Dawn of War Codex

How much red would you get for slaughtering these Whiteshields... I can imagine a classic Wraithguard 1 shotting 7-8 out of the 9 models in 1 volley.

I am a fan of Imperial Guards. And I will QUIT this Elite Mod if anyone dare bring this freaking unit that serves NO purpose into the game. Don't you do it. No. Stop. Guardsmen are blobbing enough. Unless we change them into 7 man squads, or make Orks and Tyranids' basic squads twice the size of they are now (like 12 models Slugga Boyz mob), I will never accept Whiteshield.

Basilisk, Hellhound, any sub-commander, Punisher upgrade for the Leman Russ. Anything but another generic infantry that is inferior to even Guardsmen.

Chill brah =D, every addition is welcomed. But yes, some aspects are more needed than another cannon fodder unit.

I would see it as welcome, having a unit that can be used to capture objectives as IG. Also would it come with a sergeant AND a Commissar upgrade increasing squad size like normal Guardsmen squads?

bibotot wrote:I am a fan of Imperial Guards. And I will QUIT this Elite Mod if anyone dare bring this freaking unit that serves NO purpose into the game. Don't you do it. No. Stop. Guardsmen are blobbing enough. Unless we change them into 7 man squads, or make Orks and Tyranids' basic squads twice the size of they are now (like 12 models Slugga Boyz mob), I will never accept Whiteshield.

Basilisk, Hellhound, any sub-commander, Punisher upgrade for the Leman Russ. Anything but another generic infantry that is inferior to even Guardsmen.

I totally agree with most of your points. IMO whiteshields are interesting cause of their ability to be a useful defensiv soft-counter to vehicles but they must not be implemented only for the commissar lord and/or replace loyal to the end

If there will be whiteshields then they should be a t1 unit for every commander, same as the hellhound could be one on t2. IG needs alot but we don't need one of IG's best abilities to be thrown away just to get some crappy die-immediately-unit which replaces THE ability which actually enables guardsmen to NOT DIE in a second.

enasni127 wrote:but they must not be implemented only for the commissar lord

But why? What makes it so absolutely necessary that Inq and LG also have them when they have a Banewolf and Heavy Turret exclusively? You don't see complaints about other Commanders not having access to them do you? So what's the reasoning behind this?

Getting back to the Whiteshields themselves, I thought the original purpose of these guys was to be just a completely expendable group of soldiers you'd throw in carefree, to mostly be a distraction or a secondary threat, somewhat akin to Blood Sacrifice. But the stats seems to indicate that you are supposed to keep them alive, micro them into cover and make sure they advance into other tiers for upgrades? Isn't that somewhat diametric to their original description? Sure, the purpose of them has probably been completely revamped, but if that's the case, then.... they are just cheaper guardsmen? I would like to know what exactly the purpose of the two units should be, especially given that Kasrkins and Stormtroopers also seem to have an overlap that I still don't find any difference to.

Helios wrote:

enasni127 wrote:but they must not be implemented only for the commissar lord

But why? What makes it so absolutely necessary that Inq and LG also have them when they have a Banewolf and Heavy Turret exclusively? You don't see complaints about other Commanders not having access to them do you? So what's the reasoning behind this?

2 reasons:

1. if they are good and really improve ig gameplay nobody will have a reason to play inq or lg anymore.

2. if they are crap they will ruin the commissar lord cause he'll lose loyal to the end which is one of the best abilities in the game imo.

p.s. many people want the banewolf to be changed into a hellhound and be available for all ig commanders.

enasni127 wrote:
1. if they are good and really improve ig gameplay nobody will have a reason to play inq or lg anymore.

That is a gross exaggeration. Back in retail the CL was by far and away the weakest IG Commander with overpriced and underwhelming wargear and yet people still played him. And these are what appear to be really weak guardsmen. That's not even a case of "if".

enasni127 wrote:
2. if they are crap they will ruin the commissar lord cause he'll lose loyal to the end which is one of the best abilities in the game imo.

As previously suggested (including by myself) Loyal to the end can be attached to a wargear, especially the Xeno Klaw and toned down to be on a CD equatable with the amount of red that you gain, on average, in a match, and make it useable on a single squad. PS, LTE Is honestly not as good as you people make it out to be....

Helios wrote:

enasni127 wrote:but they must not be implemented only for the commissar lord

But why? What makes it so absolutely necessary that Inq and LG also have them when they have a Banewolf and Heavy Turret exclusively? You don't see complaints about other Commanders not having access to them do you? So what's the reasoning behind this?

Getting back to the Whiteshields themselves, I thought the original purpose of these guys was to be just a completely expendable group of soldiers you'd throw in carefree, to mostly be a distraction or a secondary threat, somewhat akin to Blood Sacrifice. But the stats seems to indicate that you are supposed to keep them alive, micro them into cover and make sure they advance into other tiers for upgrades? Isn't that somewhat diametric to their original description? Sure, the purpose of them has probably been completely revamped, but if that's the case, then.... they are just cheaper guardsmen? I would like to know what exactly the purpose of the two units should be, especially given that Kasrkins and Stormtroopers also seem to have an overlap that I still don't find any difference to.

I find myself largely in agreement here, why do the IG even need another infantry to micro? How will these units be set apart visually? What exactly is there role and why can't this be moved to normal GM's? Large squads struggle with cover does only a single model need to be in cover to get the bonus or does only that model get the bonus and how will the player know if this unit is doing this increased damage or not?

This is a neat idea but it hardly address any problems the faction faces other than a bit of map control I suppose.

I would love to see whiteshields, I have always found it odd that one of the most numerous soldiers within the Imperial Guard was not the game, since a lot of guardsman never make it past being a whiteshield, and that conscripts make up the VAST majority of the Guard.

But I will say, I do agree with all IG commanders being able to have it, but they only get certain bonuses from having the commissar lord around(Like their LTE Ability, and maybe give them suppression resistance when the commissar lord is nearby, or they gain movement speed when he is in the area), since they are a large portion of the Guard in case of Lore, or maybe give them a cadet commissar upgrade if the CL is the hero they are controlled by giving them a small bonus to basic DPS, and a We shall not Falter sort of ability that upgrades with the squad level that gives them additional resistances to dmg for a short time. Just my two cents, from a rather inexperienced player.

Why is it such an issue that only the LC gets whiteshields? Is it so hard to understand that he is the weakest IG commander in most respects (or at the very least, the hardest to play), and that whiteshields would work so amazingly well into a backline execution playstyle?

I mean how hard is it to see that Caeltos is likely trying to open up a full support option for the LC without the need for much or any wargear?

So many heros are considered superior to other heros, simply because they do not need wargear in T1 to be effective. Whiteshields would solidify a no wargear playstyle for the LC and would in my mind help him to level the playing field significantly.

Tex wrote:Why is it such an issue that only the LC gets whiteshields?

That's pretty much what I've been asking. Do you think we like having the silly little mines that BARELY hurt HI, and that basically can be easily avoid by simply sidestepping abit? We'd like something with more oomph as well.

Helios wrote:

Tex wrote:Why is it such an issue that only the LC gets whiteshields?

That's pretty much what I've been asking. Do you think we like having the silly little mines that BARELY hurt HI, and that basically can be easily avoid by simply sidestepping abit? We'd like something with more oomph as well.

I think everybody who read this full thread should have understood what the problem is but I will explain it again especially for you and Tex

->

Caeltos said he wants to replace loyal to the end with whiteshields but loyal to the end is (imo) the best global of the CL and outstanding useful and cool combined with a chimera. Many people here think the same way and this is exactly why we don't want a Whiteshield-Global.
The only other possibility would be to add whiteshields to the unit roaster but that would mean that every IG commander would/should/could have them.

Conclusion: It is not an issue that only the CL gets White Shields, the issue is the loss of LTTE. And as it seems the community, which plays and supports this mod, just doesn't want to lose that ability (an ability which gives GM so much more standing power) for just another squishy cannon fodder that has no standing power at all.

enasni127 wrote:Conclusion: It is not an issue that only the CL gets White Shields, the issue is the loss of LTTE. And as it seems the community, which plays and supports this mod, just doesn't want to lose that ability (an ability which gives GM so much more standing power) for just another squishy cannon fodder that has no standing power at all.

So you don't actually have an issue with getting whiteshields, but more with losing Loyal to the End. Is that so?

I rather replace the Mines with Whiteshields. Give the mine placement to the Guardsmen, maybe make it cost a little, so the mines wont be lost.

Some of you here are seriously underestimating the mine drop ...

And some others are really OVERestimating LTTE.

Dark Riku wrote:Some of you here are seriously underestimating the mine drop ...

Helios wrote:And some others are really OVERestimating LTTE.

I agree. LTTE is a bad global. Mines are a good global.

I don't hate that only the LC gets Whiteshields, for me it is just a lore thing since conscripts are the mainstay of the Imperial Guard, na di it doesn't make sense to me that only one commander gets the vast majority of what the Guard is in the fluff. Just a personal thing, I personally would much rather have mines then LTTE, sine LTTE relies on your own units dying, and when they see it, the enemy can just back the hell off, compared to mines which can basically deny an area to vehicles.

Sure, mines can be great in close spots or combined with manticore strikes. LTTE often wins me engagements which i would usually lose without it. It's absolutely great combined with a chimera.

Caeltos asked us for our opinion about the replacement of LTTE with whiteshields and a majority of people here said they don't want to lose LTTE - I think this is a valid opinion and doesn't need endless discussion. By now Caeltos knows what people think and can do what he thinks is right.

enasni127 wrote:LTTE often wins me engagements which i would usually lose without it.

This is a myth I wish people would stop parroting. It does not win engagements you would have lost without it, it merely guarantees that you win battles that you were either already going to win or it was somewhat of a toss up. The ability REQUIRES you to lose men and while that is something that will pretty much happen all the time with guardsmen (so why not turn a negative in to a positive, yeah?) What happens if you don't lose any guardsmen??? Crack shot, FtE! More Dakka, none of those abilities just stop working simply because you take no losses. How people find an ability that can only works if bad things are happening to you better than flare is beyond me.

enasni127 wrote:It's absolutely great combined with a chimera.

Once again, none of the other global buff abilities like the ones I mentioned require another whole unit to maximize potential of the buff itself. Here's what I mean. More Dakka's chance to knockback doesn't in any way shape or form increase the damage the buff already adds to the squad, save for the instance where the targeted units tried to get out of range but the knockback kept them there as they were trying to get up and run away. Instead, the buff enhances the shootas to now provide a utility so that other units can benefit from IT rather than making the buff work to better the buffed unit. An example would be: throw stikk's at a squad in cover, pop More Dakka to knock them back (Let's say AWT? was on CD or you didn't want to sacrifice your dps) and now they're sitting ducks for the stikks going off around them. With LTTE, You MUST bring in a chimera or have a med bunker to make the most of the buff instead of the buff making the most for the unit. This is not practical at all.

enasni127 wrote:Caeltos asked us for our opinion about the replacement of LTTE with whiteshields and a majority of people here said they don't want to lose LTTE - I think this is a valid opinion and doesn't need endless discussion. By now Caeltos knows what people think and can do what he thinks is right.

I don't want it gone either. I'm not the type to label things as "useless". Just highly situational, and with the hopes balancing can make it less so and more available. But to go on about how great this global is, is just ridiculous. How can anyone possible believe that, especially when you consider we have flare at our disposal.

Helios wrote:

enasni127 wrote:LTTE often wins me engagements which i would usually lose without it.

This is a myth I wish people would stop parroting. It does not win engagements you would have lost without it, it merely guarantees that you win battles that you were either already going to win or it was somewhat of a toss up.

This is almost the most arrogant and wrong thing i've read in my life.
What I said about it was for sure not parroting, it's my own experience. I've started playing IG when retribution was released and have played them until today. I think after 2000 hours of retribution/elite mod I can decide for myself if it worked to win an engagement or not. And especially vs aoe attacks or stronger melee units it will definetely help you win an engagement as long as you have a chimera to support it, which you would have clearly lost without the help of LTTE.
The rest of your post is even weirder cause it seems like you've never even thought about using it offensively instead of defensively and vs melee units or aoe abilities/weapons. Just a hint: the flare is useless crap vs melee attackers or aoe attacks, LTTE is not!
Maybe you should try things out before you start offending people by calling them parrots and tell us we don't know what we are talking about.

Hope it will never be implanted. Just saying

DandyFrontline wrote:Hope it will never be implanted. Just saying

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

enasni127 wrote:This is almost the most arrogant and wrong thing i've read in my life.

Calling some one wrong sounds pretty arrogant to me. Also, everyone pretty much respects Caeltos' balance decisions and it's safe to say that when changes are made few people have problems with it and are in agreement. If LTTE was truly as good as people claim, there probably would be no need for a complete change.

enasni127 wrote:I've started playing IG when retribution was released and have played them until today.

Same here.

enasni127 wrote:I think after 2000 hours of retribution/elite mod

Time spent playing does not equal skill. But since you want to bring that up, 2415.6 hours logged here.

enasni127 wrote:And especially vs aoe attacks

If your reflexes are so good that you are casting LTTE on squads about to get hit by a grenade or LTGB! or some other instant Aoe, why don't you simply dodge the aoe? If you cannot dodge the aoe, probably due to knockback or suppression, you're probably in a situation where that squad is royally fucked and needs to retreat. This choice is made more appealing with Commissar on your GM squad since you will take reduced damage from retreating then Summary Execution after you're away from the AoE. Why spend 125 Red to eat a grenade??

If you're using it against sustained AoE, like a flamer, your units are all evenly taking damage and will probably die at close to the same time, negating the extra health buff. If you want to argue "I have a chimera!" See below.

enasni127 wrote:or stronger melee units

Let's consider the possible candidates of who can be buffed by LTTE:

1. Guardsmen/Stormtroopers/Kasrkins: If you're meleeing "stronger melee units" with any of these three you're doing it wrong.
2. Catachans: With no special attack you risk getting knocked down by an unlucky special attack by the enemy and taking loads of damage. Other than that, this is probably the only reasonable time to force melee and LTTE especially if it's a ranged squad with HI or SHI. But we're talking about "stronger melee units" so it's still a gamble.
3. Ogryns: Too few for LTTE to be very effective. Waste of red.

enasni127 wrote:as long as you have a chimera to support it

Thank you for proving my point once again that if you want to maximize LTTE's potential you need a totally separate unit to do so while other global buffs don't, ever.

enasni127 wrote:which you would have clearly lost without the help of LTTE.

Still anecdotal and without any concrete evidence. I can list numerous possibilities where LTTE and a chimera still would cause you to lose a fight. The best example would be ASM jumping in on your GM, forcing them into the chimera, else you'd be stupid to engage those in melee. If they are in the chimera, that's buff duration ticking away with no damage whatsoever. If they have Melta bombs now your chimera could also be in trouble depending on the other units fighting.

enasni127 wrote:The rest of your post is even weirder cause it seems like you've never even thought about using it offensively instead of defensively

Vague. What would you consider an offensive use of it and a defensive use? It is by nature both, since you must be dying in order for it to activate. But by dying, you are doing more damage so that means you're being more offensive. But other globals don't have this caveat. Send a GM squad with a flamer to ninja bash a farm and cast LTTE and they will gain no benefit. Send a Tac squad with a flamer and cast FTE! on them and they receive bonus damage it's whole duration, yet both of these are offensive moves.

enasni127 wrote:and vs melee units or aoe abilities/weapons.

Already explained to you the risks and flaws with this above.

enasni127 wrote:Just a hint: the flare is useless crap vs melee attackers or aoe attacks, LTTE is not!

Levitation Field is useless crap against vehicles. Must mean I should never use it and instead use other abilities. Well yeah. Because some abilities aren't meant to be used against certain units or in certain situations. The problem is, LTTE is not much more use either, for the reasons I just explained.

enasni127 wrote:Maybe you should try things out before you start offending people by calling them parrots and tell us we don't know what we are talking about.

Maybe you shouldn't assume people haven't tried the same things you have but came to different conclusions but at least gave explanations for them. Maybe you shouldn't take a comment not directly pointed at you (I just happened to quote you, but it's directed at everyone who thinks LTTE is as good as they claim) so personally.

LTTE is weak, but i see no use for these whiteshields, ig already has disposable worthless meat units that no one cares about , they are called guardsman, i dont need to spend red on another set of cannon fodder when i can just spend 300 req for more guardsman. the off map basilisk flare far too important an ability to waste potential uses on a unit ig already gets .

If we were to replace ltte with something else, i would prefer something that does a similar if muted buff, but is more assessable. or just a different buff that is more accessible ,since accessibility is really its only major fault.


like a global that forces all of your squads to be immune to suppression , inspired by the fear of getting capped in the head by the commissar. something like that makes more sense to me anyway.

saltychipmunk wrote:LTTE is weak, but i see no use for these whiteshields, ig already has disposable worthless meat units that no one cares about , they are called guardsman, i dont need to spend red on another set of cannon fodder when i can just spend 300 req for more guardsman. the off map basilisk flare far too important an ability to waste potential uses on a unit ig already gets .

If we were to replace ltte with something else, i would prefer something that does a similar if muted buff, but is more assessable. or just a different buff that is more accessible ,since accessibility is really its only major fault.


like a global that forces all of your squads to be immune to suppression , inspired by the fear of getting capped in the head by the commissar. something like that makes more sense to me anyway.

For the love of god please just stop.. Can you please try to read the original post? The whiteshields DO NOT cost red. They're 125 Req. I agree though, red is far better used on flare and the occasional mines. In fact, making LTTE an innate ability of whiteshields means we can use more Mines since we now have more red available.Also, no unit in this game is expendable except for rippers, spore mines, and the demons summoned by temporary chaos abilities. Everything else can level or if it doesn't level, it's because it's a super unit. This isn't fluff. GM aren't worthless expendable meat, they're IG's backbone in this game and meant to do most of the actual fighting.

Accessible? How? That whole second paragraph was you using the word accessible 3 times without context. It's a global buff that can be cast anywhere on the map. How much more access do you need?

All squads being immune suppression would be nice but ultimately overpowered. Besides, we have bionic eye for that, and occasionally Smoke grenade. Also most suppression comes from ranged units so we can count with Flare.

Gah, sorry that was a gerfubble on my part, i read the op a while ago and forgot some of the details (this is an older thread ) and i just assumed red for global, still even with the cost not being red and instead being req , they still strike me as redundant . actually alot of ig units strike me as that way.

the spotters seem like a catachan squad minus any real damage potential outside their abilities and having no counter melee component (though admittedly their abilities are quite stellar)

kasrkins are basically overprices stormtroopers

and these fellow are i guess cheaper guardsman with a twist , still

as for the word assessable , allow me to clarify basically i want the global to have less strings attached to it , LTTE still requires units to die which i guess fits the commisar's theme of shooting his own people to gain bonuses. inspire courage is already a difficult ability to use and can be almost a death sentence if one is not careful. perhaps it is just an me wanting less of that in the commissar.


I can see your point about the suppression immunity being too much... though

Just realised that you can build a squad normally and queue a squad of whiteshields at the same time.

That's a pretty big deal for the opening caps and engagements, especially due to the fact that sentinels are SUPER EFFECTIVE in the early stages of T1.

Don't even need whiteshields anymore due to all the GM buffs...