2.4.2 Hotfix - No notes , but details included

[egewithin]

I'm not defending GK here one single bit - hate on them all you want, nerf them to oblivion etc. It's all good with me.

Having said that, for what it's worth, I fielded a total of 2 paladin squads and 1 terminator squad against an IG player (naturally not at the same time) but he won. He killed them all pretty quickly by massed focused ranged firepower (tons of guardsmen plus whatever elite tier infantry IG gets - stormtroopers? karsikin?), an ogyrn squad, and a melee hero with powerfist or powerclaw or whatever it is (I clicked on the hero to figure out what was doing all the damage). Not sure the exact hero he used, but I think it may have been the one with the power shield. It wasn't the inquisitor, anyway.

The point is, it worked for him, so try it out and see if it works for you. I'm not arguing that GK isn't OP, I'm just throwing out what's worked against me in the past.

If dakka is not solving you problem, bring more dakka! Ork style.

Btw, it is Commisar Lord that uses Claw and fist.

[enasni127]

I'm not defending GK here one single bit - hate on them all you want, nerf them to oblivion etc. It's all good with me.

Having said that, for what it's worth, I fielded a total of 2 paladin squads and 1 terminator squad against an IG player (naturally not at the same time) but he won. He killed them all pretty quickly by massed focused ranged firepower (tons of guardsmen plus whatever elite tier infantry IG gets - stormtroopers? karsikin?), an ogyrn squad, and a melee hero with powerfist or powerclaw or whatever it is (I clicked on the hero to figure out what was doing all the damage). Not sure the exact hero he used, but I think it may have been the one with the power shield. It wasn't the inquisitor, anyway.

The point is, it worked for him, so try it out and see if it works for you. I'm not arguing that GK isn't OP, I'm just throwing out what's worked against me in the past.

i have to assume that you didnt try to melee his troops and did not use teleport to reach him at all. it's ofcourse only my experience but i just cant counter them with range blobs cause i cannot control their melee units cause they are immune to supression AND knock back. ogryns vs terminators is usually more to bind the termies for a short moment and it's usually better for the GK just to ignore the ogryns and attack the range blob

[Hellstar]

i have to assume that you didnt try to melee his troops and did not use teleport to reach him at all. it's ofcourse only my experience but i just cant counter them with range blobs cause i cannot control their melee units cause they are immune to supression AND knock back. ogryns vs terminators is usually more to bind the termies for a short moment and it's usually better for the GK just to ignore the ogryns and attack the range blob

Yes I used teleport to reach him. And I can ignore ogryns and heroes and whatever else, but it doesn't mean they ignore me.

Also there's only so many squads a terminator/paladin will be able to melee. While that's going on, your ranged blob (or whatever part of it which isn't tied up in melee) will be able to shoot.

Again, not saying it will work for you or anyone else. But it worked against me.

Stuff happens so fast in battle it's hard to say for sure what was doing the majority of the damage, but it looked like the power claw on the hero was doing a lot, and there were some squads firing with... I believe it was plasma guns. But that's just what I noticed. There was probably other stuff I didn't notice.

[enasni127]

i have to assume that you didnt try to melee his troops and did not use teleport to reach him at all. it's ofcourse only my experience but i just cant counter them with range blobs cause i cannot control their melee units cause they are immune to supression AND knock back. ogryns vs terminators is usually more to bind the termies for a short moment and it's usually better for the GK just to ignore the ogryns and attack the range blob

Yes I used teleport to reach him. And I can ignore ogryns and heroes and whatever else, but it doesn't mean they ignore me.

Also there's only so many squads a terminator/paladin will be able to melee. While that's going on, your ranged blob (or whatever part of it which isn't tied up in melee) will be able to shoot.

Again, not saying it will work for you or anyone else. But it worked against me.

Stuff happens so fast in battle it's hard to say for sure what was doing the majority of the damage, but it looked like the power claw on the hero was doing a lot, and there were some squads firing with... I believe it was plasma guns. But that's just what I noticed. There was probably other stuff I didn't notice.

yeah, i absolutely know that feeling. sometimes it's just mind blowing how many things happen and have to be dealt with at the same time. what i still don't understand is how many squads this guy had. i mean, you had your captain, 3 termies and probably some t1/t2 units and yet you couldn't bind his range units completely? i'm just curious cause i suck hard vs GK atm ;D

[Hellstar]

what i still don't understand is how many squads this guy had.

He had a big-ass blob. IG players tend to have those, I've noticed.

i mean, you had your captain, 3 termies

Oh no. Like I said above, I "naturally didn't field all these at the same time" meaning termies and paladins were deployed 1-at-a-time (not on the field at the same time).

and probably some t1/t2 units and yet you couldn't bind his range units completely? i'm just curious cause i suck hard vs GK atm ;D

No I never had enough stuff to bind his ranged units completely. His melee hero would always counter-initiate, ogryns would always counter-initiate, he ran 2 sentinals at once all the way through mid-game and they'd always stomp all over everything. I made a melee dread and he killed that so amazingly fast I didn't even know what did the damage. Had to consult the replay and found it was some specialist squad with anti-vehicle capability. A rocket-launcher or melta-gun? Can't remember - you tell me.

[enasni127]

No I never had enough stuff to bind his ranged units completely. His melee hero would always counter-initiate, ogryns would always counter-initiate, he ran 2 sentinals at once all the way through mid-game and they'd always stomp all over everything. I made a melee dread and he killed that so amazingly fast I didn't even know what did the damage. Had to consult the replay and found it was some specialist squad with anti-vehicle capability. A rocket-launcher or melta-gun? Can't remember - you tell me.

probably it was a squad of melta storm troopers, they do great damage vs terminators (cause they are unit type "large", just like vehicles) but are easy to bind in melee cause of their low range.

my main problem is maybe that i'm often behind from the beginning on vs gk or at least when we hit t2. in your case the ig seemed to have an advantage from the beginning on so i'd say it might be some "skill-related" problem on my side, which is more satisfying than gk being op imo.

[Lichtbringer]

Caeltos, I have a question^^
I don't want to complain or anything, I am just interested.
Actually I am happy you found a way to let Rangers keep their supression.

But, why did you put the price increase into the baseversion of the ranger, and didn't put it on the upgrade?
Is it because of the buffed Kineticpulse?


Also, I would like to add, that I feel a singleranger is not that strong with the supression, because it mostly takes 3 shots to apply it, and then the enemy is shortly unsupressed between shots. Is the price increase targeted at doubleranger, or did you also think a singleranger was to cheap with the new changes?

I just saw your post in the Raptor thread, and I hope I didn't come across as demanding answers. I am just honestly interested in gamedesign. In addition to that, I know that I don't know enough about the game/are not good enough. When I say I don't know if 1 Ranger alone is viable I mean that not as "oh, maybe I just don't know how to use it Kappa. I am just saying that so that I look better"/"I post this in Strategy and not balance, and ask how to beat it, but really I already made my mind up, and just want to show everyone that its OP" I mean it honestly.
While I am clearly Eldar-biased, I hope I can keep it out of design discussions. It is no sneaky way to get you to buff them, I am really interested in your thoughts on the matter, and on the game, so that I can follow your design thoughts and even get better at the game.

If you have no time to answer, I totally respect that. Even if you don't want to answer because you think it will be missunderstood or because of other reasons I understand it. I just want you to know that all my questions are simply because I look up to you, and the task of balancing/designing the balance of a game like this. Nothing would make me sadder then to think you perceive it as demanding your time or answers.
I thought those disscusions, if made in a friendly manner would also be fun for you, but I now understand that its something different when you have to deal with a competitive community that all look at everything your say. (even if the community is so small, or maybe because of it?)