Dawn of War Codex

With all due respect I've been playing Retribution since beta, and Elite since 2.0.6 which was over a year ago. I'm one of the more experienced players in Elite mod and I know what I'm talking about, your "suggestions" doesn't just break Tau lore it's also horrible to the balance of the game.

Yes of course I know Lore is second to balance but that doesn't mean we have to make a ridiculous race that will look like some horrible abomination, that doesn't even look like the Tau Empire from 40k.

Your suggestions for one about leaping gun drones in this engine seems OP.
Most of sk4zi's suggestions would be a terrible implementation into the balance of the game as well as having nothing to do with 40k Lore.
Don't try to lecture me on compromising as long as you have no idea of what you're talking about. My outcry against you is just as much for Tau lore as it is for the balance of the game.

Anyone with any sense of balance in this game can see your suggestions is outrageous and game breaking.

With all due respect I've been playing Retribution since beta, and Elite since 2.0.6 which was over a year ago. I'm one of the more experienced players in Elite mod and I know what I'm talking about, your "suggestions" doesn't just break Tau lore it's also horrible to the balance of the game. (...)

OK, first of all, Shas'el, also judging by your name, you like Tau. That is a fact, but you can't make everyone agree with you just because you are an "experienced player". Everyone can and will say what they think the Tau should be like. If you take a look at my original post (the one that started all this) and then at the responces, you will see tons of suggestions that I haven't considered. I'm sure that some of then are good, some not so good. But everyone spoke their mind and told what they thought was the best.

Also, just because the lore says so it doesn't have to be done in the game. One instance is what SecureHades said about the SMs. Another thing: By the lore Tyranids are the race with the most numbers, constantly bringing more troops to the ground. In a lore instance they Tyranids drowned an entire Imperial planet with Rippers. Can you do that in the game? No. They overpower with numbers. Have you tried to spam Termagants in T1? It won't work because the moment a walker/vehicle appears you are screwed. Heck, in the tabltetop they are able to galance a Dread to death from behind. Can you do that in the game? No.

Anyway, this is an open forum, so everyone can say what they think it's best for the occasion. If you dont agree with that, too bad for you, you need to work on your attitude

Also just out of curiosity, do you play tabletop (or own the Tau codex for that matter)?

No I do not play the Tabletop but I have the latest 2 Tau codices and I've read them thoroughly.

Termagants are the ranged ones Hormagaunts are the melee ones.

Finally got me hands on a copy of the new Tau Codex (6th ED) :3 yeey ^^

Anyways, I was wondering that what units would be in the T1-T3 lineup and which one would be need to be left out? There are some iconic Tau Empire units that also make up the backbone of the army, that would look silly to left out xD

We talked out T1 already to death I think xD
As I can see, most people here would like to see Pathfinders, Kroot Carnivores, Fire Warriors and perhaps a Gun Drone Squadron (as a fast suppression unit), which would round out the tau nicely I think

But what about T2 and 3?

T2 would need to introduce a transport, thats covered with the Devilfish Also specialised units, like Crysis teams and Broadside (walking artillery ftw ^^). I think the Stealth suits should also appear in T2, similar to the Ork Kommando (if I'm recalling it accurate, they are T2...? not playing Ork so not sure ^^;).
Mmmm a sub-commander is also due here, but seriously I have a hard time to name a unit, aside of the Kroot Shaper and the Etherial... A Vespid Elder Stingwing or a Fire Warrior Fireblade would be another candidate, but seriously, Tau lack in the unique solo unit department :/ That, and the Etherial is a hell lot important in Tau society/army. The death of an Etherial completely cripples or drives tau into a battle frenzy. Thats why I think Etherials are more Commander unit material, similar how the Eldar Farseers work Plus, its either a Fire Caste Shas'O or an Etherial who leads the army ^^;


T3 introduces the heavy duty :3 Hammerhead, Sky Ray Gunship (usually with missle loadout) are two iconic tau tanks. The super unit would be the Greater Knarloc I assume Or perhaps the new Riptide? Not sure what else would fit in T3

The only units that are left are:
Kroot Hounds, Krootox, Sniper Drone team, Piranha, Vespid Stingwings...mmm thats it ^^ Not sure where these would be good... The Gun Drone Squadron can be switched out with the Vespids perhaps ? Krootox and Piranha could be T3, Kroot Hounds T2... not sure.


Opinions ? And apologise if not all my ideas are correct, I'm just an enthusiastic player + artist =)

Kilgarn wrote:Mmmm a sub-commander is also due here

Loldar have an Autarch as "sub-commander"...

Lulgrim wrote:

Kilgarn wrote:Mmmm a sub-commander is also due here

Loldar have an Autarch as "sub-commander"...

Good point
I've really forgotten that ^^ In that sense, Etherial could work

i think it really has to be an ethereal; there's a lot of potential for synergy there as well as fluff agreement.

Shas'el Doran'ro wrote:With all due respect I've been playing Retribution since beta, and Elite since 2.0.6 which was over a year ago. I'm one of the more experienced players in Elite mod and I know what I'm talking about, your "suggestions" doesn't just break Tau lore it's also horrible to the balance of the game.

Yes of course I know Lore is second to balance but that doesn't mean we have to make a ridiculous race that will look like some horrible abomination, that doesn't even look like the Tau Empire from 40k.

Your suggestions for one about leaping gun drones in this engine seems OP.
Most of sk4zi's suggestions would be a terrible implementation into the balance of the game as well as having nothing to do with 40k Lore.
Don't try to lecture me on compromising as long as you have no idea of what you're talking about. My outcry against you is just as much for Tau lore as it is for the balance of the game.

Anyone with any sense of balance in this game can see your suggestions is outrageous and game breaking.

Hail shasel ... you are talking about respect, and show the opposite, mister experience.

i actually play DOW since the beta of part 1. with every addon and all time. i also played the TT game for years, mister rouge. I even played Tau in TT aside with many other races. it has been quite a while ago thou.
actually you talk about what you DONT want.
but just waiting for others suggestions and then denying them isn´t very smart.

i think its your turn to post a suggestion now to stay credibly

ah, and a T3 battlesuit helps not at this point
quite obivous to implement them as T3 heavy support, isnt it

i could also say: "ohh i have an idea, what if a Hammerhead tank is T3 and has heavy firepower?"
- smart ,eh?

i mean post a working T1 which is not OP then we can contiune on par.

T2 and 3 is also nessecary, but i think first of all you need a working T1.

needet is:
- a stanadrd sqaud, that does damage
- a supression and garrison counter
- a melee counter
- something to kill gens
- some crowd controll like supression

additionally i think tau should have:

- have good range damage
- a problem with melee
- many sneeky things
- markerlight stuff
- drone stuff

thats why im assuming Vespides in T2 would make the Tau playstyle more like it was in tt when i played them. having huge firepower potential, but almost no melee.

It all depends on which direction Caeltos wishes to take with the Tau. It would be far more productive if we just wait for him to announce his initial ideas with regards to how the race will play out, and which units should go where and what they do etc, and then follow up with our advice to alter x and x.

Will tau be a cheap and cheerful version of eldar, without the control abilities, but high mobility and more ranged potency?
Will they be like a ranged version of Orks, shall they have to commit to an engagement once it starts if they want to win in the long run (doubt it, because GK are already like this).
How will they differ from IG?
Will they have flexible AV?
Which builds will be best supported by hero wargear?

etc.

Last note to go with Torpids, Personally i dont see the need for there to be a subcommander, Tau dont really have any good characters that serve as specialized 1 man units (other than suits). I rather have no sub commander than one that seems forced just so that there is one. I mean Librarian doesnt see much play, autarch to my knowledge doesnt see much (havent played/watched any eldar games recently). Only sub commander that sees play is wierdboy/painboy, so just rather have no subcommander like chaos/nids/IG than a forced one.

sk4zi wrote: Lot of stuff ^^

Hm the possible units that could work in T1, after reading though the ideas here, in my opinion

Kroot Carnivores:
- melee/setup team counter
- fast, agile, could see a leaping like ability, similar that hormas get under synapse
- roughly on par with slugga boys in str and perhaps in numbers too
- sneak-like ability upgrade(either like Catas or like scouts, but the latter can be slightly op, since its a melee squad), comes with kroot shaper perhaps ?
- could get heavy melee dmg, so they can work on the gens (another similarity to catas)

Pathfinders:
- they are the tau scout marine equvalent :3
- they work exacly like scout marines, same role, just adding in marking units
- would be nice to see a granade like ability for them to deal with garrisons (upgrade, like all anti-garrison stuff, comes with the shas'ui perhaps ?)

Gun Drone Squadron:
- suppression team/AV(in T2)
- works like a mobile setup team with no setup time (similar as the GK one)
- missle drone upgrade -> AV, T2 upgrade, similar like the Rokkit, just accurate gains setup time
- not sure if adding jump jets on these would break the game?

Fire Warriors:
- basically what Shas'el said ^^
- the standard shooting unit ^^ on par with SM tac marines
- slightly higher range and perhaps slight dmg boost over a Tac, but its risky, it can kick the game balance on the nuts. No melee skill/dmg whatsoever, glass cannon.
- I dont see the point of a setup time. They'd lose all their mobility thats necessry to keep up with the flow of combat for a normal shotting squad (imagine if Tacs get a setup time... xD same stuff)
- normal piercing dmg, so no QQ about plasma dmg in T1 xD
- Shield or Gun drone upgrade, granade?


How does this sound sk4zi? :3

That Torpid Gamer wrote:It all depends on which direction Caeltos wishes to take with the Tau. It would be far more productive if we just wait for him to announce his initial ideas with regards to how the race will play out, and which units should go where and what they do etc, and then follow up with our advice to alter x and x.

Will tau be a cheap and cheerful version of eldar, without the control abilities, but high mobility and more ranged potency?
Will they be like a ranged version of Orks, shall they have to commit to an engagement once it starts if they want to win in the long run (doubt it, because GK are already like this).
How will they differ from IG?
Will they have flexible AV?
Which builds will be best supported by hero wargear?

etc.

LOL - do you wanna shuffle out with that?
really if you dont post anything constructive, i am going to just ignore your posts in the future.
actually this is a brain storming thread, it´s name is "Ideas"
seems that you dont have any idea.
to pin the way to go on caeltos is just proving that.
maybe he wants see the ideas and then go into one of them?
of course with own influence.
last but not least, he actually did that allready:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=221&start=20#p6345

Tau are maybe a hit and Run Race, but the Firewarriors are not.
its the Crisis guys who turn this race into this.

look at chaos.
actually its a beastly race with huge sustain and wheapons but really little number of models.
what is it in DOW2 T1 ?
mega squishy with Hero... (Tics) at least in the first few engagements.

imho tau should can hit and run as soon as you hit T2 ... before ... run (ok kidding)
but actually you dont need to have everything available at the beginning.

just to figure out how i ment the set-up FW to play...

lets say you get 2 of them.

you kite with one and with the light supression you can shoot with the other squad.
so the chasing one becomes supressed after a short time and even the first squad can turn around and fire with even more heavy damage and supression.
also if they have supression (like incinerators) they can just fire at a charging squad to counter melee...

but anyway... the setuptime was maybe really a bit over the top. (also to kilgarn - was lucky to need really long to post this - so i recognized your post)
so let´s say no Fire on the move ...
and i need to apologize for just knowing the "Kauyon (Way of the Patient Hunter)" most probably, this was the first way in the first codex of tau which i played

so maybe they need 3 heroes, providing the 3 Strategys mentioned
here

last but not least, i was not talking about crisis yet... they are fast, can jump almost like warpspiders or lets say melta Raptors with many options.
but one after the other.

@Kilgarn

i actually dont like adding the Kroot as such a standard unit because then you have a kroot, Firewarrior, Firewarrior -build which is orange orks...
in my humble opinion it should be a big effort to get melee for Tau.
but if kroot cost power for example, they are just bad... so melee for T2 (was my idea - its btw the same with IG)

but to be honest, i dont know the kroot role in the tau army right now. when i was playing Tau in TT they were much like hormagaunts or vanilla orks just cannon fodder with the ability to infiltrate. - really bad.. no reason tu use them ... for sure they were patched in the newer codizie

maybe shas´o can give a short view what kroots are and should be.

also the drone squad seems to be good, but not stylish
dont know what to do with them.

i really liked the way ghost suites worked in DOW1 being infiltrated all the time with almost no dmg but jump - they were the best cap units in the game (and the tau starting unit)
although infiltration works different in Dow 2 it would be very cool - and uniqe - to have an infiltrating range jump unit.
they also providet - along with the vespides - the mobility for Tau

i think its possible to make this race playing out different to the others, but then you actuall can not say
pathfinders should be like scouts and Firewarriors should be like Tacs and kroot should be like vanilla sluggas etc. they need to be different.


like mentioned above ... the setup time is not nessecary - it just would make the felling to play them really different to the other races which was the purpose for my sugestion.

Termagants are the ranged ones Hormagaunts are the melee ones.

I meant from shooting at the rear armor, sorry for not clarifying that.

If we drop the Drones, what will the Tau have for suppression? (If they are to get any). Through the Fire Warriors maybe?

I think we should leave the Gun Drones as suppression squad. Since they could get missle drones, similarly to other setup teams (normal + AV choice)
Making the Fire Warriors do the suppression... not a good idea ^^;

Interestingly enough, Tau dont have a dedicated setup team, like IG, SM, CSM...
Closest you get is the pinning fire ability in Tabletop on the Pulse Carbine (I think... can be wrong). Tau fighting style revolves around hit-and-run.
I think the best bet is the Gun Drones or suppression via pathfinders marker light


As for T1 unit lineup...
Kroot Carnivores, Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Gun Drones...
Vespid... ? maybe... could work as a jump troop similar to Raptor, just ranged
kroot hound... erm T2 material...
Krootox? ... naah, definitely not T1 material...
Piranha... perhaps... would work as the IG walker
Stealth team... perhaps, with pulse wepapons, and in T2 they could get Fusion blasters + EMP nade making them a tank hunter ^^
Sniper Drone team... actually works nice! Similarly as an eldar ranger :3 nearly forgot these ^^ my fave units from tabletop Tau :3

Aside of these, the mechs + tanks remain

I have asked before, but what is the point of having a T1 ranged jump unit? You can't really tie thing up with it. If the Vespids are melee based, then I would go for them 100%.

About the Sniper Drones, I like the idea, but what about the unit models? If you want to go codex-wise, then you need a Spotter. So I think it's a bit hard to make that happen, since the sniper is "heavy" weapon and always dies last. It would be hilarious though to watch a Tau Spotter being turned into a drone.

ranged jump squads are melee counters, like warp spiders. they can also be used to tie squads up in an emergency, such as plats. i'm not sure how valuable they'd be in t1 though; probably have to try it and find out.

you could make the sargent die last and simply make the squad useless when the last drone died. it would certainly be different from current squads.

I think that in T1 a ranged jump unit wouldn't be able to do much. Of course there are always unexepected results, so I agree it should be tried out.

About the drones, is that actually possible to make? If yes, it's a nice idea.

fok12 wrote:I think that in T1 a ranged jump unit wouldn't be able to do much. Of course there are always unexepected results, so I agree it should be tried out.

About the drones, is that actually possible to make? If yes, it's a nice idea.

Em asm are able to do a shitload of job, raptors/interceptors too.

Kvek wrote:

fok12 wrote:I think that in T1 a ranged jump unit wouldn't be able to do much. Of course there are always unexepected results, so I agree it should be tried out.

About the drones, is that actually possible to make? If yes, it's a nice idea.

Em asm are able to do a shitload of job, raptors/interceptors too.

Since when are asm/raptors a ranged unit?

Dark Riku wrote:

Kvek wrote:

fok12 wrote:I think that in T1 a ranged jump unit wouldn't be able to do much. Of course there are always unexepected results, so I agree it should be tried out.

About the drones, is that actually possible to make? If yes, it's a nice idea.

Em asm are able to do a shitload of job, raptors/interceptors too.

Since when are asm/raptors a ranged unit?

lol XD

Dark Riku wrote:

Kvek wrote:

fok12 wrote:I think that in T1 a ranged jump unit wouldn't be able to do much. Of course there are always unexepected results, so I agree it should be tried out.

About the drones, is that actually possible to make? If yes, it's a nice idea.

Em asm are able to do a shitload of job, raptors/interceptors too.

Since when are asm/raptors a ranged unit?

Nailed it x) ^^ XD

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:you could make the sargent die last and simply make the squad useless when the last drone died. it would certainly be different from current squads.

Could be nice if reinforcing Drones just works a bit differently than actual Tau ( Kroot ) models.

Like the LG Bodyguard, you can just re-buy them on the field.
Or maybe they get some "drone beacon" or a drone global that reinforces them.

hmm k make tau same like sm then ...
hf ^^

Caeltos we've talked about why you can't use the full Tau Commander DLC assets but I'm interested in just what of the assets you would use?
I know you've used minor tracer animations like the blue flames on Grey Knight Purgation squad/strike squad/Interceptors,
and the 'Anti Armor missile pod' tracers on the Dark Reapers Tempest barrage and a few of the icons for abilities/upgrades.
So I'm interested in what more assets would you be okay in using?

Model Assets are not.
What about animations? If you used the Tau Commander's movement/jumpjet animation and firing animation for your own Crisis suit model? Would that be okay?

Or other weapon tracers like the Burst cannon, plasma rifle and Fusion blaster?

I don't think those things were lifted from the Tau DLC. They have the means to edit visual effects especially something as simple as a colour change.

I think that it's fine to get some stuff off the Tau DLC, as long as you own it, as support has been dropped, but I understand your hesitation, no one likes a lawsuit infront of their door for using copyrighted material .

I don't think they fear a lawsuit, but rather SEGA/Relic saying simply "Don't do that". Then you're left with all your work going out the window and scrambling for people to make models rather than planning for that from the start.

you can always ignore them but then it becomes possible to face legal action. personally though, unless i get served i'm not going to care much what they say.

Anyways, I think it would be a good idea if we all took a break from posting balance and roster requests at this time, until we see what Caeltos' team have been up to.