Dawn of War Codex

First off getting squad leaders (especially on a unit like scouts which i know riku is referring to) can be a risky play, because the squad sergeant getting focused down means the squad is dead.

2nd off No Name you're obviously not playing high level eldar players then, because all of the things you're referring to are nooby eldar plays. A high level eldar player can destroy you with 1 gate placement, on your side of the map. So if you don't mind, please tell me some of the levels of players you're playing in 1v1's. Because that does directly reflect the amount of frustration.

crazyman64335 wrote:A high level eldar player can destroy you with 1 gate placement, on your side of the map.

I'm aware. I've done it myself. I realise that gates have a pretty damn big effect on the battle. It may well be un-balanced as it is atm, I am not 100% sure.

What I'm trying to convey is that if there's a way of balancing gates without making them expensive red wise i think it should be tried, because in my opinion that would make for better, more varied game-play.

If everyone honestly think 75 red a gate is what it takes to make gates manageable well that's what will happen probably but I hope there's another way.

Like i said before, the middle resource points and your naturals can easily be defended from gate attack, things only get tricky if you decide to push forward into your enemies naturals and leave your rear open.

You do realize that that brings a huge advantage to eldar VP wise? Not that they are exactly suffering in map control even without gates.

Do you complain like this about double tzeentch tics as well?

Double tzeentch worship is an entirely different matter. It is actually fairly easy to spot the locations of the tics and then you know that there probably is an entire army there. It generally is not much of an issue to capping units either since the double worship is used mainly in bigger engagements in the middle of the map.

And no. Squad leaders are not always an auto buy.

Making detectors cheap would seriously screw over the infiltrating squads, heroes and tzeentch worship.

Not to mention tzeentch worship, like all worship, requires your units to be worshiping near your main army, as opposed to capping, which ultimately is the job of tics in t1.

no-name wrote:are you trying to be funny? squad leaders are never a bad addition either. they are not always necessary, people leave them out often in grenade tics but they are still useful.

Are you? You do know there is this thing called economy and tiers in this game right?
"Well I am glad I have these 2 detectors that cost 50power. [or more]
Ow look a vehicle and I'm stuck in T1."

no-name wrote:Why do you think so?

Because there are more things that use infiltration in this game then Eldar gayts alone.

no-name wrote:So you keep telling me. Gates taking a while to build now and making them weak enough for single detectors to handle would mean if your army came across a gate they spotted, the eldar wouldn't be able to unload an army. Unless you're doing it wrong and don't use spotters. Do you complain like this about double tzeentch tics as well?

How thick is that skull of yours? -.-
They are NOT weak enough for a single detector to deal with them!
Gayts are not being placed in your LoS either! They will be build out of your LoS.

Do you see me complaining about double Tzeentch worship anywhere then?!
And the comparison between the 2 doesn't make any sense either.

no-name wrote:you mean, 'force you to a complete stop when you already have majority map control'. Like i said before, the middle resource points and your naturals can easily be defended from gate attack, things only get tricky if you decide to push forward into your enemies naturals and leave your rear open.

Explain to me why the Eldar never has map control?! °_O
Don't use your bad plays as an example please.

no-name wrote:no, the worse player can sometimes beat the better player because RNG, because the better player wasn't playing his best, or for any other combination of reasons. The worse player won't win solely because he's playing eldar, stop being childish.

No, they can't. How about you stop making a fool out of yourself?

Nurland wrote:You do realize that that brings a huge advantage to eldar VP wise? Not that they are exactly suffering in map control even without gates.

not exactly, you can keep 2 of the VP's under your control gates or no gates. it only get's tricky if you try to stretch your forces and get everything. actually, you can get triple cap easily as well, with or without gates as long as you leave the enemy naturals be and watch your back.

Nurland wrote:Making detectors cheap would seriously screw over the infiltrating squads, heroes and tzeentch worship.

not sure just how screwed they would be since only certain units can get detect. the premise seems to be it's oh so hard to get detectors working on gates but on the other stuff it's possible? so you can have a detector with your army to spot double tzeentch tics but you can't for spotting gates? that still leaves the map control gates ofcourse, the lowering health solution for that i'd like to see tried.

Dark Riku wrote:Are you? You do know there is this thing called economy and tiers in this game right?
"Well I am glad I have these 2 detectors that cost 50power. [or more]
Ow look a vehicle and I'm stuck in T1."

you will never be behind eldar in tech unless the eldar is dominating you from the get-go. the energy requirements for eldar are just too high for that.

Dark Riku wrote:They are NOT weak enough for a single detector to deal with them!

right, which is why i'm suggesting lowering the health of gates right down so it is possible. i'm not saying gates should be left as they are currently, i just think trying something other than a price increase should be tried.

I noticed this in vanilla but I don't know about Elite and maybe get back to me with a supported answer. I am going to explain with a simple scenario.

player 1 and player 2 are playing eldar. Player 1 places a webway gate roughly near his/her base and player 2's base.
Player 2 also purchases a webway gate but places it near the contested VP. Can player 1 move his units into his webway gate and emerge out of player 2's?

In vanilla this wouldn't work. Wondering if this can happen in Elite.

If so maybe change it or lower how many units the webway gate can carry. A thought on how to fix it since (though i dont play elder) I wouldn't just cant to increase in red. Maybe an actual economic look at it too? A small one though? Maybe 50\5 and still 50 red?

I don't want to severely damage the use of webway gate though since it sounds like eldar to just "show up."

not sure just how screwed they would be since only certain units can get detect. the premise seems to be it's oh so hard to get detectors working on gates but on the other stuff it's possible? so you can have a detector with your army to spot double tzeentch tics but you can't for spotting gates? that still leaves the map control gates ofcourse, the lowering health solution for that i'd like to see tried.

If detectors would become cheaper that would mean countering ALL INFILTRATION easier and it would make it more appealing to get squad leaders in T1 as it wouldn't slow down your tech and would make grenade scouts, tzeentch worship, LA, Gay-man-do Nub far less useful.

When you are going against double tzeentch tics or other forms of infiltation you are generally going with you entire army or the majority of it and getting the detectors as protection for your army to win engagements. Not to hunt down some infiltrated buildings in random places for half the game.
This would be solved by the lowered health pool if you can find the gate at a right moment so that the luldar army can't just pop out and lul your squad. I really don't think lowering the health pool would be a correct way to solve the issues but I might be wrong.
Generally the unit you have as a capper is an unupraded scout/tic squad because as it is on capping duty, there is no point investing in combat prowess at least before mid game.

not exactly, you can keep 2 of the VP's under your control gates or no gates. it only get's tricky if you try to stretch your forces and get everything. actually, you can get triple cap easily as well, with or without gates as long as you leave the enemy naturals be and watch your back.

One VP is generally a "natural" point. And if there are gates in the map, triple caps in the non-gate playors favor are very rare if not showing rofl stomp dominance. Not being able to punish the enemy by taking/decapping his natural resource points is a pretty decent advantage. Especially against a faction that already has a good map control. And when playing against wse he just rapes your economy by decapping your naturals.

no-name wrote:you will never be behind eldar in tech unless the eldar is dominating you from the get-go. the energy requirements for eldar are just too high for that.

No lies please. Ok, thx.


Something else; Dark Reapers:

Lulgrim wrote:Not sure if fx bug or damage bug, but either way DR have heavy infantry armor.

Never really agreed with the addition of these guys.
At least put them in T3 and make them have normal infantry armor?
With all that plasma damage they even work as soft av.
(Even better with their AV upgrade.) Very threatening for transports.

Eldar has enough ways to deal with (S)HI. Never understood the complains that they don't have enough ways to deal with them.

you will never be behind eldar in tech unless the eldar is dominating you from the get-go. the energy requirements for eldar are just too high for that.

LOL, it's not like you drop 3 gens 20 seconds into the game or something right?

100% agree on Reapers. They're ridiculous, eldar didn't need them. Eldar t2 is far stronger than space marine t3 atm assuming both players invest in their t2s. Space marine generally tried to stall until they could get their t3 steamroll thing going, but in doing that they risked losing their farm and map control while going t3 and hence the game. Now it's rather silly, sm stay in t2 so they lose, or if sm go t3, they are repelled by eldar t2. I think it's missing a fundamental point of the MU. SM=Eldar t1. SM < Eldar t2. SM > eldar t3.

It's not even just SM though, eldar have ample SHI counters. Ogryns can be suppressed and IG get no jump troops, just suppress ogryns -> WG. Entangle -> WG. WL. Falcon inf kiting, grenades, shees, doom, ample room to maneuver around SHI.

There is also warpthrow as a melee counter, when they charge in you just push them back and done, you have all the time to re-setup or get enough ranged damage on them.

I'm so fucking tired of you space marines whiners. I've just about had enough of your bullshit by now. In-matter of fact, it's always the same people with their same reasoning and one loop-sided arguements about shit they don't like. Yet, they won't even bring any issues about their main "faction" eventho it's as clear as day there's some troubles there.

Eldar has enough ways to deal with (S)HI. Never understood the complains that they don't have enough ways to deal with them

Because they really struggled against Terminators and Ogryns, that's why. I'm not even going to bother explaining this, because it's fucking pointless. It's not like Dark Reapers are 0 pop, 0 cost investment and can just be slapped onto some builds without repercussions.

I spoke to plenty of really good players, who have a weight in gold in terms of balance evaluation when it mattered for the game, and Dark Reapers were good on paper, and it went along. They're staying the same, and I have no interest in making any changes to webways anytime soon.