Patch 2.5 (WIP)

[Cyris]

Counter point: For me, Canticle is going to go from experimented with and deemed worthless (only good combos were libby and INT (T2.5 and T3), agies was a billion times better), to unknown but filled with potential. The 3x cooldown is a wonderful addition. GK's "give energy" theme is neat but not enough units have energy intense/low cooldown abilities to make it work. The new Canticle helps solve this! Combo it with T2 SS or Purifiers casting Purification, and there are gonna be some really strong combos.

Units that I will be real happy to have the new canticle with:
IST (everything but Acolytes)
Libby (OMFG will this be awesome with him... I hope it effects him?!?)
Ops (nades)

Units I'll be fairly happy to combo it with:
SS (snare, T2 only)
Purifiers (meh)
VA (speeds up combat buff CD!)
Purgation (Clear vision and the snare)
INT (less then before with the lower regen, as mentioned before I think Justicar is a waste of resources, but faster melta nades is no joke)

There are a few things about the GK changes I don't like, but this is emphatically not one of them. And to be honest, it's also such a unique upgrade, I don't trust my theory crafting. We're really gonna need to see it in action.

I can also see triple ist being abused with this change. I think their abilities should have an energy cost so help mitigate that.

Totally agree on that:
Only Grenade Barrage doesn't have a cost, it prolly should? It could easily cost 60 energy like Overchange Plasma.
3x IST (plus some T1.5) is going to work very well with reinforcing Rhino also.

Questions on the ability:
Does it effect the BC? Libby? Allies? Vehicles?
3x cooldown - does this functionally count every second as 3 seconds of cooldown?

[Black Relic]

It takes the whole cooldown or the ability an multiplies it by a number. The only time the Cooldown of an ability will be affected is when said ability is used while that unit is under the effect of a modifier that reduces ability cooldown. If an ability is used before the CoA is thrown down it won't be affected by the reduced cooldown.

[ytimk]

The guy is already extremely beefy and immune to suppression. A commander that powerful teleporting out of nowhere was very unique in this game because an implicit part of this games design is that no one unit can have everything. Space marine force commanders and chaos sorcerers can get the teleport ability, because they are wearing normal armour and are subject all forms of crowd control. The brother captain has a whopping 1k hitpoints, suppression immunity, a speed buff, and a teleport option. It made for the kind of unidirectional fun where only the guy using him was having a good time.

That is a very good point, especially about unidirectional fun, cheers .

I readily acknowledge his raw brute strength: my main fears came from his slow speed and the implications that has for kitting him and potential reduction of him getting to an engagement before its over. Guess that is the trade off for being such a damage sponge.

[Myrdal]

Questions on the ability:
Does it effect the BC? Libby? Allies? Vehicles?

It's infantry only except the BC and it works on allies currently.

3x cooldown - does this functionally count every second as 3 seconds of cooldown?

Yes, pretty much.

It takes the whole cooldown or the ability an multiplies it by a number. The only time the Cooldown of an ability will be affected is when said ability is used while that unit is under the effect of a modifier that reduces ability cooldown. If an ability is used before the CoA is thrown down it won't be affected by the reduced cooldown.

No, the cooldown is reduced each second the squad is within the aoe. This will affect abilities already on cooldown before it was cast.

[Cyris]

Thanks for the clarification! Can I pick your brain a bit more on what it effects or not? Does it effect:
GK Libby (not exactly sure what you mean by infantry only)
Allied sub-commanders (And if it filters targets based on armor type, does this mean the WB would be effected but the Doc not, since he's infantry while the Doc is commander)
Allied commanders

Since it excludes SHI, it amusingly effects Nobs, but won't effect Ogryns

Am I correct in assuming it will effect units based on armor type? IE: it effects infantry, infantry_fire_resist and heavy_infantry?

[Black Relic]

No, the cooldown is reduced each second the squad is within the aoe. This will affect abilities already on cooldown before it was cast.

How did you do that? Can you send me a copy of the ability when its made? Caz I wasn't able to do this. The ability had to be used when the modifier was one them and not before.

[Wise Windu]

GK Libby (not exactly sure what you mean by infantry only)
Allied sub-commanders (And if it filters targets based on armor type, does this mean the WB would be effected but the Doc not, since he's infantry while the Doc is commander)
Allied commanders

Since it excludes SHI, it amusingly effects Nobs, but won't effect Ogryns

Am I correct in assuming it will effect units based on armor type? IE: it effects infantry, infantry_fire_resist and heavy_infantry?

Targeted effects can be done by making it affect a unit type (infantry, which applies to all HI, SHI, fire resist, etc.), and then after that omitting certain armour types. So you can make it affect infantry type units, and then make it ignore SHI, HI, or whatever other armour type you want. It's much easier that way; shorter code over all. So infantry-type units will be affected, and then anything with SHI will be ignored.

The sub-commanders will be affected and the BC not, because while the armour type for a lot of them is commander armour, that armour type doesn't have to be referenced to omit commanders. Commanders all have an additional unit_type called "hero" which can be referenced to omit them, which sub-commanders don't have.

[HiveSpirit]

Vanilla Fex needs a lower base cost like 400r/100p, and then increase the upgrade costs instead to like 200r/100p each.
Same end price, just swapped around. Fex needs this because ppl dont want to play vanilla fex due to what usage you get for the cost.

[Batpimp]

Vanilla Fex needs a lower base cost like 400r/100p, and then increase the upgrade costs instead to like 200r/100p each.
Same end price, just swapped around. Fex needs this because ppl dont want to play vanilla fex due to what usage you get for the cost.

that would vastly affect how early you can get them on the field, of which tyranids usually already do, and would make lector price look absurd.

[HiveSpirit]

Nids
Bio-Plasma can wipe nearly full health squads and has become a core part of my HT play against some races. I do not think it needs a buff! If it's cost is to be reduced, I would be happy to see the damage go down a bit. That said, HT is the weakest of the nid commanders, so... eh?

Bio plasma only does up to 90 plasma damage (in total), rest of its effect is knockback. That up to 90 dmg is probably split between the models in the radius.

that would vastly affect how early you can get them on the field, of which tyranids usually already do, and would make lector price look absurd.

Totally legit to get a Fex in earlier. If its as you say its probably because the nid played rushed t3 and had the upper hand anyway, should have had the same outcome if you faced any other faction. How many vanilla Fexes have you seen in play, since ever? And whys that? People dont play with vanilla fexes because theyre "useless" for their cost..

400/100 could be to low but should be totally legit for what you get for the money.
Lets say then 450r/120p for a vanilla fex, and upgrades around 200r/80p.
Your right, lictor price could go down to atleast 70p, while where at it lower Neurothrope to 70p aswell.

[Crewfinity]

lol do you seriously want to make the carnifex the same cost as an SM dread?

bioplasma does 90 damage to all units within the radius... not 90 damage total. get a full guardsmen squad in it and it can deal 1080 damage.

carnifexes do not need to be cheaper. the reason nobody keeps it vanilla is because the upgrades are awesome and the nid economy can usually afford it no problem.

nids dont need to rush t3, they should usually have the tech lead and be able to get there before the opponent.

[Kvn]

Pretty much what Crew said. No way should a T3 super-walker cost the same as a dred. Its already pretty beefy on its own, but the upgrades are just so good. In a way, its somewhat similar to looking at Terminators. They're strong on their own, but the upgrades make them excel. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it needs a buff. Especially not such a drastic one.

[HiveSpirit]

Its not a super..

Vanilla Fex is worse than the dreadnought, fex has no ability out of the gate, no ranged, is one tier later and costs more.

The upgrade makes them useful, not excel, not awesome, without upgrade fex is useless for that cost.
A fex without an upgrade is not a fex, not for that cost.

Whats so drastic to increase the upgrade costs and lower fex with 100r/30p?

[Kvn]

Worse in what way?

Dread has 1200 hp out of the gate, 15 pop, 150 damage per hit (100 dps), needs repairs to restore health, Emperor's Fist ability, and costs 450 rec 120 power.

Carnifex has 1350 hp out of the gate, 18 pop, 200 damage per hit (100 dps), needs healing to restore health, can get buffed by synapse (the speed-buff towers being a very good example), and would cost 400 rec 100 power with your proposed changes.

It has more health, a better attack style (more burst damage is almost always preferable to sustained damage), and currently has some really good synergy with Warriors, the Swarmlord, and Zoanthropes given their healing aura, though that is being toned down next patch. Nid eco and normal map control means that they're not likely to have trouble getting to t3 in good time unless they suffer some painful power bashes. Even with its normal price tag of 600 rec 150 power, it isn't terrible considering its supported by the Tyranid economy. They have some of the best income in the game thanks to low bleed, low upkeep units that can get buffed to pretty crazy levels with the right army composition typically making up their front line. It looks like an insane asking cost on paper, but in game its actually pretty reasonable. How many times have people brought up Carnifex spam after all?

And while I don't think that it strictly needs the upgrade to function (at least in 1v1, team games are another matter), what's wrong with it if it does? Nobs, Flash Gitz, Kasrkin, and pretty much the entire Eldar infantry roster need their upgrades if they want to have any impact on the late game, just for a few examples.

Cost reductions are something that has to be done in baby steps. Each one affects a wide variety of things from timings, to spam, to just flat out cost effectiveness. Dropping the price by 200 rec and 50 power is an incredible leap. Even with the upgrades being more expensive, the base cost of the Fex wouldn't be nearly high enough, and drowning your opponent in them would become far more standard.

[Atlas]

Does anybody else think that 190 tics are gonna be way awesome for chaos players.
3 tic sorc could be new master race?

[Crewfinity]

yeah but the previous changes in tic experience should help to punish that if you're able to bleed the tics well. It looks like it'll be powerful but with some options for counterplay still

[saltychipmunk]

lol do you seriously want to make the carnifex the same cost as an SM dread?

bioplasma does 90 damage to all units within the radius... not 90 damage total. get a full guardsmen squad in it and it can deal 1080 damage.

carnifexes do not need to be cheaper. the reason nobody keeps it vanilla is because the upgrades are awesome and the nid economy can usually afford it no problem.

nids dont need to rush t3, they should usually have the tech lead and be able to get there before the opponent.

Then that could mean the upgrades should cost more and the base fex less.

Id be fine if the fex cost the same as a sm dread provided the difference was made up in upgrades. id also like to keep the pop at 18 because why 20. it is not a super unit. it is just a dread with better upgrades and a better base hp and wicked sick chin.

An upgraded fex is without a doubt worth the price. still a non upgraded one is ... kind of ehh. not terrible just not really impressive or special either...... and i really really hate this whole concept of buying a unit ... just to instantly upgrade it.

it feels like a missed opportunity which is a shame

[Asmon]

Does anybody else think that 190 tics are gonna be way awesome for chaos players.
3 tic sorc could be new master race?

Play WL problem solved

[Atlas]

Play WL problem solved

Sorc vs Eldar where is my tournament prize

Fair points on the tic experience change to offset.

[saltychipmunk]

I am more concerned with the 2 tic 2x main unit (+1 optional unit) build getting cheaper. 3 tics is novel but also over kill, 2 tics is usually when you get to experience some of the more interesting combinations such as....

having both tics invisible in addition to the rest of your army ( 1 tic builds have the tic vulnerable to ranged fire etc....)
or be able to to juggle speed tic worship more effectively...

heck even having a redundant tic around just to provide more meat for the opponent to chew through before you lose worship can be an advantage.

[Laplace's Demon]

Does anybody else think that 190 tics are gonna be way awesome for chaos players.
3 tic sorc could be new master race?

Ya its amazing. So much utility for so little. Access to grenades, AC (to beat enemy dedicated melee) worship, doomblast.... am i forgetting anything? All for 190. Pretty cool.

[Kvn]

Ya its amazing. So much utility for so little. Access to grenades, AC (to beat enemy dedicated melee) worship, doomblast.... am i forgetting anything? All for 190. Pretty cool.

To be fair, the first two come from purchasing Heretic upgrades rather than the base squad itself, but I agree that it's going to be an excellent buff for their performance. I might be mistaken, but doesn't that make them the least expensive unit in the game in terms of initial cost? Seems like a cool little bonus for Chaos. I don't play them enough to weigh in on balance though.

[Thibix Magnus]

I don't know what is the appropriate (melee?) damage vs cost trade-off for 'tics, but I really like the move, as a change (I think) improving the player's thematic experience within the balanced domain. Heretics being more disposable meat shield, and less of an early melee superiority squad, feels quite natural. It's easier to shout BFTBG without having to feel sorry for your poor tics - and your req- on the way. Not familiar enough with Chaos economy though, I don't know if it is a concern.

Do the grenade launchers keep their damage ? (just asking, might be fine)

[Narcolepsy]

I might be mistaken, but doesn't that make them the least expensive unit in the game in terms of initial cost? Seems like a cool little bonus for Chaos. I don't play them enough to weigh in on balance though.

Apart from spore mines, which are barely units to be fair. More of a tactical weapon.

As a chaos guy, I love this move. While Tics + AC + Doomblast might not solo banshees quite so easily with the reduced damage, they will as already stated be useful as actual suicide squads. Oh, mr nid player has brought spore mines and I don't want to be distracted from the rest of my day? send the tics. Scouts being annoying? send the tics. Coffee run out? Send in the tics. Tics everywhere. All tics, all the time.

[welshy]

I might be mistaken, but doesn't that make them the least expensive unit in the game in terms of initial cost? Seems like a cool little bonus for Chaos. I don't play them enough to weigh in on balance though.

Apart from spore mines, which are barely units to be fair. More of a tactical weapon.

As a chaos guy, I love this move. While Tics + AC + Doomblast might not solo banshees quite so easily with the reduced damage, they will as already stated be useful as actual suicide squads. Oh, mr nid player has brought spore mines and I don't want to be distracted from the rest of my day? send the tics. Scouts being annoying? send the tics. Coffee run out? Send in the tics. Tics everywhere. All tics, all the time.

Also though tics are great everywhere, be warned that you don't want tics in your house!

http://www.healthunit.org/hazards/images/fed-tick.jpg

[KanKrusha]

How far away is the patch? I think I have fixed some AI stuff for those who like Comp bashes

[Caeltos]

We're taking it slow (primarily me) when it comes to patching it in. We already did some work, but I dun goof'd up on some of the proccess bit, which resulted in some confusion and ... well - we've got to take a few steps back, and reassess what we added in, and make sure the accurate changelog that is presented goes through, and undocumented stuff gets toss out. (Certain undocumented changes, such as bug fixes and etc will still be added in, but balance related stuff is always mentioned)

There's alot to do, but Myrdal/Wise Windu has already made progress. We'll get there eventually, but we're still maybe a few weeks off. (2-3 tops maybe)

[KanKrusha]

Great . That gives me time to test it properly before sending windu the files

[Adeptus Noobus]

Great . That gives me time to test it properly before sending windu the files

Awesome that you are still working on that stuff.
Is it possible to tweak the Hard AI in such a way that it has the "Intelligence" of the Expert AI? I ask this because the Expert AI does not only have increased intelligence but also gathers requisition at 1.5 times the speed iirc. It just feels frustrating to play against e.g Chaos and see a LRP 5 minutes into the game because of the AIs teching and spending behavior.
It would also be nice to have the AI bash power again, like in retail.
And for the love of God, I tried teaching the AI to build Operatives when I myself tinkered with the fikes but it only built them in 2 of 10 matches. Maybe you could address that? Would be nice to see the AI avail itself of the units that have been added to the game by the Dev Team.

Again, thank you guys (Caeltos, Myrdal, Windu, Krusha,...) for your continued work on this. It is very much appreciated by a lot of people, even if some try to make you think differently.

[WNxDarkRaven]

Again, thank you guys (Caeltos, Myrdal, Windu, Krusha,...) for your continued work on this. It is very much appreciated by a lot of people, even if some try to make you think differently.

I second that. This mod and it's community are awesome (with the exception of a few individuals ).