check for the response so the joke is on me. Silly me

As for the claw I found the mod where the claw is used in and that is found here http://www.moddb.com/mods/great-hammer/images/claw

It is called "Great Hammer" mod for DAwn of war 2 Retribution. Will this suffice or will I dig the file out for you if I can?

[Ar-Aamon]

The GK changes look interesting, especially the Storm Troopers. The LRC nerf is needed as well. But I have question concerning the Paladins. What's the idea behind the inspiration buff reworking (To be clear, the old buff is more than mean so I appreciate a change in this matter)? I mean as GK you can get health regeneration with the LRC too. Furthermore it gives you the needed suppression for GK. And what's the deal with the increased courage? Is this for suppression resistance (like the Avatar) or has it further benefits (tbh, I don't know the exactly mechanics of courage)? And finally yeah, do they get now a health increase because they lose in fact 10% of their health?

[Floid]

Thanks for try to solve the problems with gates, and thanks for experimenting with nids.

[Lulgrim]

Can you please do a Blood Ravens scheme with Gabriel as FC ?:)

Well yes easily but is the FC head enough to justify a chapter?

Any thoughts on the target priorities Lulgrim?

They should be working as it is... as I have said before, the priority is set by weapon family, all lascannon type weapons have the same setting, it is not weapon-specific. If it's not working for some weapons, I have no clue why. Maybe Thomas could figure it out.

Will this suffice or will I dig the file out for you if I can?

If you want to do something, try to get a permission for using it in Elite. Otherwise we must make our own (at some point).

[Kvek]

Can you please do a Blood Ravens scheme with Gabriel as FC ?:)

Well yes easily but is the FC head enough to justify a chapter?
[

Scout sergeant-Cyrus head , Tacs sergeant-tarkus and maybe some cool models for devs etc if there are some

[dance commander]

It saddens me that there are no changes to retreat damage modifiers on single target abilities like flesh hook, hotw,inspire terror etc.

[Lulgrim]

Logged some changes that are now applied.

[Cyris]

• Webway Gate ability/unload hotkeys still swap when units enter or leave
• I've seen Dark Reaper barrage do basically no damage to stationary vehicles at least twice now. Nerfing the CD while bringing to T2 isn't going to change the units role from "against SM only" to something better! Plz consider damage tweaks paired with different damage type (inferno bolters?) The unit is slow, fragile and has no abilities worth the investment, but does absurd damage against 2 armor types, and crap to everything else. Drastic changes need to be made, not incremental steps like these.
• With the great Brightlance change on Wraithlord, can the VC fex get looked at?
• 75 seems like a lot for Infestation towers when compared side-by-side to Webways new XP value
• Manticore buffs = ?!?

[Nuclear Arbitor]

Not to mention Commissar Claw. promised while back by Caeltos in one of his 2.2 notes when there were about 9 or 10 beta versions of the mod (Of course all the evidence is gone due the fact that the old forums are gone now.).

Still would like to hear what is the issue. And I have heared the photoshop story but that is folly. There is a mod for it and it just needs to be implemented. Or simply just added.

I said send files. Alternatively, STFU. Another post like this and you will be banned for being an idiot.

the idea was that the ork claw would be used, hence why he keeps asking. is this not possible?

EDIT: just realized i missed two pages of responses.

[Torpid]

Lol @ arbitor, you nearly throw yourself into a pit of fire there.

@Cyris - Just because a unit isn't used in every single MU doesn't make it UP. This rule of thumb is the reason why we currently have WG that are ridiculous for IG to battle, yet still nobody uses them in any other MU (except sometimes nids, in combination with a falcon). Dark reapers are fine how they are, they are a niche unit that is there to give eldar some ability against ogryns other than suppression and to help them stop terminators which before were quite frankly uncontested by any individual eldar unit in any way, and who could actually tank the damage of the entire eldar army quite successfully. A barrage of WS fire (with exarch) does about 50 damage to SHI...

Regarding the manticore I can see how/why this could be controversial, the unit is very good, despite what people say, at taking down vehicles. However I would like to point out to you that IG lack a artillery unit other than the manticore- no 0 power plasma devs. So in order to counter a plasma dev + dev or multiple shurikens behind shield the only real course of action is to get a manticore. Manticores really don't do much to blobs of infantry as they can easily dodge it at a decent distance or simply retreat at close taking no losses. I think this is just one part of the inevitable shuffling of the IG economy that we should, and will see in the near future. The necessity of all upgrades to t1 squads, including the sentinel which inevitable dies in t2 and the purchase of stormtroopers on top of 2 of the three: ogryns,chimera,manticore really messes up IG because it means they rarely get to t3. This is also why purgatus got a price reduction, it is the case that IG also have a requisition centric economy come late t2 (t3 wargears = lots of req, lemans = lots of req, kasrkins = lots of req), however before that it is more power centred (100 power for manticore, 120 for ogryns, all those GM/catachans/sent upgrades require lot's of power).

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Updated the Mark of Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine visuals with new models

The current MoT CSM and the MoT AC models are enough good, IMHO. On the other hand, the MoK CSM and MoK AC models needs more love. Except for the awesome Khorne helmet, they are using the rare and epic CSM armor model.

Sternguard Kraken Round dps against Heavy Infantry & Super Heavy increased from 18 dps to 22

Even if I see it was necessary to increase a bit the damage to make this ammo type worth over Vengeance rounds against HI and SHI, I’m a bit worried for the SM vs Chaos matchup with this change and the Vanguard one.

Vanguards now have 1800 starting health from 1600. Level value from 15% to 10%

IMHO in 2.1 was a strategical upgrade, because even if they obtain power_melee damage weapons they lose the levels gained, which include the health. In 2.2 it seems is going to be a no-brainer upgrade against HI and SHI races.

Hunter-Killer missile cooldown reduced from 90 to 60 seconds

ATM it’s a good ability which comes for free with the unit. Also, SM have enough good AV and i don't see neccesary reduce this ability CD.

- Unending Purge while in-effect grants 20% damage resistance
- Blessed Aegis Health regeneration increased from 0.25 to 0.35

WTF? The new buff to Unending Purge is unnecessary IMHO. Currently, the BC is really tough with the Unending Purge + Blessed Aegis combo.

Seriously, in the new patch for 300 req 65 energy with the Nemesis Sword + Blessed Aegis + Unending Purge you are going to have a 1100 HP commander immune to suppression and weapon_knockback, with 40 power_melee damage and decent ranged damage, with 0.35 hp regeneration increase all the time plus an additional 0.5 hp regeneration when his life drops below 50%. Also, when he has 50% or less health he increases his speed by 1 and receives 20% less damage. Oh, and all this without having in mind the ” We are the Hammer!” Enhanced Edition, with his AOE buff with -25% damage taken, the 1.5 speed increase and the increased charge distance for 15 seconds.

Would you imagine the pressure that the BC could do with this build?

- Nemesis Sword cost reduced from 100/25 to 100/20
- Nemesis Sword dps increased from 33 to 40

Overbuffed. Reduce the cost but keep the weapon intact or increase the DPS, but keep the current cost, but not both at the same time.

#Grey Knight Rhino cost reduced from 250/25 to 180/20
#Grey Knight Rhino upgrades increased to compensate the price reduced on the Rhino
#Grey Knight Rhino Health reduced down to 650 Health. Vehicle type health unchanged.

Good change to increase the GK mobility in T1, and with the health reduced is going to force to the GK to watch out a bit more the Rhino, and not simply driving in front of the arc of the HWT. But I’m not sure how this change in T2 and T3, because it’s ironical, but the old 900 hp SHI armor Rhino with Lascannon have more possibilities to survive against Tanks than the 500 hp vehicle armor Rhino with Lasscannon. Also, it was cheaper.

Stormtrooper Invis replaced with "Mine-Kit" (Or Something) for 60/15 that allows the Stormtroopers to place mines, supresses and stuns the targets for 5 seconds. 3s build time, and 20s cooldown. Tier 1

This is going to give a more defensive play and could have good synergy with the GK AV and ranged damage.

# Reduced the range on the Land Raider Crusader Hurricane Bolters slightly
# Land Raider Crusader Health reduced from 3500 to 3250

I would like to see even a lower health. In 2vs2 and 3vs3 maybe it’s not such a gigantic issue, but destroy a 3500 HP vehicle armor unit who can counter half of his counters in ranged combat and who have the support of the enemy army in 1vs1 it’s almost always an impossible mission. But well, let’s see how high it’s the Bolters range decrease.

Paladin inspiration buff reworked - Now increases health regeneration by 2.5 of all nearby squads and increases courage by 100%.

I'm not very sure how is this buff going to work. Is going to Increase the HP regeneration by 2.5 times OR is going to increase the HP regeneration in 2.5 hp\s OR increases the HP regeneration by 2.5?

Icon of Khorne health restore from 2% to 2.5%

IIRC, the Icon of Khorne has always give 1% total health restore per hit, not 2%.

Subjugated units now become invulnerable to all damage

If now the subjugated units is going to be invulnerable, I suggest a bit increase of the ability duration.

Banshee damage on retreating units reduced by furthermore 5%

Sigh… Again, people aren’t complaining because the Banshees do great melee damage against retreating HI squads. People are complaining because the Banshees can use the retreating squads as public transport across half map, not only chasing them but reaching them and attacking them

# Webway Gates experience increased from 50 to 150
# Webway Gates build time increased from 15 to 25

No problem solved here. Eldar still are going to have very cheap map control and they aren’t going to suffer the retreat cons. These changes only are going to affect noob players which puts the webway gates in the middle of thr battle or in the middle of usual ways.

Wraithlord Brightlance now has 100% fire on the move from 50%.

Overbuffed. Even if the damage it's relatively low, on the other hand the Wraithlord don't receive any penalties in melee combat, unlike MoT Chaos Dread, Multi Melta Dread....

Artillery Spotter Squad Incinerate Call-in increases in damage now with upgrades

How many is going to be increased the damage? IIRC the incendiary shell do good damage ATM.

Reduced the health of the Infestation Towers from 450(?) to 250
# Experience from killing Infestation Towers from 50 to 75
# Infestation Towers no longer apply to Carnifexes and Swarmlord

I especially like the third change. As I said like 2 or 3 times, the Infestation Towers should give a more swarmy build, without synapse bombs AKA Warrior buffs, not a “cheap speed increase buff for all the army”

Hormagaunt can now be upgraded with a "Warrior Brood" in T3 (Adrenal Gland)
# Termagant can now be upgraded with a "Warrior Brood" in T3 (Venom Cannon)

Even if I dislike the idea, it could be interesting.

[Chaos Librarian]

Well, the subjugate is a two-trick pony. On one hand, you're completely immune to all damage, ensuring you can maximize the damage potency of the squad, and at the same time- you're eliminating some of the "cheese" potential. I don't expect all of it to be gone, there's always some cleverhead that will figure something out. But regardless, it might tone it down a bit.

Caeltos, if you're implying that this is a buff and a nerf at the same time, let me assure that that is not the case. This is strictly a nerf, there is no "buff". There are two cases to consider. First are really beefy elite infantry units like nobs and termies who can shrug off "friendly fire" when subjugated and still retain their combat efficiency. Plus these models are expensive so a good player won't want to take down their own terminator models with plasma tacs, for example. Then there are glass cannon units (i.e. banshees). Since banshees are so fragile, a good player won't shoot his own fragile units when they're subjugated, instead they will stun/suppress/knock back to enlongate the engagement until subjugation wears off. In both cases, the subjugated unit taking "friendly fire" damage is not an issue at all. Now, if you made subjugated squads immune to stun/knock back/suppression instead of immune to damage, that might actually be a small buff to subjugation, but that seems a little too radical, at least to me.

Meanwhile, all the countless tricks that were available when subjugated units take normal damage (i.e. releasing a bloodraging kdread on it, nading the squad itself, ground-attacking it with blastmaster shots, attacking it with autarch nades/manticore strikes if you have an eldar/ig teammate, and of course, putting an empyreal abyss on top of it, and many more) would disappear with this new change to subjugation. If you want to call these tactics "cheese," I would strongly disagree with you, but hey, this is your mod and that's your opinion so I can abide by that. But under no circumstances is making a subjugated squad immune to damage a "buff" to subjugation. That much I want to make clear.

So the question is, if you're still willing to follow through with this nerf, what can we expect to compensate for it? Reverting the ability duration back to 15 seconds maybe? Or a price reduction? But, it already got a price reduction so maybe that's not the best idea.

All in all, I would say that making subjugated squads immune to damage is a pretty severe nerf to the ability that cannot easily be compensated for.

[Raffa]

Well, the subjugate is a two-trick pony. On one hand, you're completely immune to all damage, ensuring you can maximize the damage potency of the squad, and at the same time- you're eliminating some of the "cheese" potential. I don't expect all of it to be gone, there's always some cleverhead that will figure something out. But regardless, it might tone it down a bit.

Sorry but I can't buy that. The damage potency of the squad is always maximised as good players will not shoot their own subjugated unit - there is no point bleeding yourself and iirc I have seen only one case of a player deliberately targeting, with the intention of killing, their own subjugated unit; and that was when it was capping a VP at the end of a game.

Has this change been playtested in a real game yet? Because I have a strong suspicion you would see this wargear is practically useless if you do. It will become a dead weight for the Sorc.

If the Subjugate + Abyss combo is the issue then surely you can tweak it so that subjugated units take less damage from nukes, or maybe just less Heavy Melee damage to stop the insane synergy with Abyss.

Meanwhile, all the countless tricks that were available when subjugated units take normal damage (i.e. releasing a bloodraging kdread on it, nading the squad itself, ground-attacking it with blastmaster shots, attacking it with autarch nades/manticore strikes if you have an eldar/ig teammate, and of course, putting an empyreal abyss on top of it, and many more) would disappear with this new change to subjugation. If you want to call these tactics "cheese," I would strongly disagree with you, but hey, this is your mod and that's your opinion so I can abide by that. But under no circumstances is making a subjugated squad immune to damage a "buff" to subjugation. That much I want to make clear.

I would put money on this change to subjugation being made exclusively to stop "sub-abyssing" units like nobs and termies, which is a guaranteed wipe if you are a good player (ie get the timing right). Appreciate your concerns for the other potential combos that might suffer, but I play Sorc myself so let's be realistic here. The other combos are very rarely (if never) seen and honestly I have never seen a hugbot, autarch nades or manti strike on a subjugated unit, especially with the new duration.

*EDIT* +1 to what Nikhel said

[Ace of Swords]

I mean, sub + abyss is abit cheese but fair at the same time, after all it's 500 red that you use and it's something that you can do a maximum of 1 time per game, 2 if you didn't use the red anywhere else which is very rare as sorc considering how useful his globals are.

It's also not as easy to pull off as it seems, you need to place the abyss before and then sub the desidered unit, you have to somewhat trick your opponent to move towards you where the sorc is safe to do so.

Oh and yeah i agree with nikhel on pretty much everything.

[Alaric]

Have you considered moving vanguards to tier 2 instead of increasing their health, would give sm a dedicated melee unit in tier 2 and you wont have to increase their health cause this should give them plenty of time to get lvls so by the time they reach tier 2 they are more beefy, you can always make the power fist a tier 3 upgrade

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i don't care how hard to pull of something is if it's still bullshit when it works.

[Kvek]

Have you considered moving vanguards to tier 2 instead of increasing their health, would give sm a dedicated melee unit in tier 2 and you wont have to increase their health cause this should give them plenty of time to get lvls so by the time they reach tier 2 they are more beefy, you can always make the power fist a tier 3 upgrade

Vanguard in t3 are to beat (ranged) terminators, deal with HI/SHI and still they have the same role as ASM but they can't use melta bomb which is extremly useful.
In t2 i would never go for vans since the melta can be critical considering that the enemy will have a vehicle.

[Kvek]

I mean, sub + abyss is abit cheese but fair at the same time, after all it's 500 red that you use and it's something that you can do a maximum of 1 time per game, 2 if you didn't use the red anywhere else which is very rare as sorc considering how useful his globals are.

It's also not as easy to pull off as it seems, you need to place the abyss before and then sub the desidered unit, you have to somewhat trick your opponent to move towards you where the sorc is safe to do so.

Oh and yeah i agree with nikhel on pretty much everything.

Not easy to pull off ?

http://youtu.be/kKV1RtijmSc?t=21m5s

I know he was lucky that the chain didn't pull one of the models out but still.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

that particular spot demonstrates both how powerful the inner circle is and how shitty the outer one is.

[Ace of Swords]

I mean, sub + abyss is abit cheese but fair at the same time, after all it's 500 red that you use and it's something that you can do a maximum of 1 time per game, 2 if you didn't use the red anywhere else which is very rare as sorc considering how useful his globals are.

It's also not as easy to pull off as it seems, you need to place the abyss before and then sub the desidered unit, you have to somewhat trick your opponent to move towards you where the sorc is safe to do so.

Oh and yeah i agree with nikhel on pretty much everything.

Not easy to pull off ?

http://youtu.be/kKV1RtijmSc?t=21m5s

I know he was lucky that the chain didn't pull one of the models out but still.

That was good positioning, sorc out or range aswell as the abyss blocked the rest of the ork army, plus the nobs where quite massed up if only 1 model was out of the inner circle the squad would have survived.

[Alaric]

Have you considered moving vanguards to tier 2 instead of increasing their health, would give sm a dedicated melee unit in tier 2 and you wont have to increase their health cause this should give them plenty of time to get lvls so by the time they reach tier 2 they are more beefy, you can always make the power fist a tier 3 upgrade

Vanguard in t3 are to beat (ranged) terminators, deal with HI/SHI and still they have the same role as ASM but they can't use melta bomb which is extremly useful.
In t2 i would never go for vans since the melta can be critical considering that the enemy will have a vehicle.

If the enemy where to deploy a vehicle then of course you wouldn't get vanguards that's like getting a rocket launcher on tacs when enemy has only infantry, if you where in a situation where you would face lets say Ogryns vanguards would be the way to go since assault marines get annihilated by any dedicated melee unit, plus you can take down a vehicle without the melta bomb las dev, tacs.

[Raffa]

@Alaric

I'll try to be polite here..

A) Vanguards are not dedicated melee
B) Your suggestion would probably break the SM/CSM matchup
C) Plz just stahp you don't know what you're talking about

[Alaric]

@Alaric

I'll try to be polite here..

A) Vanguards are not dedicated melee
B) Your suggestion would probably break the SM/CSM matchup
C) Plz just stahp you don't know what you're talking about

I am merely stating an opinion if the developer of the mod considers that vanguards are not appropriate in tier 2 then fine it is his choice last time i checked the forum is meant to post suggestion that was merely my two cents, to say that i don't know what i am talking about considering you never played against me or seen me played is little bit how should of a brainless comment, forgive my English it is not my first language.

[Vapor]

Have the hotkeys for Lootas been adjusted yet? IIRC it's still Q for infiltrate and W for WAAGH which is retarded since Q is WAAGH for every other squad.

[Galvatom]

[i] Chaos
Touch of Nurgle duration reduced from 30 to 25 seconds
Icon of Khorne health restore from 2% to 2.5%
Subjugated units now become invulnerable to all damage
Mark of Nurgle Predator now slowly regenerates health

How come Chaos have had hardly anything done to them for the better? They've had really minimal buffs that won't make any difference and quite reasonable nerfs. They're by far the weakest army and now they're losing their one thing that can deal with Nobs, Terminators, Seer Council etc. What the hell?