Pre-Balance preview

[dance commander]

I'd like to know when are we going to see a consistent catachan bleed instead of the broken state they are currently in.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i am. i'm sure there are points in 1v1 maps where they can't be effectively flanked though.

the TM turret is also capable of upgrading to AV. not sure about the PM turret and i know that the mech boy turret cannot.

devs can also be lost due to one engagement although they have an easier time getting out with retreat.

[Dark Riku]

i am from a 3v3 perspective.

~~

the TM turret is also capable of upgrading to AV. not sure about the PM turret and i know that the mech boy turret cannot.

If the walker is there and you have no av ready it is already too late for your turret. Pm turret can upgrade too.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

same thing with wraithguard. turrets are just badly designed.

[Dark Riku]

same thing with wraithguard. turrets are just badly designed.

What? What do wraithgaurd even have to do in this ???? °_O

[Nuclear Arbitor]

instant turret counter, like walkers.

[Ace of Swords]

Turrets are supposed to lock an area in t1, and to be support in t2, otherwise its obviously countered by any vehicle that comes out in t2, but beside that, i have seen some very effective T2 turrets, with a turret behind your back you can actually protect your frontline very well, kind of like you let devastators stay behind to cover your army except that turrets cannot be distrupted by all the KBs that usually come in t2.

Or even AV turrets, iirc the chaos twin-linked lascannon turret has one of the highest AV dps, it's like 3-shot on a pred.

[Dark Riku]

instant turret counter, like walkers.

Made it sound you were comparing wraithgaurd to turrets ~~
Sentences :p

Even then, wraithgaurd are less "instant" counters since anything can tie them up.
(in theory) But we all now banshees will be there.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

instant turret counter, like walkers.

Even then, wraithgaurd are less "instant" counters since anything can tie them up.
(in theory) But we all now banshees will be there.

they kill a turret in one round of firing though and good luck tieing them up first.

still, my issue with turrets is that they are too effective when they work. baring LG or FC with wargear and a flammer they have no hard counters in t1 and some races don't even have soft counters, just units who can kill them in certain situations, usually involving bad turret placement.

they're better than setup teams but currently cost less, both upfront and over time.

[Asmon]

If you're against a hero that can build turret you must deny him the possibility to set one up. If he's able to do so then he certainly outplayed you.

Turrets are a heavy investment in Tier 1, especially TM and PC's since they cannot destroy them to get a refund. They are meant to be decisive whatever happens.

Also level 1 WG don't kill a turret in one volley.

[Dark Riku]

still, my issue with turrets is that they are too effective when they work. baring LG or FC with wargear and a flammer they have no hard counters in t1 and some races don't even have soft counters, just units who can kill them in certain situations, usually involving bad turret placement.

they're better than setup teams but currently cost less, both upfront and over time.

They aren't too effective when they work...
(Unless you keep attacking it from the front ~~)

There are so many more turret counters than those.
Everyone can counter a turret by flanking it.
And some races/heroes have even more options to counter it.

They aren't definitely better than setupteams. Setupteams can switch position.
Theoretically covering more ground. Again, depends on MU.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

if you're allowed to out flank a turret it was badly placed and played.

[Lag]

Eldar
- Webway Gates has been brought up numerous times, even from fairly good eldar players, and they're considering to be really strong. As in terms of design & useage, it's meant to be abit of a risk-factor purchase to some degree, and it's utility is heavily dependant on the size of the maps. The bigger the map, the usual better pay-off you can get.

This might sound somewhat silly but I'm going to give it a go for the sake of maybe sparking an idea somewhat more elegant solution than mine: how about introducing a cloak delay? When the gate is up it is visible, there is an ability to switch to cloaked which is on a 1-2 min cool-down and once the cool-down is done - the player can select it to have it permanently cloaked. Introduces some need to manage them and makes them vulnerable for a period of time.

Despite this idea - what you suggested could prove to solve the problem.

Orks
Shootas are still quite a dominant builds, this is something I'm on the fence of, and not entirely sure on how I want to approach, or I should do infact. I'm stricly basing things on matches/gameplay that the 2x shootas have a generally strong transition compared to other builds. Are the other transition/build orders from other T1 builds not on-par with the shootas, if not - how so, and can it be adjusted from your perspective? Please be detailed on this, and don't just say simplistic sayings, I'm looking for unit compositions (theorize something, also preferably from the opposition player as well)

The fact that Shootas can RAPE certain units in T1 and can punish a retreat with a quick Gen-bash, and can then carry T2 almost on their own (helped by a single Weirdboy or Truck purchase) makes them the safest and least micro-demanding build the Orks can do. My idea from a while ago was to compensate their huge firepower (huge for t1) by simply decreasing their speed once either Big Shoota's or Nobz are upgraded. That way Orks would need to plan their positioning better and they wouldn't be just a-move with the occasional "Aimin' wats dat"

Chaos
Lack of Chaos feedback, there's nothing detailed just yet. Are they ok? Is there anything wrong in general, wargear/globals and such? Would love to hear more on these, since I'm just assuming it's okay here.

The only thing which seems a bit overpowered to me (as an IG player) is the Sorceresses Dark Flames + Teleport into Curse of Tzeentch on retreating units. Not only does it wipe squads - it completely annihilates armies. I'm sure someone will appear with the "well if you let it happen - you deserve it" comment and you would be right - if it wasn't for the Teleport. Of course my units will reach a low health in engagements and no, there is no way to stop the Sorc from warping in out of nowhere and just using this combo to completely wipe my squishy army.

Imperial Guard
Imperial Guard has been having abit of a trouble. I believe this is strongly a cause of the transition/timing adjustments that were made primarily to the sentinel. They've lost alot of their early-potential pressure with it, but I believe it's for the better for the most part. However, I still think the flavorism of strong-early pressure should be mainted slightly to some degree. The Artillery Spotters are most likely being added as a detector unit for IG (Lulz 2x detectors) but again, it brings out some versaility in how IG can be played in their early-game, since they're not going to feel the much need for Catachan in some matchups, where they can sometimes be abit of a drawback more then a beneficial unit. But it varies quite so depending on the matchup itself with the map. The Artillery Spotter are undergoing some substantial changes that will shapen up their useage quite so, and make them more then a one-trick pony. Don't take the phrasing to literal tho, since I'm viewing the documents now myself, and I'm not really obliged to show it just yet, don't expect a quantity of changes that will shake the very foundation of the unit itself to a new level, it's more of the small things that can spice things up in terms of flexibility and utility, more so then the raw performance of the unit itself.

Sounds fun ^_^ The thing I'd like to suggest for the IG are faster HWT setup times as they are painfully slow and vulnerable (and still buggy) for a setup team of a race that requires a lot of positioning to be able to survive.
I still don't think a single Manticore volley should kill the LG Turret, but I can't really do anything about it. I also feel that the Turret itself is a bit too soft for a T2, red-costing turret which more often than not shoots at the ground instead of opponents.

Apart from that, mostly just transition stuff in their gameplay is being looked at , not making any promises, but I've alway felt some of their transitions can be abit akward and sometimes abit of a reminiscence of the past of how some matchups were played.

Exactly what I talked about in the IG topic. Faster HWT setup time or a slightly higher GM base damage might help with this.

Tyranids
Just some changes to the Infestation Pillars probably, nothing that big.

IMHO Doom still needs some adjusting, at least a Paroxysm cool-down increase. It already has a great basic attack, is extremely hard to kill and has some great abilities. I don't see the point of letting it spam the ability which turns expensive heavy infantry and super heavy infantry into jelly.

Space Marines
Make someone actually bother to use Kraken Rounds for the Sternguards, that's about it. And also, the Vanguards are probably going to get some adjustments, since 1600 lvl 1 Vanguards can be abit of a liability to some degree in the late-game. They're quite strong once they get levels tho, so will be abit careful so that they don't achieve a faster snowball potential. Also the pressure-potential of the Whirlwind might go up abit. However, with some changes in mind there might not be a need for it. It depends on how some of the "meta" is going to change, or how people go on about their mid-late game builds and compositions. They're quite the turtle-oriented units, and it might not just be their preference on how they want to play Space Marines. Any thoughts & feedbacks on that?

How about inserting a "frenzy"-like ability for the WW which enables it to shoot rapidly for a short duration? Maybe penalize it afterwards by not shooting at all for a while. I haven't given it much thought as I rarely see it in games, but something like that might make it more usable in the short-but-eventful engagements usual for DoW (or could just make it OP).

Wargears
Again, there hasn't been much mention on wargears, are they alright? Is something still not good enough (Just because it's not used doesn't translate into it being bad) since people are quite too stubborn to change their ordinary playstyles. The people who experiement and give things a spin, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on some of the changed wargears (That were deemed bad or flat out up) and such, feedbacks, moar!

The only thing I could suggest for the IG wargear is to add something else than suppression and knockback immunity for the LG's Stand Firm ability, as it grows to be useless in later tiers. I'd be happy to have something like the FC's ability, which actually reduces ranged fire instead of knockback immunity, or something like that.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

eh, stand firm is great against suppression and that's really what it's intended to counter. didn't know it prevented knockback (i assume weapon) but i know that his last armour also prevents knockback as well as damage received and is quite good.

[Kvek]

Dark Flames+ Curse of Tzeench can really wipe out armies. You have 10 seconds to do it but still that's enough. What about reduce the "time-duration" of this ability to 4 ? or something like that.

[Lag]

eh, stand firm is great against suppression and that's really what it's intended to counter. didn't know it prevented knockback (i assume weapon) but i know that his last armour also prevents knockback as well as damage received and is quite good.

Sure thing. Like I said, as time goes by suppression teams lose importance and this bonus stops being relevant. The "Ranged damage resistance" IS relevant throughout the entire game, even though it is a T1 item for the FC. Whenever I reach T2 with the LG I feel the need to switch armor to something else - this was my only point.

[Dark Riku]

if you're allowed to out flank a turret it was badly placed and played.

You can't place a turret that isn't outflankable everywhere...
Especially not in a useful place.
It would have to be in a corner on JoC. Or in base turret range...

[Dark Riku]

Chaos
Lack of Chaos feedback, there's nothing detailed just yet. Are they ok? Is there anything wrong in general, wargear/globals and such? Would love to hear more on these, since I'm just assuming it's okay here.

Blood letters are just a lil too effective vs (S)HI atm.
Combined with their engage and very safe escape/stall mechanism.
This is mainly coming from a SM PoV though.

I still find the Sorcerer's subjugation an unfair ability.
It just can't do what it does right now. It still pretty much deletes your unit.
Use all abilities, cast nade on self, walk towards enemy base,...
And then they have to retreat through his army again unless you somehow managed to force him of with 1 less (key) unit. In case of Terminators you can usually say byebye

[Ace of Swords]

Dunno i feel like heavy melee bloodletters were fine even with the old worship, they did a balanced damage on HI/SHI i get that chaos players didn't have much of a reason to go to t3 thanks to them, but nowdays with chaos terminators and the change to pred and to worship i think they would be fine.

And yeah sub is kinda lame(when other peeps use it on me ) altrought I use it alot, i just think that you shouldn't be able to use the abilities of the subjugated unit since it really screws over terminators when they burn the tele, but that's not all, you could blow up the painboy itself or waste jump troops jumps/teleports into your army or just sub some incoming banshees and ram them into your enemy with FoF and the warshout.

I feel like that the subjugation spot is more of control things rather than actually giving you a fully functional unit for the time it lasts, it should be used to keep out of combat a key unit but of course if such change would be made it should get a great price nerf and perhaps a range increase.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

You can't place a turret that isn't outflankable everywhere...
Especially not in a useful place.
It would have to be in a corner on JoC. Or in base turret range...

you can make it effectively unflankable by putting it in a narrow location or corner and using your army to cover the flank and support the turret if it gets attacked. a turret is a "no fighting here until t2" unit, which a setup team is not.

[Chaos Librarian]

I absolutely and categorically disagree with riku and ace about sorc subjugation. First of all, sorc is the, if not, the squishiest hero in the game with no shields or hp increasing upgrades. So the first way to deal with subjugation is by trying to kill the sorc during his ability use.

Also, in regards to termies, i understand the teleporting it into 2 x tcsm can be painful to deal with, but purchasing a librarian with gate of infinity is a way around this. And to be honest, a tier 3 ultimate upgrade for a hero that otherwise doesn't add much to tier 3 fights should be pretty powerful.

Also, I've tested it out several times, and guardians and scouts with nades cannot wipe themselves by throwing a nade on their feet.

The main point of subjugation is to use that unit's abilities. So, preventing ability use of a subjugated unit goes against the fundamental idea behind the ability. The game already prevents you from retreating the subjugated squad, so if you couldn't use abilities of subjugated units, subjugation would lose a huge amount of its potential, making it not worth an ultimate tier 3 upgrade.

All in all, when it comes to subjugation, remember that there are many ways around it, the most basic of which is to just kill the sorc. Also, I reiterate, it's a goddamn fucking ultimate tier 3 ability for a hero that doesn't otherwise add much to tier 3 fights. It already got nerfed in terms of its duration (15 seconds to 10 seconds of course, the price got a reduction as well). I do not see any reason whatsoever in nerfing the ability further. Just because sorc can pull off some creative tricks doesn't mean you should nerf the shit out of a hero that's already plenty hard to use.

[Lag]

I wholeheartedly agree. I used to main Sorc and I remember how easily Subjugate is cancelled by simply focusing the Sorc. It goes down in seconds.

[Asmon]

The idea behind subjugation is also to cloack the CS while he is using the ability, with worship.

Also level 1 DA can definitively wipe themselve with a grenade, when there is no warlock. Scouts cannot, I believe even if you manage to get every model next to the nade (what is prevented by the squad formation), the sergeant will still survive. But it does not really matters as a very low hp squad amongst a chaos army has no chance of surviving.

Anyway, I'm actually ok with subjugation. It is extremely strong in teamgames but in 1v1 it is mostly a dead CS guaranteed.

Does it require LoS though? If something this could be changed.

Last point: CS does have a shield, and a good one. It comes with daemonic armor.

[Kvek]

It needs LoS and yes the subjagate is pretty much unfair. Just use deamonic shield behind green cover or just cloak him with worship.

[Raffa]

I absolutely and categorically disagree with riku and ace about sorc subjugation...it's a goddamn fucking ultimate tier 3 ability for a hero that doesn't otherwise add much to tier 3 fights. It already got nerfed in terms of its duration (15 seconds to 10 seconds of course, the price got a reduction as well). I do not see any reason whatsoever in nerfing the ability further. Just because sorc can pull off some creative tricks doesn't mean you should nerf the shit out of a hero that's already plenty hard to use.

Agreed. Completely.

Then again, you're not going to find a chaos player agreeing to further nerf subjugate. This is the classic high-level non-chaos players disagreeing with respective chaos players on a chaos wargear.

[Ace of Swords]

I and probably everyone has dealt with subjugation beign what it is, and as 'counter' to it we are not purchasing any important unit that could fall under it (termies,nobs,council etc).

But yet, in my opinion it is in no way a balanced ability, it's just that everyone got used to it with time.

[Kvek]

I played the sorc for a little while and from all i can just say that it's unfair. The only way you can stop this is to kill the sorc but when he is infiltrated/behind heavy cover (in Deamon shield) It's hard to kill him. If you subjagate a terminator squad and teleport it into ur units it's a very high chance of lossing 2 models or even the whole squad. t3 ultimate ? phase armor is t3 too but it just freezes the unit. Right when it ends you can tele out etc.

[Nurland]

Phase armor affects multiple units including vehicles.

I am fine with the current Subju as I've gotten used to it during the time I have played this game, but I suppose it should be changed somehow. I mean at it's current state it is a bit too good in a hands of a decent player. I'm not suggesting a nerf but maybe reworking the entire ability into something different but extremely useful (I have no suggestions)

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Seriously guys, we have a Chaos balance thread in this sub-section. :/

I have to agree with my Chaos brothers. Subjugation is almost the only thing that the Chaos Sorcerer have against Terminator squad, (and in lesser extend Nobz and Seer Council). Not sure if Chains of Torment prevents the Terminators teleport.

[Chaos Librarian]

To Asmon,

yeah of course I tried to infiltrate the sorc whenever im using subjugation, but unless if my opponent is a complete n00b, he will most definitely have detection. For example, most ork players will have double shootas with nobs running around with their blob by tier 3 and will be able to focus down the sorc with ease, meaning i have to dedicate yet another squad to somehow silencing them (i.e. noise marines, havoks, etc.). The point being that t-worship doesn't automatically make sorc invulnerable during casting subjugation.

Furthermore, about daemon armour, it's in the same category as teleport and chains of torment, both of which are extremely useful and have broad uses compared to daemon armour which is very, very niche. When's the last time you saw a sorc using daemon armour? So i believe your point about sorc technically having a shield is largely m00t.