Dawn of War Codex

Bahamut wrote:

Helios wrote:Just for kicks, I'd like to see ogryns stay exactly the same, but be given vehicle armor. Aside from literally being impervious to snipers, I think given their hp it probably wouldn't be so bad. Yeah I know it would never happen but it'd still be interesting to see the results.

No man, that'd be way too OP, a 25% hp buff is something, making them immortal is something else lol

Psst, Bahamut, I think he might be joking

I really, REALLY hope he is.

I'm NOT joking but I also know this wouldn't be balanced in the least. I just think it wouldn't be AS bad as you're making it out to be. Ogryns only have 425 hp after all. Even if you calculated for effective health with vehicle armor against piercing and plasma and melta and power melee damages i still don't think it would come all that close to the HP that Assault Terms have. It's really just to see how much tankier they would get. That's why I said "Just for kicks".

That Torpid Gamer wrote:I think the point Cheeah may be trying to make is that even in the most optimal of situations in which to get ogryns they still nevertheless bleed quite substantially.

This is indeed exactly what I meant, thanks. In using them properly, without fatal mistakes, they are still likely to bleed. Particularly in tier 3, which is what a Bullgryn up/side-grade would be useful for. Not properly looking after your walker would be such a fatal mistake.

Aaand any sort of seriousness towards Helios just went out the window.

Dark Riku wrote:Aaand any sort of seriousness towards Helios just went out the window.

Yeah, even if you disclaim with "just for kicks", I don't think many will take you seriously with "Ogryns should have vehicle armour".

Having said that, maybe we should just replace Heretics with dreadnoughts. There's your real vehicle armour.

Wow you guys wanna act more like pretentious jerks? At no point did I say they "should" be given vehicle armor. No more than they "should" get a bullgryns upgrade. It isn't a balance suggestion. It's a hypothetical situation simply to see how much less they'd bleed. Here i'll spell it out again: H-Y-P-O-T-H-E-T-I-C-A-L. As in, it won't happen, but i'd still wanna test the results, which I still don't think would be as ridiculous as it might sound. Or I could be wrong, and they really would be unkillable.

Dark Riku wrote:Aaand any sort of seriousness towards Helios just went out the window.

I lost any seriousness towards you ages ago. Don't you have a SM topic to go be biased about?

Helios, if you would like to test your 'hypothetical' situation then open up the files, fiddle the numbers around, and try it yourself. Suggesting something 'just for kicks' isn't going to convince people to spend their time making it for you.

On topic: this is a terrible idea. And I agree with Riku.

Priceless

Raffa wrote:Suggesting something 'just for kicks' isn't going to convince people to spend their time making it for you.

I'm sorry but where, exactly, did I try to convince someone to make these changes for me, admitting that it would be an imbalanced idea? Here, i'll even post my original post.

Helios wrote:Just for kicks, I'd like to see ogryns stay exactly the same, but be given vehicle armor. Aside from literally being impervious to snipers, I think given their hp it probably wouldn't be so bad. Yeah I know it would never happen but it'd still be interesting to see the results.

Let's see... "Just for..." "I know it would never happen..." "interesting to see..." nope. I don't think I mentioned anywhere that I want some one to do this for me. Do you just like putting word's in people 's mouths? Are you inferring that I wanted some one to do it? Cause I don't see a single hint of it anywhere. Of course it's a bad idea. I even said "it would never happen" BECAUSE it's a bad idea.

Raffa wrote:Helios, if you would like to test your 'hypothetical' situation then open up the files, fiddle the numbers around, and try it yourself.

And you think I didn't think of this already? I would have but I don't have the technical expertise to do so. I don't think it's worth the trouble to go and spend time on what is already something that's kinda crazy simple for curiosity's sake.

I would be mad, like four mini and retreatable Bloodcrushers running around that AV weapons couldn't hit. I think people are just offended at the very notion of this.

DoW2 players are a sensitive bunch.

I have avoided speaking thus far, but I can't any longer.

That was one of the worst suggestions I've ever heard and I would question the value of even having clearly such an out-of-touch person participate on the forums. Seriously, if you're going to propose something that ridiculous then you're just wasting thread space and there's enough shit and non-shit that we need to read here already.

1800vehicle armour (a dreadnought has 1200) moving around at speed 8.5 that is affected by all those IG buffing abilities? Like. Please, just get out of here!

I thought we were making headway with the Bullgryn discusssion

I think Bullgryns could be a thing, but it looks like so far it is only the animations that are holding back any work on modelling.

Helios wrote:Even if you calculated for effective health with vehicle armor against piercing and plasma and melta and power melee damages i still don't think it would come all that close to the HP that Assault Terms have.

Just thought to point out that they would have roughly twice the effective hp of ATs against plasma and power melee. Melta and heavy melee would still do a decent job against them and ATs would be more resilient against those dmg types. Piercing damage wise they would have something like 4 times the hp of ATs. These calculations are standard AT model versus standard Ogryn model. So the Ogryns would have the bone 'ead's added tankiness which improves the squad's health by 43%... Not to mention leveling bonuses.

I still can't really see why you suggested the idea. Bullgryns would be really useful, but vehicle armour Ogryns are... A little excessive.

It wasn't a serious suggestion. At least to my understanding.

From my ignorance I still think that the normal ogryn attack animation could be a good base. They just smash up and down with their ripper rifles, making new hands for them (maybe with gloves or gauntlets to make it easier) it could look good to smash up and down with a power maul while they hold the shiled in the other hand.

Nurland wrote:It wasn't a serious suggestion. At least to my understanding.

I am not so sure, why would he deny it constantly. Still, bad idea. Very bad.

Swiftsabre wrote:I am not so sure, why would he deny it constantly. Still, bad idea. Very bad.

Cos everyone was laying in to him and no one seems to believe him. I would argue it that much too

I'm with Helios. The poor guy just threw an idea callously out into the wind and had it blow round and hit him in the face.

The response he got was a bit overdone. Sure, if you think it's a bad idea, that's fine - but I agree when he said people were acting pretentious. Saying something like "Oh God, that would be awful!" or some similarly neutral/humorous response would probably be, dare I say - less outright bitchy than trying to belittle the person in question.

The response was like "Dude that was a fucking terrible idea and you should feel bad holy shit what is wrong with you" to a guy who simply advocated a bit of arbitrary experimentation.

Sometimes the most unlikely thing can lead to results, small or large.

I am not really sure whose post/s you have taken that from, because I don't think it came from me. Also, I know it is an idea, but you really can't expect people to say "I have considered carefully all possible outcomes and have decided from this that your theory of Vehicle armour implementation is not sufficiently balanced."

I am not outwardly aggressive when it comes to this point, but you must see that even this idea is ridiculous, the theory is so very broken, but please, if you do fiddle around with numbers, then post a link with a video where you test it.

In the meantime, can we get back to Bullgryns?

Swiftsabre wrote:I am not really sure whose post/s you have taken that from, because I don't think it came from me. Also, I know it is an idea, but you really can't expect people to say "I have considered carefully all possible outcomes and have decided from this that your theory of Vehicle armour implementation is not sufficiently balanced."

I am not outwardly aggressive when it comes to this point, but you must see that even this idea is ridiculous, the theory is so very broken, but please, if you do fiddle around with numbers, then post a link with a video where you test it.

In the meantime, can we get back to Bullgryns?

It wasn't so much directed at you. I don't remember you having posting anything that I disagreed with as harshly.

Swift, I never anywhere said I expected that, and neither did Helios from what I remember. If you find it a funny/silly/etc idea then you can ignore it or you can reply in a non-serious manner.

I wasn't making an argument of whether or not it's a ridiculous idea, nor how it would work or not. I was simply disagreeing to the asshole response he got from a lot of people. If there's anything that has put me off posting on these forums it's that there's quite a few repeat offenders who turn them into Drama of the Day, and quite often over insignificant things like this.

But I worry I might just be another in the minority here with this.

Just to make things clear incase anybody is referencing my post.

My post was not there to serve as a dramatisation as much as it was a STFU and talk about something useful kind of post. I'm pressing for efficiency.

krakza wrote:

Swiftsabre wrote:I am not really sure whose post/s you have taken that from, because I don't think it came from me. Also, I know it is an idea, but you really can't expect people to say "I have considered carefully all possible outcomes and have decided from this that your theory of Vehicle armour implementation is not sufficiently balanced."

I am not outwardly aggressive when it comes to this point, but you must see that even this idea is ridiculous, the theory is so very broken, but please, if you do fiddle around with numbers, then post a link with a video where you test it.

In the meantime, can we get back to Bullgryns?

It wasn't so much directed at you. I don't remember you having posting anything that I disagreed with as harshly.

Swift, I never anywhere said I expected that, and neither did Helios from what I remember. If you find it a funny/silly/etc idea then you can ignore it or you can reply in a non-serious manner.

I wasn't making an argument of whether or not it's a ridiculous idea, nor how it would work or not. I was simply disagreeing to the asshole response he got from a lot of people. If there's anything that has put me off posting on these forums it's that there's quite a few repeat offenders who turn them into Drama of the Day, and quite often over insignificant things like this.

But I worry I might just be another in the minority here with this.

Fair enough, seems logical. A ll I thought at first was that is was a joke. Turns out I was very wrong, so I don't really know where the conversation went from there. Just seemed, like you said, to be a lot of anger. I still think it is absurd

I for one completely see what he meant. He meant, as he's said, that it would be intersting to observe the effect vehicle armour would have on ogryns (I think specifically regarding snipers). Surely the 'just for kicks' made that clear

Vehicle armor on ogryns? No.

Some form of T3 upgrade that'll help 'em scale a little bit better? I'd be willing to check out.

I just see too many problems with vehicle armor even if you adjust the HP values of the models appropriately.

Ogryns scale well enough, they are freaking heavy melee and don't go down in 2 shots even vs imba T3 stuff, especially when said stuff will already have to deal with leman russes and possible kasirskins, all in all they still pose a huge threat to even BBs and Landraiders, and a normal tank won't last more than a few seconds against them.

I don't think anyone seriously suggested we give orgyns vehicle armour in the game.

I disagree, I don't think they do scale well enough, they start to become too easy to bleed for their use.

There's not really anything that will bleed ogryns in t3 that won't bleed them in t2 except for LC termies but they themselves suck vs IG.

Point is, if they're going to be bleeding loads you shouldn't be getting them in the first place.