Dawn of War Codex

Tex wrote: In regards to the weirdboy, I am willing to make 2 concessions. First, I think his default attack could get a knockback and damage radius reduction. Second, I would be willing to suffer a price increase up to 400-50 if the foot of gork upgrade got a price decrease to to 80-25.

Riku wrote: His default attack isn't the problem imo. Would still make Foot of Gork wipe stuff without problems for the same cost.

I don't think FoG nor his default attack are particularly OP, FoG costs a lot of power to get access to and has such a long cooldown and energy cost... His default attack is meh, it's very slow firing and he has no melee capabilities, it's ok.

Tex wrote:Warp vomit is a pretty integral part of how orks counter T3 compositions with their T2 if forced into this very shitty situation. I'm loathe to let anything happen to this ability other than have it's energy cost raised.

Riku wrote: That would be great and all if warp vomit wasn't used vs T1-2 units. And how is that even fair vs T3 units? It's like the librarian or autarch countering nobs by default ...
No other race gets anything as powerful like this when stuck in T2.

And to add to that Orks have an incredibly strong t1 now with the painboy who counters their main issue in t1 - jump units/nids. Of course they have one of the best t3s too. It's common knowledge that orks should get out of T2 ASAP, the fact that they can counter t3 units using this cheap-ass subcommander is a bit much when it's their fualt for being stuck in t2 for too long. IG are made to combat t3 armies with t2 armies, but erm, I don't see ogryns doing what the weirdboy does to terminators. :L

Tex wrote:As far as I knew, warpath grants 20% resistance to ranged damage, not all damage. Has it been changed or is this a mistake?

Riku wrote:link Hasn't been changed since retail other than added the 15% more melee dmg.
And -10 starting energy cost.

I think 10% for both melee damage and damage resistance would be good.

Kvek wrote:Make vomit affect friendly units, so he can't just vomit his own shootas when asm jump em.

That can't be the solution because the weirdboy is key to ork counter-initiation alongside the painboy. I think it should have a reduced duration to about 6 seconds and the damage resistance debuff should be removed.

That can't be the solution because the weirdboy is key to ork counter-initiation alongside the painboy. I think it should have a reduced duration to about 6 seconds and the damage resistance debuff should be removed.

Those would be the fully upgraded sluggas, the weird is meant to be a melee/blob counter and it also provides artillery with a decent AV damage, i don't see why he should also be able to babysit the shootas that much, aswell as beign able to change the outcome of a melee fight by vomiting on the sluggas and the melee unit they engaging.

ASM and ogryns would both be unkillable if vomit did FF.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:ASM and ogryns would both be unkillable if vomit did FF.

sluggas ?
wb ?
ashashun ?
mek deffgun ? there are more things, also you could vomit asm, but it would also stun your shootas (the unit they jumped)

And with stunned shootas scouts can easily get into range with their shotguns, as can catachans, the FC or the LC and therefore sluggas aren't gonna do anything to either the ogryns or the asm, and that assumes you managed to avoid vomitting on your sluggas too.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:His default attack is meh, it's very slow firing and he has no melee capabilities, it's ok.

He actually has a pretty darn good special attack :p So ranged units tying him up is not a viable option like it is with wraithgaurds/pdev/.. for examples.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:I think 10% for both melee damage and damage resistance would be good.

I think you are not completely understanding here. I could be wrong.
The ability grants 20% dmg reduction vs anything in a radius 20 around the Weirdboy
AND grants +15% melee buff to the surounding Ork units.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:ASM and ogryns would both be unkillable if vomit did FF.

You can always vomit them on approach. Especially Ogryns. Don't overreact now :p

Kvek, keep in mind that Torpid is arguing with the standpoint of a 6 secs stun, without the 20% dmg increase. In this case vomit could stay harmless for friendlies imo too.
(I'd only also remove the kb it does but I guess you guys knew that already :p)

That Torpid Gamer wrote:And with stunned shootas scouts can easily get into range with their shotguns, as can catachans, the FC or the LC and therefore sluggas aren't gonna do anything to either the ogryns or the asm, and that assumes you managed to avoid vomitting on your sluggas too.

You also have some other squads that can stop these things from entering the fray :p

The best idea i've heard so far is the removal of dmg resistance debuff and a slightly lower stun duration. The weirdboy should be able to counter the asm or w/e that plow into your shootas and give them a chance to back off/let your sluggas get into the fray, but i'll agree that with such a long duration it kinda forces an instant retreat. Removing the knockback as well may work, as the unit IS still stunned (allowing sluggas to whoop on the unit), but still allowing an instant retreat without taking too much attrition because the unit needs to stand up as they take a beating.

I really would really hate to see the weirdboy's base attack changed, I feel it's in a good spot. It's great at handling heavy armor blobs (csm, tacs etc) whereas shootas with their piercing damage may otherwise have issues (2x MoT csm vs 2x BS/nob shootas has never worked out well for me as an ork player, but an added plasma shot and knockback makes a huge amount of difference).

I can't really say much about Warpath, as I honestly never use it. I find that the weirdboy gets focused hard if he's rushing into melee and not knocking down the enemy with his awesome ranged attack. Not to mention the added micro of managing the constant energy drain and whatnot.

Also, I wouldn't mind an energy cost increase on the weirdboy if his upgrades got a bit of a cost reduction. This would delay him coming onto the field so early, but allow the ork player to more easily invest in obtaining his abilities, promoting abilities other than warp vomit (which of course make playing with him more interesting imo).

He does have a wicked special attack for pretty much no reason. Just like the warp spider. Why do these units have these crazy special attacks? I dunno, I would remove that, but it's negligible anyway, you can't move close to that weirdboy becuase shootas just annihilate your stuff and jump units get vomitted on.

I know what warpath does and I was saying I think it should only grant 10% resistance to damage to nearby orks and only 10% extra melee damage. I like the melee damage aspect, but quite honestly this ability is good enough just for the speed buff, you can dodge stuff so easily with that and it really helps with ork mobility, just like over 'dere.

You can't vomit asm on approach and vomitting on ogryns is possible when combinded with AWD, however it means your sluggas will have to venture out to the front of the fight to hurt those ogryns before the stun wears off, but IG firepower > ork firepower, especially considering ogryns SHI and the lack of anti-SHI ranged damage for orks. So the sluggas would die too quick and then ogryns would rampage through everything then on. But yeah, this was all assuming my suggestions were implemented.

Tex wrote:Warp vomit is a pretty integral part of how orks counter T3 compositions with their T2 if forced into this very shitty situation. I'm loathe to let anything happen to this ability other than have it's energy cost raised.

All(?) the other races have some ranged anti-SHI squads, whereas orks pretty much have to rely on WeBo/stikk stuns and slugga nob + burna melee. You can do some janky shit like chain stikk/WeBo stuns together and toss piles of grenades and rokkits at them but it's not very effective and depletes your red like crazy. They don't anything near as nice as, say, MoT CSM or reapers.

Warp vomit may be OTT but the above should be considered when nerfing it.

Thank God somebody can understand my previous statement as it is applied in game.

Except Wartrukk, Stikkbommas and Shootas all Ork T2 units do good damage against any Terminator variant. Ranged Terminators aren't a big problem with Full Sluggas/Stormboyz with support.

The only exception are the Lighting Claws (Chaos) Terminators.

if it's a serious issue flashgits could always be swapped with stikks into t2. i have very little understanding of ork meta but they would end up functioning similarly to DR.

as it is though warp vomit is really frustrating to try and fight against because it's fast to cast, has a huge aoe, stuns for what seems like forever, and poses no risk to the orks. anything caught in it generally has to instantly retreat.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Except Wartrukk, Stikkbommas and Shootas all Ork T2 units do good damage against any Terminator variant. Ranged Terminators aren't a big problem with Full Sluggas/Stormboyz with support.

The only exception are the Lighting Claws (Chaos) Terminators.

good dmg? What is good dmg? Piercing and t1 melee? and the wartrukk, or do you mean the looted tank?

Well fully upgraded Ork T1 melee is good against ranged Terminators. Shootas are not that good because of the damage type. Though their base dps is fairly high so double shootas can be used to damage Termies IF they are on the run, tied up with Sluggas/Storms, stunned or focusing on something else.

Trukk is probably mentioned as a support for mainly Storms/Sluggas.

What do you guys mean by "good"? Sluggas and storms take pretty horrendous casualties fighting terminators of any variety unless they are backed up by warboss globals and/or stuns. Let's not just hypothetically pit an entire ork army supported by globals against an unsupported termie squad either...

Even with globals and stuns, assault termies and I assume LC chaos termies have melee resistance, which makes an uphill battle even uphillier

Tankbustas can hit termies but remember that their damage output is tuned to vehicles i.e. they're good for taking down a razorback (600 HP) or a dread (1k+ HP), not a three man squad with an HP pool in excess of 4,000. Deff dread does ~70 dps IIRC and doesn't have the option of emperor's fist, bloodrage, multi-melta, etc

Hold on here. you telling me ranged terms beat Stormboys in close combat? °_O
Ranged terminators lose to anything melee oriented once in melee. And I never understood why AV does 100% dmg to terminators from a balance point of view.

Gorilla wrote:

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Except Wartrukk, Stikkbommas and Shootas all Ork T2 units do good damage against any Terminator variant. Ranged Terminators aren't a big problem with Full Sluggas/Stormboyz with support.

The only exception are the Lighting Claws (Chaos) Terminators.

good dmg? What is good dmg? Piercing and t1 melee? and the wartrukk, or do you mean the looted tank?

Level 1 Full Stormboyz do 260 dps against Terminators, which don't have Melee aura (40% less damage in melee combat)

On the other hand, Terminators do 34 dps per member x 3 = 102 dps. But Stormboyz have Melee aura, so they receive 61 dps from the Terminators Powerfists. Each member do 20 dps.

With the more powerfull version of the Painboy's heal it's enough to tank the ranged Terminators melee damage meanwhile the Heal on Time of the heal is up.

Of course, I'm talking about RANGED Terminators.

I have to admit storms are a bit of a blind spot for me because I don't use them that often. I also thought termies raw melee dps was 50, so my bad there.

Some quick numbers: two storms against one term model do 78 dps against 1500 HP take 19 seconds to kill a model. One terminator at 20 dps against 180 HP for a single storm model takes 9 seconds to kill a model. Once the storms have lost 3 models things can swing in the terms favor. OTOH, I think the more realistic scenario factoring in levels, nob, and stun-on-landing, the storms will win. But, ranged terminators are, you know, a ranged unit. Their big HP pool should give you plenty of time to bring in support. All three SM commanders have good anti-melee support and once you drive off the storms the ork is left with few options to counter the termies.

And that's assuming you have storms in the first place. Sluggas are pretty bad, as they will get shot up on approach, 4/7 models will be doing 2/3rds damage (normal melee vs SHI) and the 150 or so dps between the burna sluggas and nob won't carry the fight. Yes sluggas have swamp'em but termies have teleport so that's something of a wash depending on how skillful the sm is with the teleport

Also, special attacks from the sluggas and storms will be more or less wasted since they will decrease dps and not knock anything over.

TLDR ranged termies have a huge HP pool and they win melee fights by outlasting stuff. I've seen people lose their termies trying to run away from stuff and they could have beaten in CC.

Keep in mind, that beside the first time termies come into play they have NEVER 100% of their HP not even with an apo, 90% or less at all times is more realistic.

Non of that is justifying the Weirdboy vomit. If the player got to T3 and get terms out while keeping you in T2 you got outplayed and should lose.
If not then you should also have nobs/tank on the field and with an even 5 sec stun will give you a very big advantage.

Careful Riku, that is a very generalistic, almost "all knowing" statement.

I will simply say:
1) I agree that the weirdboy needs some fine-tuning and I will submit a full list of recommendations.
2) I have been in many games where my opponent has been able to get into t3 and I am stuck in t2 due to sheer luck or just a few moments of bad bleed which orks can be very prone to. And this doesn't just happen to orks mind you. But the point is, just because I'm stuck in t2 as an ork means I should lose? Because I can guarantee you this, if I don't have a powerful ability like warp vomit to help me counter t3 "nasties" such as nobs/council/terms, then I will never be able to counter the tank that inevitably comes after.

Every race in this game save for orks can work wonders in T2.

Just throwing it out there.

If the player got to T3 and get terms out while keeping you in T2 you got outplayed and should lose.

I have to disagree with this statement simply because if you substitute "terminators" with "a T3 unit", then this statement basically amounts to "if a player gets to T3 before you and gets a T3 unit out while keeping you in T2 you got outplayed and should lose.

If my memory does not fail me, I remember reading an interview with Relic saying the whole point is that the difference between T1 and T2 is quite big, whereas the difference between T2 and T3 is smaller.

And this is true: if you are still in T1 you cannot take on a vehicle in a fight straight up, or concede that there's going to be a lot of free damage against you due to kiting or accepting the transport damage+ reinforce, rather than just infantry vs infantry.

T3 by comparison is much more manageable when fighting it with a T2 composition, especially when the T2 composition has a equal or even larger unit count. Examples of units in T2 that can do well (albeit possibly with more effort) in T3 are: lascannon devastators, plasma devastators, etc... If they throw a vehicle at you, you can deal with it using T2 AV. If they throw elite infantry at you, you can knock them back, stun them or suppress them. Superunits can be handled by artillery or snares.

Indeed, I've seen games where T2 has overcome T3 to take the game. Are you saying that all of these situations are stupid and that T3 ought to win every game?

But of course I assumed that you CAN substitute terminators with a T3 unit. On that note I would say with the direction Elite Mod is taking I infer that Caeltos wants there to be equally good chances at winning the game for all races. If SM ought to win the late game, then fair enough, Riku is right. But I don't think that's how Caeltos is intending to design the game.

Tex wrote:Every race in this game save for orks can work wonders in T2.

What does t2 Ork lack then that other races have?
Because I can't think of anything.

Tex wrote:Careful Riku, that is a very generalistic, almost "all knowing" statement.

What is?


No that was not what I was trying to say Codex.
I can see how I wasn't clear at all here. Sorry.

I'm trying to bring across it's not ok for Vomit to stun for that long.
After all, as you said T2 is capable of dealing with T3. And Orks can still deal with T3 stuff like tanks and terminators if the vomit got toned down.

Dark Riku wrote:

Tex wrote:Every race in this game save for orks can work wonders in T2.

What does t2 Ork lack then that other races have?
Because I can't think of anything.

Toilailee wrote:

Explain yourself. Post like this are only cluttering the threads.

I would say scaling potential. Staying T2 as orks vs more or less any other faction in the game that is T3 is like death sentence.

Dreadnoughts and many other misc. units have far better overall utility and usefulness even towards late-game.

No plasma weaponry
No (good) vehicle snare
No beefy walker with ranged AI/AV options

They do have a 10 second AoE stun though, so there's that lol

To what Caeltos said about scaling potential, would moving a squad like Kommandos to t2 help with that? Or is that absolutely out of the question and leave every thing how it is with Orks?

Other then the warp vomit. I think termies should be able to teleport out of there if vomited on. Maybe not move any further and have the effects of being stunned on them. But at least be able to teleport out instead of being overwhelmed by everything on the planet for 10 seconds since they cannot retreat and have no real way of getting out of there unless with GoI upgrade on libby.

Orks aren't meant to be in t2 for long. They have a cheap ans nasty unit assortment in t2 and their t1 units scale well into it too, so they need not invest too heavily in it - which is why the guaranteed gen farm bash form the DD rush is a bit too much if you ask me -, this is why their t3 is so strong...