Dawn of War Codex

Nurland wrote:Jebus those SG numbers seem quite scary. They do better anti SHI than plazma Tacs.

I know, and this is with a 20% nerf to their current dps at 17.5 (1.5). But in practice SG dps is lower due greater fall-off from model losses and ammo-switch time.

Nurland wrote:Also why do Kraken do extra damage to commanders? Wasn't lulfire the anti-commander choice

Lulfire already deals insanely well with light infantry which is by far the most common armour type (unless you face SM/GK). SG should be reliant on switching ammo rounds to stay effective, in many situations that's just not the case right now. So we're giving Kraken some love to encourage more use.

Sub_Zero wrote:Thanks a lot! I have to confess this table confused me a bit to say the least.

Hopefully this post clears some of it up.

Sub_Zero wrote:The first thing that wondered me is hellfire rounds' performance. Are they gonna be worse than kraken rounds against commanders?

Yes, that's the idea.

Sub_Zero wrote:I thought the point to create sternguard veterans had been the lack of proper anti-LI infantry units in the roster. I thought these rounds had been supposed to be the most effective rounds. Looks like all this time I was wrong.

They're not there to serve a specialist role since they're supposed to be a generalist unit. Right now though they're simply too good vs LI/SHI.

Sub_Zero wrote:But frankly they have never seemed to be effective, the only prominent thing about them is their wiping potential, I mean that retreating targets receive a lot of damage.

The dot entirely bypasses damage reduction, that's not just useful on retreating units. Many get SG just for these rounds, perhaps they should have been a separate upgrade for tacs.

Sub_Zero wrote:And the last remark will be about vengeance rounds. As far as I know they have reduced range.

They have the same range, 38m.

Sub_Zero wrote:That is how I would design them.

Ok, but why? You haven't given any arguments for us to consider.

Sub_Zero wrote:And to the question of their overall effectiveness compared to tactical marines

Sorry what I meant was tacs with plasma/rl upgrade, SG should never outperform them in their specialty.

crazyman64335 wrote:but at a much shorter range, so she's much more vulnerable to being tied up in melee and without her brazier she'll just get wrecked. It's a riskier choice and usually gives away your strategies (building manticores lol)

The Inq bias is real, but I'm with crazy on this. I was really excited about the range boost but I'll take 5 less power. She can get dakka'ed down very fast and the Crippling Volley isn't instantaneous like the Robes of Torment are. Unless you combo it with the Rosarius you have to be careful with the approach.

I'm trying out Ogryns instead of Manticores for this though

crazyman64335 wrote:but at a much shorter range, so she's much more vulnerable to being tied up in melee and without her brazier she'll just get wrecked. It's a riskier choice and usually gives away your strategies (building manticores lol)

That's why I just want a standard range on it

One comment about the Curse of Tzeentch though is that I would prefer the change so that it doesn't effect your own units. I do a lot of Sorc + Raptors play, but using curse is really cringe worthy when I see my own units getting knocked back by the effect.

I know, that would be stupidly op ToN on demand but .... pretty plz

Caeltos, are we not looking at a nerf for the chaos dread launcher? I'm open minded but can someone please explain to me how that is balanced. Its Anti-inf damage is absurd + suppression

Caeltos wrote:* Commissar Lord Carapace Armor health increased from 125 to 200

Happy days are here again. I had always thought that this is the way it should have been. T1 carapace armor gives him the much needed tankiness he needs in T1 letting you use Inspire more freely without having to horde energy to be able to tank and if you want to trade off the extra hp for more damage with Flak Jacket in T2 that was your decision to make.

Cheah18 wrote:Caeltos, are we not looking at a nerf for the chaos dread launcher? I'm open minded but can someone please explain to me how that is balanced. Its Anti-inf damage is absurd + suppression

I dont think it is that balanced either. I wouldn't mind it it did little to no damage (with the exception of vehicles) as long as I get to keep the suppression since it will also suppress any unit that tries to go in the area effected by the ability. I normally play sorc as Chaos and this ability coupled with a well placed doom bolt is VERY potent through out the game. Especially since the suppression last for quite a bit of time which I also would mind a nerf (like 1 second or 2).

Thanks for support Black. It is honestly the one thing in the game which is making me rage so much. The suppression lasts for a CRAZY amount of time, the suppressed just crouching there long after the missiles explode. It does huge damage to inf and vehicles it is literally anti-all for IG (my main) in tier 2 (except melta ST but these guys so short ranged and squishy they get bummed by other units, especially spotter tics which are the natural counter and almost invariably part of the chaos's build.

I'm not sure about the new sternguard dps changes. It seems that the only reason anyone gets them is for the anti light infantry deeps and with the new changes they're only going to be marginally better than standard tacs in that department:

Sterns: 65.32 dps (12.83+3.5)x4
Tacs: 59.38 dps (14.58x3 + 15.64)

I dunno about anyone else, but I don't think I'm willing to pay 100/30 for a 5 dps increase.

Hardly weighing things up holistically there.

Sterns grant:
Anti-building.
A DoT against infantry (which you treated as ordinary dps when it is far superior due to ignoring cover/retreat modifiers).
Soft AV.
Better-than-average anti-HI capabilities pre-plasma gun.
Power-free fourth model.

Cons to sterns:
Sterns aren't as powerful as upgraded tacs vs a specific foe.
Sterns lose the potential to get a flamer which in turn makes them much worse gen-bashers.
Sterns lose their levels upon upgrading.
Reduced melee dps from losing the chainsword of the tac-sarge and kraken bolts if fighting HI/SHI in melee.

Did I forget anything?

Torpid wrote:Hardly weighing things up holistically there.

Sterns grant:
Anti-building.
A DoT against infantry (which you treated as ordinary dps when it is far superior due to ignoring cover/retreat modifiers).
Soft AV.
Better-than-average anti-HI capabilities pre-plasma gun.
Power-free fourth model.

Cons to sterns:
Sterns aren't as powerful as upgraded tacs vs a specific foe.
Sterns lose the potential to get a flamer which in turn makes them much worse gen-bashers.
Sterns lose their levels upon upgrading.
Reduced melee dps from losing the chainsword of the tac-sarge and kraken bolts if fighting HI/SHI in melee.

Did I forget anything?

Kraken bolts only effect HI not SHI. 'Tis sad but true. Another con is from the potential special attack from the chain sword when They Shall Know No Fear. Since it also effects the special attack for the tac serg (special attack override 50%) which makes the knock back hit more than one unit when the RGN god favors you. So TSKNF takes a small nerf.

I remember reading about that sometime, but it never sticks in my head for some reason - the kraken bolts not affecting SHI, thanks for that. And yeah no specials does make ATSKNF a little weaker.

hakon wrote:Here are the suggested numbers, http://i.imgur.com/MbyDj1K.png. We're a bit worried SG might overperform when compared to regular tacs. Give your thoughts

I don't think that looks like "overperformance." All those numbers look conservative to me, especially considering the SG squad will experience a 1/4 damage drop with every model killed and can't be spammed. As for my thoughts, I don't understand why the four SG ammo types weren't originally keyed into the four varieties of infantry armor.

The Tac flamer bashes gens/other "buildings" as well as garrisons (invaluable at every tier).
The Tac missile launcher bashes vehicles (invaluable in tiers 2-3).

The SG dragonfire could have bashed light inf (the same as hellfire do already), and not garrisons (leave the flamer with its natural role).
The SG hellfire could have bashed commanders (the same as they do already, although I think a DoT effect needlessly complicates them).
The SG kraken could have bashed heavy infantry.
The SG vengeance could have bashed super heavy.

That would have left one element unaccounted for: the oh-so popular tac plasma gun. I don't think that's a bad scheme, and it's naturally limited by the loss of melee skill on the tac sarge, the loss of tac levels when transitioning to SG, and the inability to spam SG (1 squad means 1 target for your opponent). You could even remove the faster capping speed from SG if it felt necessary (which would further cement the need for pure tactical marines). I would also add that, as it stands now, the tactical marine flamer occupies the same role as the dot effect on hellfire rounds and dragonfire rounds as anti-garrison. Take away the anti-garrison on SG and you even further cement the value of pure tacs.

Between Tacs and SG that would provide six different options for six different types of armor (including buildings). Every option requires an active choice by the SM player to adopt (especially in the case of SG). You already have three unique effects for three of the SG ammo types, just make Kraken rounds blue or something and you have six unique visual identifiers for each of the six roles occupied by tacs and SG together (Although, again, I would scrap the DoT effect from Hellfire, and maybe give them the little acid splash animation that tyranid AV warriors have. The DoT is made most notable by its effect against retreating targets specifically; it is a particularly punitive mechanic, especially against certain armies, and it comes from the same school of game design that has generated so many frustrated threads regarding howling banshees over the lifetime of this mod). Those 6 visual effects telegraph the SM player's choices and targets to the opposing player, promoting play and counterplay (not to mention the aesthetic benefits).

I'm thinking that plasma gun tacs would make more sense as a true blue "generalist" unit, at least when compared to SG switching between specialized ammo types. Plasma tacs already occupy a role not unlike MoT CSM, they are a 1 click generalist anti-inf unit. Even if the 26 dps plasma gun is best against heavy targets, it's certainly not bad against other types of infantry. I'm not going to lie, if it were me I would just remove the plasma gun from tactical marines altogether, and have the six neat categories described above. Let the techmarine have the damn plasma gun.

There are my complete thoughts on SG design. What can I say? I couldn't resist.

Suppose you remove the plasma gun. What would we replace it with? Meltaguns are undesirable, given their overlapping role as AV with missile launchers, as well as overlapping with vengeance AND kraken rounds on Sternguard, thus defeating the point of removing the plasma gun in the first place. If we are NOT giving them a replacement weapon, how is the nerf to tactical space marines justified? Are they demolishing all heavy infantry? They obviously are not; that's Mark of Tzeentch Chaos Space Marines. It could be conceivable that we give them the ability to toggle to frag missiles on the missile launcher, but it would overlap with the anti-light infantry of flamers, as well as hellfire rounds on Sternguard.

Now back to the Sternguard. Hellfire rounds, being a fast-acting acid (according to Codex Space Marines), I feel should not do damage over time, but straight up more damage against infantry and light infantry. Dragonfire rounds are specifically designed to bypass cover, and so do not have bonuses against any target unlike the other 3 round types and therefore do not deal additional damage against buildings, which I assume is what you were saying. I agree with that; it works perfectly.

I think that the main problem is the overlap kraken rounds and tactical space marine plasma gun. I think that a good way to solve it would be to buff kraken round range. It would give kraken rounds a niche as a "standoff" round of sorts, taking down enemy targets from beyond their range, much like flash gitz in the ork army.

Lolzarz, I don't think the plasma gun should be replaced with anything. I don't think that you and I are even talking about the same thing.

I think that SG should do for the SM roster what the plasma gun is supposedly there to do, but in a more versatile, less spammable, and more engaging way. I can see six neat categories of damage vs armor that tacs and SG could fit into, and I think it would be interesting mechanically to see them do just that. So no, I'm not saying that dragonfire rounds should continue to go through cover/garrisons (I would leave that to the Tac flamer). I'm saying that I would have each of the four SG ammo types correspond to one of the four infantry armor types. For the sake of aesthetics, I would have dragonfire correspond to light infantry armor.

The interplay between tactical marines and SG that I envisioned in my previous post has SG taking on a dedicated anti-infantry role while tactical marines maintain more utility, and access to anti-vehicle, anti-garrison, and anti-building damage. I'm not really thinking in terms of a "nerf" to tactical marines, I'm thinking in terms of a re-calibration of where the SM army gets its ranged anti-infantry punch starting in tier 2.

All that said, I don't actually think Hakon/Caeltos is going to go for it. But Hakon asked for our "thoughts," and while reviewing another post (one where a different person advocated changes to SG), he asked the author to explain WHY they thought that SG should change. So I posted my thoughts, and the reasons that I thought SG should change.

I think I know what is different between what you are thinking and what I'm thinking.

You see sternguard as specialized micro-intensive anti-infantry and tactical space marines as counters to other stuff in general. I see sternguard as micro-intensive soft-counters to everything (including vehicles) and tactical space marines as specialized counters to everything, depending on the special weapon. You want sternguard and tactical space marines to do different things, while I want them to overlap, but have some differences.

So we see sternguard as different units.

Yup. ^That about sums it up.

According to the Codex Grey Knights Terminators already have 4.5 speed.

They don't. I was making it so the leveling tabs had anything over level 1 set to 0, and I think I used the file from the dev build, so the speed was changed to the new value.

I am no GK lover but how about making the reinforced plating increase the rhino capacity from 2 to 3 ? That sounds pretty fair in T2, if it's possible at all.

Don't think it's needed. The upgrades are cheap and really good at what they do.

Magus Magi wrote:All that said, I don't actually think Hakon/Caeltos is going to go for it. But Hakon asked for our "thoughts," and while reviewing another post (one where a different person advocated changes to SG), he asked the author to explain WHY they thought that SG should change. So I posted my thoughts, and the reasons that I thought SG should change.

I was only concerned with the damage/armour mod values as it’s been an issue reported on a number of times, at least regarding kraken bolts being completely overshadowed by hellfire and vengeance rounds. Your suggestions are way more drastic and should be directed to the community not me. I think most would agree on making the ammo rounds stand out more though, it’s a good suggestion.

Caeltos wrote:General
* Ravener Devourer weapon damage increased from 70 to 85
* Ravener Devourer cooldown decreased from 1.4 to 0

So I just read up on DPS calculations, and if I'm right the devourers will be changing from 18.15 DPS to something like 40.33 DPS? That seems.... Very high.Thoughts?

That is the Retail ranged dps for Ravs I think.

^ T1 flash gitz have returned

Nurland wrote:That is the Retail ranged dps for Ravs I think.

It's way higher, Im pretty sure in retail they have a weapon cooldown.

Devourers are t2 though in retail :/

I do think that Cael said in a twitch chat or on his stream that the actual dps isn't going to be that high but we'll see how it works out.

Yeah, it's too much, they would absolutely shred orks/eldar.

Caeltos wrote:General
Space Marines
* Some adjustments to Flesh over Steel - Vague (No longer tracks)

Meaning we get a shittier power fist compared to the one we had before you introduced the tracking FOS?
Or will you change the values back to the way they where, meaning longer stun time + lower energy requirement for the FOS?